Amusing UTH story, hero 4-bet

Today was a roller-coaster day of epic proportions at the UTH table. Sitting down at the table down $500 from elsewhere, I found myself up $40, down $300, up $700, even, down $700, and finally up $900.

But all of that is neither here nor there. The amusing story involves one hand in particular. This hand took place during a brief winning streak for all players. Hands are dealt, and we are allowed to see each others' cards. They are

Player 1: QQ
Player 2: KJ
Player 3: AJ
Player 4: AQ
Player 5: QJ
Me: Drumroll please.....5-2 offsuit

In an act of hubris, I convinced myself that since the other 5 players were all sharing like cards (2 aces, all of the queens and 3 of the jacks), that boosted the value of my 5-2, and I backed it up with a $100 four-bet.

Flop: 5-5-6, and the table howls, as do I.
Turn/River: 2-6. Pick a boat.

5-2 off-suit nets me $100+25+75+200, for a $400 win, and the dealer pays his $5 toke for $45 and down.

But was I right? Were all those high cards really enough to boost my 5-2 into four-bet territory?

The answer: Heck no! After looking it up in a simulator once I got home, it turns out that 5-2 is typically a 2:1 dog against a blind hand. These dead cards raise 5-2's value, but it's still a 3:2 dog. Not four-bet material, and I'll know better than to do that again.

Be that as it may, it provided all of us with a story we'll be telling for quite some time, and served as a highlight in an otherwise turbulent session of gambling. Thank goodness I don't make a habit of four-betting 5-2 more often! The game is turbulent enough as it is!

Quote: Deucekies

Today was a roller-coaster day of epic proportions at the UTH table. Sitting down at the table down $500 from elsewhere, I found myself up $40, down $300, up $700, even, down $700, and finally up $900.

But all of that is neither here nor there. The amusing story involves one hand in particular. This hand took place during a brief winning streak for all players. Hands are dealt, and we are allowed to see each others' cards. They are

Player 1: QQ
Player 2: KJ
Player 3: AJ
Player 4: AQ
Player 5: QJ
Me: Drumroll please.....5-2 offsuit

In an act of hubris, I convinced myself that since the other 5 players were all sharing like cards (2 aces, all of the queens and 3 of the jacks), that boosted the value of my 5-2, and I backed it up with a $100 four-bet.

Flop: 5-5-6, and the table howls, as do I.
Turn/River: 2-6. Pick a boat.

5-2 off-suit nets me $100+25+75+200, for a $400 win, and the dealer pays his $5 toke for $45 and down.

But was I right? Were all those high cards really enough to boost my 5-2 into four-bet territory?

The answer: Heck no! After looking it up in a simulator once I got home, it turns out that 5-2 is typically a 2:1 dog against a blind hand. These dead cards raise 5-2's value, but it's still a 3:2 dog. Not four-bet material, and I'll know better than to do that again.

Be that as it may, it provided all of us with a story we'll be telling for quite some time, and served as a highlight in an otherwise turbulent session of gambling. Thank goodness I don't make a habit of four-betting 5-2 more often! The game is turbulent enough as it is!

Great story, interesting after-analysis. Thanks, Deucekies!

Quote: Deucekies

Today was a roller-coaster day of epic proportions at the UTH table. Sitting down at the table down $500 from elsewhere, I found myself up $40, down $300, up $700, even, down $700, and finally up $900.

But all of that is neither here nor there. The amusing story involves one hand in particular. This hand took place during a brief winning streak for all players. Hands are dealt, and we are allowed to see each others' cards. They are

Player 1: QQ
Player 2: KJ
Player 3: AJ
Player 4: AQ
Player 5: QJ
Me: Drumroll please.....5-2 offsuit

In an act of hubris, I convinced myself that since the other 5 players were all sharing like cards (2 aces, all of the queens and 3 of the jacks), that boosted the value of my 5-2, and I backed it up with a $100 four-bet.

Flop: 5-5-6, and the table howls, as do I.
Turn/River: 2-6. Pick a boat.

5-2 off-suit nets me $100+25+75+200, for a $400 win, and the dealer pays his $5 toke for $45 and down.

But was I right? Were all those high cards really enough to boost my 5-2 into four-bet territory?

The answer: Heck no! After looking it up in a simulator once I got home, it turns out that 5-2 is typically a 2:1 dog against a blind hand. These dead cards raise 5-2's value, but it's still a 3:2 dog. Not four-bet material, and I'll know better than to do that again.

Be that as it may, it provided all of us with a story we'll be telling for quite some time, and served as a highlight in an otherwise turbulent session of gambling. Thank goodness I don't make a habit of four-betting 5-2 more often! The game is turbulent enough as it is!

Dead card info is never worth that much in this game.

I would guess that all four queens being gone hurts your hand, rather than helps it (fewer ranks available means that it is more likely that the dealer's cards are live, too)

Nice hit, though.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I would guess that all four queens being gone hurts your hand, rather than helps it (fewer ranks available means that it is more likely that the dealer's cards are live, too).

That could well explain the low jump. Sure my odds are better to hit the board, but that doesn't mean I'm going to beat the dealer.

Dead card info is valuable in only a few select instances, as we discussed in another thread. Threshold hands like K5o, Q8o, J10o, 33, 44, etc may be impacted by dead outs. I'm going to use a simulator to come up with a list.

You're right though. Probably 99% of the time, it doesn't help you, and in fact helps the house if you chicken out on your solid 4-bet.

That said, just for fun, let's take the dealer out of it, and imagine the six players are playing Texas Hold Em.

Hand Equity Wins Ties
52 19.25% 91,725 1,958
QQ 30.40% 144,477 3,696
KJ 19.23% 91,637 1,958
AJ 5.19% 20,264 10,371
AQ 15.79% 70,375 12,109
QJ 10.15% 47,619 3,696

5-2 is actually in second place, only behind the QQ. Pretty remarkable.

Yeah weird things happen like that when everyone blocks each other. That scenario doesn't matter for UTH though. This matters.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

5,665,448,880 games 25.663 secs 220,763,312 games/sec

Board:
Dead: Qc Qh Kd Jc As Jh Ad Qs Qd Jc

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 61.208% 57.69% 03.51% 3268580451 199108822.50 { random }
Hand 1: 38.792% 35.28% 03.51% 1998650784 199108822.50 { 52o }

52o has only 38.792% equity vs. a random dealer hand with those other cards taken. Obviously not a good 4X raise.

If you don't do something crazy once in a while, you might go insane. That's what my therapist tells me.

Quote: tringlomane

52o has only 38.792% equity vs. a random dealer hand with those other cards taken. Obviously not a good 4X raise.

Agreed.

Quote: Deucekies

The answer: Heck no! After looking it up in a simulator once I got home, it turns out that 5-2 is typically a 2:1 dog against a blind hand. These dead cards raise 5-2's value, but it's still a 3:2 dog. Not four-bet material.

Whoops, I missed that you did the math earlier. I'm very good at being redundant...lol

Good hit though. :)

Maybe I missed it - but what was the dealer's hand in the example hand? Did the rest of the table win their 4-bets with kickers or did they back down seeing all the copying?

Quote: deanandmaria

Maybe I missed it - but what was the dealer's hand in the example hand? Did the rest of the table win their 4-bets with kickers or did they back down seeing all the copying?

Without remembering exactly what the dealer's hand was, I do remember everyone else won. QQ certainly 4-bet, and everyone still came along at least by the river. Even with their matching cards, they knew that I held one of the 5s