Roulette: I'm pulling my hair out!
We own two, 20' roulette tables and 2 32" wheels. Each table has 2 layouts and the wheel rests in the middle. The betting spots are all over-sized to get more bets in from more players (each table can handle about 18 players). It is literally a rock concert with both tables rocking all weekend long in a 10,000 square foot tent!
Here's my issue and, it literally drives me nuts because I want to make as much money for our organization as possible. I'm not the chairman of the event. Rather, I'm just a volunteer that happens to have been around this stuff a little longer than some others. I do my job but it annoys me when people are making bad choices and giving a reason "just because".
At this event, it's real money gambling albeit of the $1-$5 per bet variety. Nothing crazy. Players buy custom made chips from the house and use these chips at all the games, craps, BJ, money wheels, etc. They also use the same chips at roulette. Yes, the exact same chips, either $1 (white) or $5 black. Table minimum is $5 minimum outside (per spot) and $5 minimum inside (any combo) with a max of $5 and any single bet. Plus, all inside payouts are shaved 30%
With everybody using the exact same chip, players typically put out small bets so they can remember where they put their money. Accordingly, we always bark out for players to remember their bets because we (the house) don't. Still, fights break out between players, typically with one player grabbing their chips and leaving the table.
I want to use colored chips. We actually own them, but don't use them.
The justification for not using them is:
- It slows down the game (mucking)
- It increases the house exposure / risk
- Players likely to make fewer but taller bets
To me, this is bunk!
- With a 3 person crew, mucking chips does not slow down the game one second. The mucker stacks chips in the middle as well as spinning and calling the game. It's boring work but, it does NOT slow down the game.
- It does not increase the house exposure/risk because the same house edge/percentage is constant no matter how much money is on the table. It's just that with more money on the table, there may be more to pay out. Conversely, there will also be more money to win at the same time so, it's a push.
- I don't think this will affect outside action whatsoever. It's still a $5 per-spot bet regardless. By having colored chips, it will not encourage players to make more outside bets. It's the inside bets they have trouble remembering.
-- I do think that we'll see smaller inside bets--but lots more of them--probably raising each player's action per spin from $5-$10 with identical/house chips to perhaps $8-$15 using colored chips.
Finally, I am not that concerned about having more money in action. It does not change the house edge whatsoever. Plus, shaving 30% off every inside bet payout, after an 10 hour shift, the house is going to be in the black, big time. Plus, even if one table were to get murdered on a particular night, there is still the other table plus, the event runs for 4 nights.
Thoughts? Should I send Dexter Morgan to go visit the chairman?
As always, thanks.
Quote: RivaPlus, shaving 30% off every inside bet payout
You shave 30%? Wow.
Quote: RivaShould I send Dexter Morgan to go visit the chairman?
Who?
It may sound stupid, but cant you simply have some special different colored logo stickers printed up? Add the different colored stickers to the chips used at the roulette table and have roulette players use them? Just exchange their chips for the sticker ones.Quote: RivaAs I've shared several times, I volunteer at a local school that put on a big charitable gaming event. This year's event just concluded and it was pretty successful generally speaking but a LOT of work over 6 longs days!
We own two, 20' roulette tables and 2 32" wheels. Each table has 2 layouts and the wheel rests in the middle. The betting spots are all over-sized to get more bets in from more players (each table can handle about 18 players). It is literally a rock concert with both tables rocking all weekend long in a 10,000 square foot tent!
Here's my issue and, it literally drives me nuts because I want to make as much money for our organization as possible. I'm not the chairman of the event. Rather, I'm just a volunteer that happens to have been around this stuff a little longer than some others. I do my job but it annoys me when people are making bad choices and giving a reason "just because".
At this event, it's real money gambling albeit of the $1-$5 per bet variety. Nothing crazy. Players buy custom made chips from the house and use these chips at all the games, craps, BJ, money wheels, etc. They also use the same chips at roulette. Yes, the exact same chips, either $1 (white) or $5 black. Table minimum is $5 minimum outside (per spot) and $5 minimum inside (any combo) with a max of $5 and any single bet. Plus, all inside payouts are shaved 30%
With everybody using the exact same chip, players typically put out small bets so they can remember where they put their money. Accordingly, we always bark out for players to remember their bets because we (the house) don't. Still, fights break out between players, typically with one player grabbing their chips and leaving the table.
