One for the Money -- New Page
Quote: PaigowdanAP-ing or hole-carding 3CP was once so severe it was referred to as One-card Poker. Casinos then kept the dealer's hand in the shuffler until needed, or put a cut-card under the dealer's hand on high-mount machines, if they decided to take the hand out before players had acted. Casinos now more often leave dealer cards in the shuffler until they are needed, for game protection reasons. Eliot Jacobson certainly recommends and had advised this as a casino defense on 3CP. I've also seen casinos hand-deal UTH and NOT bring out the flop until players had raised or checked on the first round - players raise or check on seeing their own hole-cards only, should there be flop or dealer hand hole-carding risks. In these cases it has fixed the problem, as you cannot hole-card the dealer's cards if are still in the shuffler, of if not dealt until needed. you see, it's not about weathering a storm, it's about avoiding the storm or any loses or threats for implementing a trivial change that can address this.
Casino operators take the actions that they feel they need to take as far as game control and protections go, and they make the call. If they come across sour grapes or complaints about it, either at a forum like this place, or in a casino, they believe they were vindicated or on the right track, especially if hold increases. If an AP player complains or gripes about a defensive measure, especially if the hold goes up, then as far as they're concerned they got results, especially if numbers back this up.
I don't believe it was Eliot who first had advised this move, in fact I believe it was first used at NYNY and was called something like the NYNY move or something, perhaps someoe can remember the name of the procedure? This was done way before Eliots article in July 2012.
Eliiot is right though, it certainly is one way of protecting the hole card but there are way too many draw backs on a game where perfect knowledge will only give you a very small edge and then you will get crushed by the variance anyway. If you knew two cards, now that is a different kettle of fish alltogether.
Quote: TomspurI don't believe it was Eliot who first had advised this move, in fact I believe it was first used at NYNY and was called something like the NYNY move or something, perhaps someoe can remember the name of the procedure? This was done way before Eliots article in July 2012.
Eliiot is right though, it certainly is one way of protecting the hole card but there are way too many draw backs on a game where perfect knowledge will only give you a very small edge and then you will get crushed by the variance anyway. If you knew two cards, now that is a different kettle of fish alltogether.
I know Eliot wasn't first, - I've seen casinos do this for years on 3CP/1CP. The fact that Eliot and others who consult in game defense say it works is an endorsement of its effectiveness. Little things help in awareness of game defense and details, as it does in AP on the other side.
And for One for the Money, it seems a defendable and solid game.
Quote: PaigowdanI know Eliot wasn't first, - I've seen casinos do this for years on 3CP/1CP. The fact that Eliot and others who consult in game defense say it works is an endorsement of its effectiveness. Little things help in awareness of game defense and details, as it does in AP on the other side.
And for One for the Money, it seems a defendable and solid game.
I understand.
My concern with regards to leaving the cards in the cradle is two fold.
1) It slows down the game which costs the casino revenue.
2) If there is a misdeal and someone on the game has a progressive hit......man, oh man, be somewhere else. I don't know what the probabilities of such an event may be and it is probably incalculable due to the unknown "mechanical failure" of the shuffler but still, I wouldn't want to have that happen in any spot where I am.
Quote: WizardI first noticed some casinos leaving the cards in the tray in 3CP quite a while ago. If forced to estimate, I'd say 2006.
I must admit i thought the date was closer to 2008 but I'm speaking about heresay now as I wasn't in Vegas back then. Still, it proves that it has been around for a while and that casino bosses don't always make the right decisions :)
Quote: TomspurI understand.
My concern with regards to leaving the cards in the cradle is two fold.
1) It slows down the game which costs the casino revenue.
2) If there is a misdeal and someone on the game has a progressive hit......man, oh man, be somewhere else. I don't know what the probabilities of such an event may be and it is probably incalculable due to the unknown "mechanical failure" of the shuffler but still, I wouldn't want to have that happen in any spot where I am.
How could the shuffler misdeal after the players cards are dealt but before the dealers reaches for his cards? I thought once the green light flashes that means the deck was good.
Quote: michael99000How could the shuffler misdeal after the players cards are dealt but before the dealers reaches for his cards? I thought once the green light flashes that means the deck was good.
When i last worked with those shufflers, the only time the green light can flash is when ALL the cards have been ejected from the machine. The green light would come on stating that the machine has emptied all the cards, they were all present when being emptied and the machine is now ready to receive the new deck of cards.
If the dealers cards remain in the cradle then the slug will remain inside the machine therefore the machine cannot be cleared for next cycle use.
Again, just my opinion, things may have changed but I doubt it!
Quote: TomspurWhen i last worked with those shufflers, the only time the green light can flash is when ALL the cards have been ejected from the machine. The green light would come on stating that the machine has emptied all the cards, they were all present when being emptied and the machine is now ready to receive the new deck of cards.
If the dealers cards remain in the cradle then the slug will remain inside the machine therefore the machine cannot be cleared for next cycle use.
Again, just my opinion, things may have changed but I doubt it!
That's been my experience as well.
Quote: TomspurWhen i last worked with those shufflers, the only time the green light can flash is when ALL the cards have been ejected from the machine. The green light would come on stating that the machine has emptied all the cards, they were all present when being emptied and the machine is now ready to receive the new deck of cards.
If the dealers cards remain in the cradle then the slug will remain inside the machine therefore the machine cannot be cleared for next cycle use.
Again, just my opinion, things may have changed but I doubt it!
That is correct. I guess in my experience most misdeals (via the red light) occurred before the first hand was even dealt. Usually due to cards jamming up during the shuffling process.
But if I were to be dealt my cards, pick up a mini royal, place my raise wager, and THEN have that red light come on... Lol I would not handle that well.
When you go to war, you burn three cards for the dealer and each player in the war. Not all casinos do this, but that is the traditional method.Quote: WizardWhat is a double war?Quote: DJTeddyBear... you wouldn't want to deal all the way or even almost all the way to the bottom, because then you run the risk of running out of cards if there is a war or double-war.
Double War is when the war results in a tie. Burn some more and you really run the risk of running out if you dealt near to the end.
I've seen it happen at 3CP where a player (only playing Pair Plus) was dealt SF AKQc and the dealer hand somehow went wrong. He was offered a free dinner, but nothing like the payout he would have got (and remember the dealer's hand doesn't matter for his bet!). Personally I don't even touch my cards until the green light comes on or the unused cards are dumped out - which sometimes annoys the dealer as all the others have usually acted so the dealer is almost turning their cards over.Quote: michael99000...dealt my cards, pick up a mini royal...
I just read the WoO page on War. It indicates that a second tie is a winner.
I could swear that I've seen it played somewhere that a second tie goes to war again, but without need to rebet. If THAT war wins, you get paid on both, slightly reducing the edge. If that was is yet another tie, just keep going until there's no tie.
Quote: charliepatrickI've seen it happen at 3CP where a player (only playing Pair Plus) was dealt SF AKQc and the dealer hand somehow went wrong. He was offered a free dinner, but nothing like the payout he would have got (and remember the dealer's hand doesn't matter for his bet!). Personally I don't even touch my cards until the green light comes on or the unused cards are dumped out - which sometimes annoys the dealer as all the others have usually acted so the dealer is almost turning their cards over.
Tell the dealer to feel free to turn them over! :)
