Criss Cross Poker?
Quote: LowRollinMountaineer Casino in West Virginia is advertising a new game called Criss Cross Poker, has anyone seen this yet?
http://www.moreatmountaineer.com/gaming/table-games/
Nope, but you can read about it here.
Quote: IbeatyouracesLooks like a double variation of Mississippi Stud.
It looks exactly like Mississippi Stud except a Flush and a Full House pay better and there are two possible hands.
In other words, you walk into the bathroom, flush as much money down every toilet possible, and hope the whole bathroom explodes and rains cash.
Quote: hwccdealerIt looks exactly like Mississippi Stud except a Flush and a Full House pay better and there are two possible hands.
In other words, you walk into the bathroom, flush as much money down every toilet possible, and hope the whole bathroom explodes and rains cash.
haha yeah
I really like playing MS stud but you can blow through $100 very quickly even at a $5 table
Have to give him major props for his ability to stay independent with several games and get them placed in multiple locations.....that takes a lot of time on the road selling your games as well as the imagination to create interesting games.
My full page should be ready later today.
On the paytable at the bottom, shouldn't the right-most column say Down & Across Bets Pay instead of Raise & Across Bets Pay?
Quote: BTLWIhttps://wizardofodds.com/games/criss-cross-poker/
On the paytable at the bottom, shouldn't the right-most column say Down & Across Bets Pay instead of Raise & Across Bets Pay?
Actually, it should say "Raise & Middle Bets Pay." The Ante bets, known as the Ante Across and Ante Down, never pay more than 1 to 1. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Quote: AyecarumbaI note that some columns on the Full Expected Value" table, (e.g., "Combinations", "Probability" and "Return") of several winning hands (e.g., Across = Loser, Down = Flush) appear incomplete. Is the analysis continuing, or is it on purpose?
Those situations never happen. I hate how Excel uses a hypen for zero if you format cells to use comma formatted numbers.
If I take those situations out of the table, then I guarantee everybody and his brother will ask about those situations and why they aren't addressed.
As always, I welcome all comments, questions, and especially corrections.
Quote: WizardThose situations never happen. I hate how Excel uses a hypen for zero if you format cells to use comma formatted numbers.
If I take those situations out of the table, then I guarantee everybody and his brother will ask about those situations and why they aren't addressed.
EDIT: Read the strategy closer, and understand that it only includes 1x and 3x raises, which is why the 1,1,1 raise situation is not a recommended play.
Quote: WizardI hate how Excel uses a hypen for zero if you format cells to use comma formatted numbers.
I recommend formatting the cells manually as follows:
1) Highlight the cell(s) you want to format
2) Right-click the highlighted area
3) Choose "Format Cells..." from the menu
4) Choose Number as the Category
5) Change Decimal places to 0
6) Check the box to use the 1000 Separator
7) Click OK
Instead of steps 2 and 3 you can also press Alt, O, E.
Quote: AyecarumbaPerhaps I am reading the info card wrong, but isn't a bet of 2X units part of the "1x - 3x" option? If so, does that make a difference in the strategy?
Yes. However, as I say in the strategy section, the player should never bet anything between 1x and 3x, for much the same reason one should never double for less in blackjack.
Quote:Also, I think it would be quite possible for someone to bet 1,1,1 and have a losing "across" and a flush "up and down", because of the way the bets have to be placed prior to turning of the cards on each of the three rounds.
I would argue if the player had four to a flush on either hand then he should make the 3x bet on the Middle.
Quote:For example, if I am drawing dead on the across, but am four to a flush with no straight flush possibility after the two "up and down" cards are revealed, would I always make the max bet on the middle card? Is that why you say the 1,1,1, bet would never happen in this situation?
Yes and yes.
Quote: WizardYes. However, as I say in the strategy section, the player should never bet anything between 1x and 3x, for much the same reason one should never double for less in blackjack.
I would argue if the player had four to a flush on either hand then he should make the 3x bet on the Middle.
Yes and yes.
Thanks Wizard! One last question, Does the middle bet only pay once if you happen have winning horizontal and veritical hands?
Net loss on the hand: 67.4%
Net win on the hand: 21.9%
Net Push on the hand: 4.9%
Win/Loss events occurring less than 1% of the time: 5.8%
This seems like a pretty rough experience from the player's perspective, I am surprised the standard deviation is only 1/2 that of Miss. Stud.