I want to use colored chips. We actually own them, but don't use them.
The justification for not using them is:
- It slows down the game (mucking)
- It increases the house exposure / risk
- Players likely to make fewer but taller bets
To me, this is bunk!
- With a 3 person crew, mucking chips does not slow down the game one second. The mucker stacks chips in the middle as well as spinning and calling the game. It's boring work but, it does NOT slow down the game.
- It does not increase the house exposure/risk because the same house edge/percentage is constant no matter how much money is on the table. It's just that with more money on the table, there may be more to pay out. Conversely, there will also be more money to win at the same time so, it's a push.
- I don't think this will affect outside action whatsoever. It's still a $5 per-spot bet regardless. By having colored chips, it will not encourage players to make more outside bets. It's the inside bets they have trouble remembering.
-- I do think that we'll see smaller inside bets--but lots more of them--probably raising each player's action per spin from $5-$10 with identical/house chips to perhaps $8-$15 using colored chips.
Finally, I am not that concerned about having more money in action. It does not change the house edge whatsoever. Plus, shaving 30% off every inside bet payout, after an 10 hour shift, the house is going to be in the black, big time. Plus, even if one table were to get murdered on a particular night, there is still the other table plus, the event runs for 4 nights.
Thoughts? Should I send Dexter Morgan to go visit the chairman?
As always, thanks.
Possibly get some colored chip dividers and have the players place that on top of their bets. IE Player A puts two $5 chips on 00 then adds a blue Marker chip on top. Player B adds one $5 chip on 00 on top of the blue marker with his yellow marker chip.
Quote: AxelWolfIt may sound stupid, but cant you simply have some special different colored logo stickers printed up? Add the different colored stickers to the chips used at the roulette table and have roulette players use them? Just exchange their chips for the sticker ones.
Possibly get some colored chip dividers and have the players place that on top of their bets. IE Player A puts two $5 chips on 00 then adds a blue Marker chip on top. Player B adds one $5 chip on 00 on top of the blue marker with his yellow marker chip.
Simple answer: yes. We can provide players with a colored "token" to place on top of every one of their bets. In that manner, it serves the same function as a colored chip. However, it is one extra step that must be dome that incidentally, does not happen in a real casino. It screams the question, "why not simply use colored chips and be done with it?" For some reason, the current chairperson does not like colored chips on roulette. Perhaps it's because he is a stupid f***.
Quote: RivaFor some reason, the current chairperson does not like colored chips on roulette. Perhaps it's because he is a stupid f***.
Has he ever player Roulette in a casino?
Obviously they should get real roulette chips. I just thought they didn't want to spare the extra money to do so.Do it on the cheap, Just add colored stickers .Quote: RivaSimple answer: yes. We can provide players with a colored "token" to place on top of every one of their bets. In that manner, it serves the same function as a colored chip. However, it is one extra step that must be dome that incidentally, does not happen in a real casino. It screams the question, "why not simply use colored chips and be done with it?" For some reason, the current chairperson does not like colored chips on roulette. Perhaps it's because he is a stupid f***.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Who?
Dexter Morgan
Showtime serial killer series. I guess he/she means kill the guy since he won't listen to logic and reason. Dexter kills bad guys and sometimes makes mistakes but most of the time the guy/gal deserved to be killed so the story line went. Judge, Jury, and Executioner he was.
Quote: Riva
At this event, it's real money gambling albeit of the $1-$5 per bet variety. Nothing crazy.
How is such a thing legal and allowed? I've never heard of a charity event being for real money other than "whoever wins the most" etc..
I feel your pain. This year I am volunteering to spearhead the usage of chips at all table games at my church's annual summer picnic. They had used cash in past years, but I am going to break that habit come hell or high water. I'm not taking 'no' for an answer on it, but the responsibility of making it happen falls on me.