On 45.8% of hands you lose between 3 - 5 units.
An overall hit rate (considering all bets in the hand) of around 1 in 4 hands seems really tough for a main game experience.
Maybe I haven't calc'd this correctly.......like it even matters, the game has some installs and the playing public's opinion is worth a lot more than my banter here :-).
Quote: HunterhillThanks for taking the time to do this analysis. Interesting how you 3x raise JQ suited in this game but not in Mississippi stud even though you can get more money on the table in stud.Also it seems you only fold 2,3 2,4 2,5 3,4 3,5 and 4,5 .
Higher flush/straight payouts than Mississippi Stud.
And let me get this straight, you can fold one of these across or down hands and play the other to completion?
Like say you have 6, 2 which is strong enough to play across, and then make a pair of 6s from the across community cards. Are you able to fold the down bet and still win or push on the across and middle bets? In most games, if you fold at all, you're out. Period.
Anyone want to venture a guess for an approximate middle strategy for now?
Quote: AyecarumbaThanks Wizard! One last question, Does the middle bet only pay once if you happen have winning horizontal and veritical hands?
11. The Middle Bet pays according to the higher ranking of the Across and Down hands.
Quote: AyecarumbaThanks Wizard! One last question, Does the middle bet only pay once if you happen have winning horizontal and veritical hands?
You're welcome. Yes, the middle bet pays once only, based on the higher of the two hands.
Quote: ParadigmI quickly tabulated the following off the original full expected value table using events that occur at least 1% of the time (e.g. all events that happen roughly every 100 hands):
Net loss on the hand: 67.4%
Net win on the hand: 21.9%
Net Push on the hand: 4.9%
Win/Loss events occurring less than 1% of the time: 5.8%
This seems like a pretty rough experience from the player's perspective, I am surprised the standard deviation is only 1/2 that of Miss. Stud.
On 45.8% of hands you lose between 3 - 5 units.
An overall hit rate (considering all bets in the hand) of around 1 in 4 hands seems really tough for a main game experience.
Maybe I haven't calc'd this correctly.......like it even matters, the game has some installs and the playing public's opinion is worth a lot more than my banter here :-).
I think his SD numbers are based upon the total initial bet, which is double a MS Stud game.
And it's a rough game for sure, but MS Stud is similar, and is quite popular. People probably get hooked on winning up to $2k for a quad on only a $5 ante bet.
Quote: tringlomaneI think his SD numbers are based upon the total initial bet, which is double a MS Stud game.
They are.
Quote:And it's a rough game for sure, but MS Stud is similar, and is quite popular. People probably get hooked on winning up to $2k for a quad on only a $5 ante bet.
It isn't often I fully analyze a game I've never played, which is the case here. So it is hard to comment on the fun factor. I tend to think a win frequency of about 30% to 40% is about right for a poker-based game, to allow for the possibility of big wins.
Quote: tringlomaneAnd let me get this straight, you can fold one of these across or down hands and play the other to completion?
No. If you fold you're out of the whole thing.
Quote:Like say you have 6, 2 which is strong enough to play across, and then make a pair of 6s from the across community cards. Are you able to fold the down bet and still win or push on the across and middle bets? In most games, if you fold at all, you're out. Period.
No. In that case you would have to make the small raise on the Down hand to preserve the win on the Across hand. Once you fold you're out.
Quote: WizardIt isn't often I fully analyze a game I've never played, which is the case here. So it is hard to comment on the fun factor. I tend to think a win frequency of about 30% to 40% is about right for a poker-based game, to allow for the possibility of big wins.
I came up with no more than about 25% of hands that provide a net win, which feels a bit lean. But then again, there are some 7 - 11 unit wins to compensate for the lower hit rate.....that may be enough to keep 'em coming back.
Quote: ParadigmI came up with no more than about 25% of hands that provide a net win, which feels a bit lean. But then again, there are some 7 - 11 unit wins to compensate for the lower hit rate.....that may be enough to keep 'em coming back.
Have any board members played it? I'd be interested in a report.
Quote: deanandmariaI believe Planet Hollywood has the first install in Vegas - they have a table on an end-cap (used to be a 3 Card Poker Table) in party pit roulette area. I spent about six hours at the table on Saturday and had a lot of fun. A lot of people were being trained on dealing the game, but the floor man I spoke with said both the drop and the hold have exceeded expectations to date.
Its funny, When i spoke to the people operating the game, they told me the game is always dead... And for the two hours i lingered to see what if any action was going to come, not a single person sat down. This was after the game had supposedly been on the floor for several weeks..
Quote: ParadigmAgree on the Miss Stud comment.....that also hits about 25% of the time.
I feel that 25% is way to low for a base game. I used to really like miss stud at first but after more than a few sessions where i literally lost every hand on 400 i rarely will ever sit down at the game anymore. When it comes to criss cross, it has even more wagers then miss stud, so i feel that eventually the same effect will take place and form other opinions as well. Its a good concept but as you can see by several locations with miss stud, it seems to be losing its fire slowly but surely.
Quote: WizardHave any board members played it? I'd be interested in a report.
I sat at a table for a couple hours or so this afternoon. It's actually a lot of fun. I didn't know the proper strategy, and I couldn't get a decent data connection in the casino to look it up, so I guessed that the best play would be on the initial wager to fold 10-small and lower, 1x 6-7 and higher, and 3x any guaranteed push and higher. I can see I was off a bit.
The minimum bet at Borgata is $5. I was betting $10. I bought in for $100, and eventually used $300.
The downside: it is maddening to have $60 on the table with for example a hand of 9-6 offsuit, and a board of J-7 Down and 2-3 Cross. But a 9 or 6 middle gets a push on both, and a J or 7 pushes the Down hand and wins the Board.
The upside: if you get dealt a good hand you get paid big time. One guy at the table turned Q-Q into a full house with trips on the board, 7-7-7 across. And of course he had $30 on all spots. Twice I was down to my last bets and reached into my pocket to raise a guaranteed push, and won both times. At one point I had A-10 of hearts, and the first two cross cards were Q-J of hearts. I had an inside draw to a Royal! I tripled up my Middle bet, and 1x on my Down bet. The Down cards came up A-Q, and the Middle came up A, so I had 2 pair on the Board, a pair of Aces on Cross, and trips on Down and Middle.
After playing for a couple hours, I cashed out $315. I was up as much as $225, and as much down about the same, the second time I had to go to pocket for another black chip.
The dealers are having a hard time with the game. I saw two different dealers pay 10s rather than push them. In one instance, the dealer swept a player's hand that had a pair of 10s: the player stopped him, expecting a push, and the dealer called the supervisor over, backed up the cards, and then PAID the 10s rather than pushing them, with the supervisor standing there agreeing. This was about 15 minutes after I'd asked the same dealer and super when looking at my hole cards, "10s push, right?" And getting an affirmative. My lips were sealed, it wasn't my hand. The other time, it happened so fast I had to rewind in my mind, but it definitely happened. That player, too, was surprised. I imagine lowering the pay table to pay 10s changes the expected value of the game.
Chit chat around the table about how to play is split. Most players play every hand. Others play similar to how I played. I didn't see anyone getting aggressive with stuff like QJ suited. Everyone recognizes that there is a bet/bankroll situation, where if you want to bet more than $5 a hand you'd better have a big bankroll, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to big a big bankroll to a game like Criss Cross. So, it's pretty much a $5 or $10 ante game, or things get out of hand pretty quickly. One dealer (I experienced 4 of them, playing at 2 separate tables) said that on the board in the back room, Criss Cross has far and away the highest hold in the casino. Players like it, the casino likes it, I think it's here to stay
Quote: mrsuit31It's still new. That high hold low hit is going get old really quick. Of course this is only my opinion. The game is certainly spreading fast.
It's easy to get hooked on it. Mrs came over to watch, and said, "You're playing a game that you don't know the rules for?" And the only thing I could say was, "It's fun!" Later, when it was time to go, I did the "just a couple more hands" three times.
The high hold is going to be because players aren't going to toss 3X on suited QJ and low pairs, and because they won't fold the middle bet after betting 4 units when all is lost, and they'll bet on every hand or they'll be too conservative like I was.
I find Wizard's strategy description somewhat vague. Let's say I hold 9-3 off suit. I 1x raise the Across. The Across cards are flipped, and they are 6-7. According to what is written, I should raise 1x on the Down. Right?
Let's say I hold Ah-10h, 1x raise the Across, and the Across cards come up Qh-Jh. Okay, I should raise 1x on the Down, right? Under what circumstance, excepting paired 6s in hand or higher, should the Down bet be anything other than 1x?