I might suggest that if you are going to volunteer to do this again for the same organization, simply TELL them that they need colored Roulette chips. Price it out for them. Order them. Make it happen. If they want to hem and haw about it, let them know you want nothing to do with the Roulette tables, you can stick to Blackjack.
onenickelmiracle:
Shaving payouts and taking ties in Blackjack has simply become the norm at the Catholic picnics. Sure, a church could feasibly decide to say 'ties push,' but an increase in business because of it would likely decrease revenue, since the HA is cut down so low.
I've changed the rules and limits at my church. We are now min $2, max $20; House takes ties, except Blackjack vs Blackjack; Double any two cards; Split up to 4 hands; Split hands fully playable, double ok, hitting aces ok; No insurance, no surrender. I figure if we take ties, give back as much as possible.
In general...
People here complain about the HA at these events, especially for Blackjack. Taking ties makes the HA jump to around 8%-9%. That might be the best game to play at the entire picnic!
Beat the Dealer? HA of 11%.
Showdown Poker? HA of 20%, sometimes more.
Texas Hold'em? Rake of 15%, easily.
Any random 10¢ or 25¢ wheel game? 100 or 120 numbers for a $3 prize, if that.
These festivals are community events. Food, rides, socializing, and games to pass the time. I live in a city that is a 30-60 minute drive from a few casinos, so it's not like we're the only game in town. The folks who play also know that the profits go directly to the church and/or school. They are supporting the school their kids go to. They are supporting the church their family and friends attend. So while I completely understand the complaints a knowledgeable gambler has about the games played here, I also understand the reasons people willingly play them.
Quote: DweenRiva:
I feel your pain. This year I am volunteering to spearhead the usage of chips at all table games at my church's annual summer picnic. They had used cash in past years, but I am going to break that habit come hell or high water. I'm not taking 'no' for an answer on it, but the responsibility of making it happen falls on me.
I might suggest that if you are going to volunteer to do this again for the same organization, simply TELL them that they need colored Roulette chips. Price it out for them. Order them. Make it happen. If they want to hem and haw about it, let them know you want nothing to do with the Roulette tables, you can stick to Blackjack.
onenickelmiracle:
Shaving payouts and taking ties in Blackjack has simply become the norm at the Catholic picnics. Sure, a church could feasibly decide to say 'ties push,' but an increase in business because of it would likely decrease revenue, since the HA is cut down so low.
I've changed the rules and limits at my church. We are now min $2, max $20; House takes ties, except Blackjack vs Blackjack; Double any two cards; Split up to 4 hands; Split hands fully playable, double ok, hitting aces ok; No insurance, no surrender. I figure if we take ties, give back as much as possible.
In general...
People here complain about the HA at these events, especially for Blackjack. Taking ties makes the HA jump to around 8%-9%. That might be the best game to play at the entire picnic!
Beat the Dealer? HA of 11%.
Showdown Poker? HA of 20%, sometimes more.
Texas Hold'em? Rake of 15%, easily.
Any random 10¢ or 25¢ wheel game? 100 or 120 numbers for a $3 prize, if that.
These festivals are community events. Food, rides, socializing, and games to pass the time. I live in a city that is a 30-60 minute drive from a few casinos, so it's not like we're the only game in town. The folks who play also know that the profits go directly to the church and/or school. They are supporting the school their kids go to. They are supporting the church their family and friends attend. So while I completely understand the complaints a knowledgeable gambler has about the games played here, I also understand the reasons people willingly play them.
In my area at church festivals they allow anyone to play BJ. Most of the people playing them are kids. They also play a dice game but I never paid attention to what it was all about.
Quote: onenickelmiracleLast time I checked out a local Catholic church festival BJ min. bet $2, max $3, all ties lose, all Crappy rules. It never used to be so bad. Nobody was playing when I was there but 2 people compared to hundreds years ago here in Ohio.
Those are pretty standard. My church has BJ pays 2:1 and S17, but other than that, ties lose, don't even know if you can split, and insurance pays 1:1 (can't imagine what the TC would have to be to make that profitable.) Bets are from $1-$5.
Even if its for charity and the younger ones can't get into a real casino, you want it to be realistic. Dice dealers insist the money goes down on the table; they don't take it from someone's hand. Pretty dice dealer with a cute lock of hair that falls in front of her eyes goes SLAP adjusts hair SLAP even though there is no camera. Realism impresses the players and adds to the sense of adventurous "transported to Vegas for a night".
NOTHING puts females off more than a fight even a rather mild quiet one, so don't risk it. Colored chips. Period.
Play the game play it right and keep the game moving because THAT is what is bringing in the money, NOT playing umpire all the time.
Quote: FleaStiff[DeadHorse]Of course you need colored roulette chips rather than fights, delays, additional and artificial steps.[/DeadHorse]
Even if its for charity and the younger ones can't get into a real casino, you want it to be realistic. Dice dealers insist the money goes down on the table; they don't take it from someone's hand. Pretty dice dealer with a cute lock of hair that falls in front of her eyes goes SLAP adjusts hair SLAP even though there is no camera. Realism impresses the players and adds to the sense of adventurous "transported to Vegas for a night".
NOTHING puts females off more than a fight even a rather mild quiet one, so don't risk it. Colored chips. Period.
Play the game play it right and keep the game moving because THAT is what is bringing in the money, NOT playing umpire all the time.
Could not agree more. Adding insult to injury is the fact that we already own unique colored chips for roulette. I purchased them from a rental company that went bust. They are sitting in a storage room unused.
I believe that the chairperson's stubbornness on this issue is he believes that the roulette chips add to the total dollars in chips that the State permits to be sold in a day (the wager limit is set at $15,000 per day). He fails to understand that colored chips are merely a substitute for the chips that player would otherwise use at say, blackjack or craps. He insist that it deducts from the daily wager limit. I insist that he is a dunce.
The reason I am so adamant on this issue that, even using standard chips, roulette makes a ton of money at the events, while requiring very few dealers to handle 20 or so players. I am certain that using colored chips would increase the handle by 40%-60% and similarly, profits.
BTW--the $15,000 wager limit is a major issue at my and other similar events. It's not uncommon to turn people away at the door early in an evening because the house hat sold out its chips--and, it's illegal to resell chips out of winnings. Arrrgggh!
Quote: RivaJust be sure to turn away funny looking guys in hats that show up early.Quote: FleaStiff[DeadHorse]
The reason I am so adamant on this issue that, even using standard chips, roulette makes a ton of money at the events, while requiring very few dealers to handle 20 or so players. I am certain that using colored chips would increase the handle by 40%-60% and similarly, profits.
BTW--the $15,000 wager limit is a major issue at my and other similar events. It's not uncommon to turn people away at the door early in an evening because the house hat sold out its chips--and, it's illegal to resell chips out of winnings. Arrrgggh!♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Quote: AxelWolfQuote: RivaJust be sure to turn away funny looking guys in hats that show up early.Quote: FleaStiff[DeadHorse]
You know, it's funny you should say that. We had our big festival just last weekend and I was sharing that story with a person. I come to find out the company that rented me the jilted wheel was padlocked by the cops. I do not know the exact reason but I have to suspect it was for something similar that the caper they tried to pull on us.
Quote: Riva.I believe that the chairperson's stubbornness on this issue is he believes that the roulette chips add to the total dollars in chips that the State permits to be sold in a day (the wager limit is set at $15,000 per day). He fails to understand that colored chips are merely a substitute for the chips that player would otherwise use at say, blackjack or craps. He insist that it deducts from the daily wager limit. I insist that he is a dunce.
Aha! We have finally found the true reason for his reluctance.
News flash: That's a very legitimate reason. If your state's laws are written badly, he might even be right.
Solution: Get a letter from the state saying he's wrong.
Does he realize that when a player leaves the table, they will exchange their remaining chips for cheques?
Quote: DJTeddyBearAha! We have finally found the true reason for his reluctance.
News flash: That's a very legitimate reason. If your state's laws are written badly, he might even be right.
Solution: Get a letter from the state saying he's wrong.
We face the challenge of trying to keep as many chips in player's hand as possible and as few as possible in a dealer's tray. That's because the seed money in a dealer's tray counts against the daily wager limit. So, if we seed $100 for each of our 40 tables, that's $4,000 out of circulation. On average, we make about 30% on every dollar wagered so, we are not making the same 30% on the seed money or stated otherwise, we are deprived of $1,200 in profits. We counter this by putting the absolute smallest amount of money in a dealer's tray at start up. Again, it is illegal to resell chips because in essence, the house would be selling more than the $15,000 permitted, even though it is the same $15,000.