Is there ANY time that the Across cards influence the Down bet? Is there ANY time that the entire hand should be folded after seeing the Across cards, assuming the Across bet is made according to proper strategy? Is there ANY time the Down bet should be 3x after the Across bet was 1x, assuming the same?
And under what circumstances should Middle be folded? Maybe 9-6 unsuited in hand, and an Across of 5-3 and Down of 4-2? That might knock me out, even after a couple 1x raises.
Quote: MoscaIt's easy to get hooked on it. Mrs came over to watch, and said, "You're playing a game that you don't know the rules for?" And the only thing I could say was, "It's fun!" Later, when it was time to go, I did the "just a couple more hands" three times.
The high hold is going to be because players aren't going to toss 3X on suited QJ and low pairs, and because they won't fold the middle bet after betting 4 units when all is lost, and they'll bet on every hand or they'll be too conservative like I was.
I find Wizard's strategy description somewhat vague. Let's say I hold 9-3 off suit. I 1x raise the Across. The Across cards are flipped, and they are 6-7. According to what is written, I should raise 1x on the Down. Right?
Let's say I hold Ah-10h, 1x raise the Across, and the Across cards come up Qh-Jh. Okay, I should raise 1x on the Down, right? Under what circumstance, excepting paired 6s in hand or higher, should the Down bet be anything other than 1x?
Is there ANY time that the Across cards influence the Down bet? Is there ANY time that the entire hand should be folded after seeing the Across cards, assuming the Across bet is made according to proper strategy? Is there ANY time the Down bet should be 3x after the Across bet was 1x, assuming the same?
And under what circumstances should Middle be folded? Maybe 9-6 unsuited in hand, and an Across of 5-3 and Down of 4-2? That might knock me out, even after a couple 1x raises.
Im not trying to say the game isn't fun. The high hold is the result of a 4.3% HA with a horrifically low hit rate in the vicinity of 1 in 4 hands. People on this forum used to tear games like this to absolute shreds.
Quote: mrsuit31Im not trying to say the game isn't fun. The high hold is the result of a 4.3% HA with a horrifically low hit rate in the vicinity of 1 in 4 hands. People on this forum used to tear games like this to absolute shreds.
Wizard rates the element of risk at 1.48%.
My grandfather used to design games, in his spare time. This was in the 40s/50s/60s; he was always looking for the next Monopoly, or Parcheesi, or whatever parlor game was the big hit of the day. He would sketch out the rules, he would cut cards out of heavy stock using an X-acto knife, he cut game pieces out of balsawood, and designed and printed boards. And he would get them patented, and send them off to Parker Brothers and Milton Bradley, and anyone else. He was especially proud of a game called Checkadice, which involved using checkers and dice.
The problem wasn't that his games weren't intricate, or strategic. the problem was that they weren't any fun to play. As kids we used to moan about going to his house because we'd get shown the latest game, and have it tested on us. And god help us when the Checkadice cup came out of the closet.
As a carnival game player, I appreciate more than most the information at WoO; I go to the tables with my eyes open. I understand: if you crave variance, it will cost you. I can sit at a blackjack table with a bunch of jerks and grind out a win using perfect strategy. Or I can sit at a Criss Cross table and hope for the Kh on the middle space. If I wanted to MAKE money, I'd go to work instead of the casino. Come on! King! King! King!
Quote: MoscaWizard rates the element of risk at 1.48%.
My grandfather used to design games, in his spare time. This was in the 40s/50s/60s; he was always looking for the next Monopoly, or Parcheesi, or whatever parlor game was the big hit of the day. He would sketch out the rules, he would cut cards out of heavy stock using an X-acto knife, he cut game pieces out of balsawood, and designed and printed boards. And he would get them patented, and send them off to Parker Brothers and Milton Bradley, and anyone else. He was especially proud of a game called Checkadice, which involved using checkers and dice.
The problem wasn't that his games weren't intricate, or strategic. the problem was that they weren't any fun to play. As kids we used to moan about going to his house because we'd get shown the latest game, and have it tested on us. And god help us when the Checkadice cup came out of the closet.
As a carnival game player, I appreciate more than most the information at WoO; I go to the tables with my eyes open. I understand: if you crave variance, it will cost you. I can sit at a blackjack table with a bunch of jerks and grind out a win using perfect strategy. Or I can sit at a Criss Cross table and hope for the Kh on the middle space. If I wanted to MAKE money, I'd go to work instead of the casino. Come on! King! King! King!