To be fair, I can understand my colleague's mindset. He wants to make sure that one such as roulette game does not gobble up all the chips in the room. In other words, have chips for the other games such as blackjack and the big wheels, etc. That's well and good as we have 20 BJ table. My issue with that is of the 20 tables, 12-14 of them will be profitable at the end of the night netting the house about $1000 in total. Plus, each table requires its own dealer. Conversely, each roulette table nets about $2k (or greater) per night and only requires 2 dealers per table. So, in my mind, I don't care if roulette is sucking up more of the room's chips, it's making more money. And, if we go to colored chips, we'll make even more money.
Quote: RivaQuote: FleaStiff[DeadHorse]Of course you need colored roulette chips rather than fights, delays, additional and artificial steps.[/DeadHorse]
Even if its for charity and the younger ones can't get into a real casino, you want it to be realistic. Dice dealers insist the money goes down on the table; they don't take it from someone's hand. Pretty dice dealer with a cute lock of hair that falls in front of her eyes goes SLAP adjusts hair SLAP even though there is no camera. Realism impresses the players and adds to the sense of adventurous "transported to Vegas for a night".
NOTHING puts females off more than a fight even a rather mild quiet one, so don't risk it. Colored chips. Period.
Play the game play it right and keep the game moving because THAT is what is bringing in the money, NOT playing umpire all the time.
Could not agree more. Adding insult to injury is the fact that we already own unique colored chips for roulette. I purchased them from a rental company that went bust. They are sitting in a storage room unused.
I believe that the chairperson's stubbornness on this issue is he believes that the roulette chips add to the total dollars in chips that the State permits to be sold in a day (the wager limit is set at $15,000 per day). He fails to understand that colored chips are merely a substitute for the chips that player would otherwise use at say, blackjack or craps. He insist that it deducts from the daily wager limit. I insist that he is a dunce.
The reason I am so adamant on this issue that, even using standard chips, roulette makes a ton of money at the events, while requiring very few dealers to handle 20 or so players. I am certain that using colored chips would increase the handle by 40%-60% and similarly, profits.
BTW--the $15,000 wager limit is a major issue at my and other similar events. It's not uncommon to turn people away at the door early in an evening because the house hat sold out its chips--and, it's illegal to resell chips out of winnings. Arrrgggh!
that would be annoying. So if I go there and buy $100 and play BJ. If I go bust then I can not buy more even though I was already there playing?
I'm sure the issue has arisen already somewhere and a decision already exists in their administrative determinations. A simple photocopy would probably suffice.Quote: DJTeddyBearAha! We have finally found the true reason for his reluctance.
News flash: That's a very legitimate reason. If your state's laws are written badly, he might even be right.
Solution: Get a letter from the state saying he's wrong.
Quote: GWAEQuote: RivaQuote: FleaStiff[DeadHorse]
that would be annoying. So if I go there and buy $100 and play BJ. If I go bust then I can not buy more even though I was already there playing?
Annoying? IT'S MADDENING!
We just had our big annual event last weekend. On Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights, we sold out of chips by 8:30 PM. We charge $5 for people to come in to the Vegas tent. We probably turned away 400 people who wanted to come in. That's $2,000 in gate revenue we did not make because people won't come in if they cant buy chips to gamble with. That's also 400 people that typically buy about $40 in chips that we make 30% off of. It's also 400 people that won't buy beer, pop and food which, like any sports venue, makes as much money as the ticket itself.
And that is just the people we turn away. Imagine the anger when a player who is already in the tent and needs to buy additional chips. And, we tell them we're sold out. They go bonkers. More importantly, they leave. No more beer and pizza sales.
In my book, the wager limit is public enemy #1. I am working with the power to be in state capital to get the wager limit increase and/or eliminated completely.
Quote: RivaQuote: AxelWolfQuote: RivaJust be sure to turn away funny looking guys in hats that show up early.Quote: FleaStiff[DeadHorse]
You know, it's funny you should say that. We had our big festival just last weekend and I was sharing that story with a person. I come to find out the company that rented me the jilted wheel was padlocked by the cops. I do not know the exact reason but I have to suspect it was for something similar that the caper they tried to pull on us.
I would suspect he was renting gambling devices to illegal operations. He probably helped run them.♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Quote: AxelWolfQuote: RivaQuote: AxelWolfQuote: RivaJust be sure to turn away funny looking guys in hats that show up early.Quote: FleaStiff[DeadHorse]
You know, it's funny you should say that. We had our big festival just last weekend and I was sharing that story with a person. I come to find out the company that rented me the jilted wheel was padlocked by the cops. I do not know the exact reason but I have to suspect it was for something similar that the caper they tried to pull on us.
I would suspect he was renting gambling devices to illegal operations. He probably helped run them.
Just the opposite..he was renting illegal gambling devices to LEGAL operations (charities, etc.). The charity would rent his rigged roulette wheel (obviously not knowing that it was rigged). The wheel owner would send in his soldier very early in the event to do his stuff and then split with the loot. Since most events are 1-nighters, the rigged wheel would stay in action however, neither the house or the players ever know the wheel is rigged. It's also quite possible that the wheel had some electrical component that was simply turned off when he ended his nefarious run.
In our case, we were lucky because we have a win limit of $500. The soldier won about $5,000. $4,500 stayed in the tent.
You should be able to rake off the losing bets just as fast, it is only one extra step to sort the colored one into a pile. No need to hand them back to the player until they need more of them, and they'll only be using one per bet.
Quote: Dalex64No need to hand them back to the player until they need more of them, and they'll only be using one per bet.
Unless you're dealing with some of those players who put down 20 straight number bets on each spin...
What is this wagering limit you're talking about? I've not come across it in any charitable gaming rules or laws, nor have I been told about it. I am in Kentucky, not sure what state you are in. I'd like to read your state's law and compare it to mine. (PM info to me if you'd rather not discuss in public forum.)
I am also trying to figure out how the wagering limit works. Any chips sold, and any chips put into dealer trays count towards the limit?
Quote: VenthusUnless you're dealing with some of those players who put down 20 straight number bets on each spin...
Precisely! The whole purpose of the exercise is to increase wagering and speed up the table. Putting a colored marker (bingo spot or tiddlywink) is one extra step that takes time away from the game.
As I see it, "time" is our most precious commodity. Anything that takes away from the 8 hours that you have to make money is hurting the house. A casino always has time on its side. We don't. For example, we don't allow BJ dealers to shuffle. Rather, we have a zillion decks and shuffle for them off to the side. When their shoe is spent, off goes the old shoe and in comes the new. ZERO down time.
If I have to do a lot of gymnastics with tiddlywinks, its costing me time.
Quote: DweenRiva:
What is this wagering limit you're talking about? I've not come across it in any charitable gaming rules or laws, nor have I been told about it. I am in Kentucky, not sure what state you are in. I'd like to read your state's law and compare it to mine. (PM info to me if you'd rather not discuss in public forum.)
I am also trying to figure out how the wagering limit works. Any chips sold, and any chips put into dealer trays count towards the limit?
Michigan has a $15,000 per day wager limit, no matter if the game is poker or traditional games such as craps, roulette, BJ, etc.
It's been on the books for decades.
When TRAXLER-MCCAULEY-LAW-BOWMAN BINGO ACT 382 became law in 1972, the wager limit was established a $2,000. That amount was believed to be sufficient at that particular time. Since then, the wager limit has been increased multiple times to (1) adjust for inflation, (2) respond to the popularity and demand for charitable gaming and (3) allow the charity to make more meaningful income from their fundraising events. The current wager limit is $15,000 and, it has not been adjusted since 1999.
Also, any seed money is counted against the wager limit. So, if you seed your dealers with $3,000 at the start of the night, you only have $12,000 to sell players.
There are several charities, such as mine, that host events where the availability of chips is easily eclipsed by the demand. Just this last weekend, we were sold out by 8:30 each night. That means we make no more money from admission revenue, gaming revenue and concessions.
Again, there is a bill in the legislature that will increase the wager limit to $50,000 iff the organization conducts 100% of its own event, meaning its own location, with its own people and, not using or renting any equipment from suppliers. We meet that criteria.