Haha, good story. I can can certainly appreciate that.
As far as EOR goes... I can create a game with a HA of %400, but make the average bet high enough to lower the EOR to virtually anything I want (yes this is a ridiculous example). EOR has been explicitly stated to not be a fair determiner of how a game will perform.
The numbers on the game are virtually identical to Miss Stud, and in my opinion, isnt the game simply Miss stud x2 with a five card community bonus? I personally think so.
I agree with you on trying to get lucky and win big, but you said it yourself in your story that you had to reach into your pocket twice rather quickly. It bothers me to think about the fact that to sit at a $10 table and buy in for $100, there is a chance you will have to drop another hundred to complete that FIRST hand (although you would either be pushing or winning in this case.)
I am personally not a fan of a game where the average bet is in the vicinity of 5 units. Again as always this is just my personal opinion. And keep in mind also, I used to be a fan of Miss Stud at first. Until I started loosing hundreds in a matter of 4-5 hands.
The house edge on these games, IMO, is a waste of discussion. I sent about 12 hours at the MS tables in San Diego over Thanksgiving weekend. What I thought was pretty poor overall strategy being played in Vegas was trumped by absolutely horrific play in SD. People betting quarters, tripling on any two high cards, folding 2 mid cards, chasing straight no matter the starting hand. 2-6 offsuit? Could be a straight!!! This has to be the big advantage for these games.
I'm a fairly big gambler and I rarely if ever will raise by bet above the table minimum for these carnival games. I'm satisfied with the win amount on a big hand playing just a nickel . . . but I want the ability to see many hands and eat some time at the game.
Volatility is the name of the game for some people. I don't play black-jack because I just don't think winning a maximum $37.50 on my $25 bet is an exciting rush. Gambling is entertainment for me, and that's not my style of entertainment. I am willing to sacrifice some house edge for a different and riskier (and potentially more lucrative) experience, and I think there are enough people out there at different levels to support all of these kind of games.
On Criss Cross . . . my wife and I were the biggest losers at the table of six. Two people were up significantly, two others were "treading water" as one can call it. Everyone was having fun, though, and my wife was upset that we didn't make it to PH the following day to play some more.
Quote: mrsuit31Haha, good story. I can can certainly appreciate that.
The numbers on the game are virtually identical to Miss Stud, and in my opinion, isnt the game simply Miss stud x2 with a five card community bonus? I personally think so.
Pretty close in concept, but the playout is different and more interesting.
Quote: mrsuit31I agree with you on trying to get lucky and win big, but you said it yourself in your story that you had to reach into your pocket twice rather quickly. It bothers me to think about the fact that to sit at a $10 table and buy in for $100, there is a chance you will have to drop another hundred to complete that FIRST hand (although you would either be pushing or winning in this case.)
I am personally not a fan of a game where the average bet is in the vicinity of 5 units. Again as always this is just my personal opinion. And keep in mind also, I used to be a fan of Miss Stud at first. Until I started loosing hundreds in a matter of 4-5 hands.
Yeah, I did the double reach. But my initial intent was to only play a couple hands. But but you are correct, the number of units at risk is rough. The way the game plays out, on a fair number of hands you win back a partial. Not being a math guy, I don't have the numbers. As a player, it equates to "I only lost $20 on that one."
Quote: deanandmariaThe house edge on these games, IMO, is a waste of discussion.
Every single table games person will tell you that that statement is ridiculous. Hit rate/HA are incredibly important for the longevity of a game. Again, Im not saying the game isn't fun, for at least a little while. The longer you play, the more likely you are to eventually feel those effects.
I don't mean this to sound as if I am taking shots at you because I do value your opinion as a player. But I think that statement about HA is absurd.
Quote: MoscaYeah, I did the double reach. But my initial intent was to only play a couple hands. But but you are correct, the number of units at risk is rough. The way the game plays out, on a fair number of hands you win back a partial. Not being a math guy, I don't have the numbers. As a player, it equates to "I only lost $20 on that one."
It has a 25% hit rate, you aren't winning partials that often ;) lol
In the end can one person get lucky and hit a huge hand? of course he can. Can someone sit down at virtually any game on the market and get lucky and win big? of course they can. That isnt the point I am attempting to make.
But again this is all coming from me and the game is getting installs, only time will tell the fate of the game.
