Roulette: Cheater, Lucky or Us?
I used to think for sure Riva was a male and ran a well oiled charitable gambling establishment. After this story, I now think Riva must be a woman.Quote: AcesAndEightsPoint of order: Riva, are you male or female? Weird question to ask, I know, but both pronouns are being thrown around in this thread. I mean no disrespect.
Quote: AxelWolfI used to think for sure Riva was a male and ran a well oiled charitable gambling establishment. After this story, I now think Riva must be a woman.
Wow, not sure that was necessary.......
????? why? people keep referring to Riva as a she after reading this thread an pointed out Riva was a female name, I didn't even think of that.Quote: TomspurWow, not sure that was necessary.......
Quote: AxelWolfPS. You were watching him as he keeps wining? You knew he had a $500 cap, so if he wins you don't have to pay him, if he loses you keep the winnings. NOW THAT'S SLEAZY
I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to call it "sleazy", especially if there were signs posted everywhere. If there were no signs, then I'd agree with you though.
Anyone in their right mind would ring a bell if someone wins the number bet on roulette more than 3 times in a row. "They are all volunteers" is not an excuse.
And even if the dealer is a robot, how would the player know it in advance? Even if the guy from the rental company managed to slip in a biased wheel or whatever, why would he be so confident he could win 5000 in 15 minutes and expect the dealer not to say anything?
I don't think Riva is telling the story correctly. Riva seems very confused about everything that happened. Without a consistent idea of what actually happened, it's impossible to make any reasonable guesses about "who did it."
Quote: AxelWolf????? why? people keep referring to Riva as a she after reading this thread an pointed out Riva was a female name, I didn't even think of that.
So let me ask you this.....you didn't mean to insinuate that, because Riva "could be" a woman, that she was incapable of running the charitable event as well as a man could?
I may not have understood you properly and I have to apologize, English is not my first language.
Quote: AxelWolf
You were watching him as he keeps wining? You knew he had a $500 cap, so if he wins you don't have to pay him, if he loses you keep the winnings. NOW THAT'S SLEAZY
Its okay to swindle players though because its for a good cause.
So let me get this right. You think its ok to watch someone play in hopes they will lose all their money, meanwhile knowing they cant possibly cash out if they win enough? that's in no way in the spirit of gambling especially at a charity event. I think the rules are posted as a, Just in case situation, but if any one person working the event knows someone is clearly over the cash out threshold, why would he not be informed of the rule?Quote: Beethoven9thI'm not so sure I'd go so far as to call it "sleazy", especially if there were signs posted everywhere. If there were no signs, then I'd agree with you though.
I'm not even sure how events like this work, but can one lose more then 500 in one night?
Quote: Riva
Did he leave with the chips that he didn't cash? Answer: NO!
The cashier counted all the chips, put them in to trays and told him "$500." We were, by that time, on def-con 5 because we knew he was probably going to go nuclear, which he did. So much so that the cops had to come over to sniff. After several minutes of "negotiations", with the police being present, he took his $500 while shouting f-bombs the entire way out of the room. Bottom line..the bank was in balance at the end of the night--and we made a profit!
Tempest in a teapot here, there may have been an attempted scam by this Spike Jones the Magician character but apparently no harm was done because of the $500 cap.
Quote: AxelWolfSo let me get this right. You think its ok to watch someone play in hopes they will lose all their money, meanwhile knowing they cant possibly cash out if they win enough?
In this case, I'd say no. There were obviously some shenanigans going on, and as long as there were clear signs everywhere, I probably would have let the scammer play on myself.
Quote: TomspurEnglish is not my first language.
Do you speak Afrikaans?
Buy in $100, lose it.Quote: AxelWolfI'm not even sure how events like this work, but can one lose more then 500 in one night?
Drink some beer to ease the pain.
Buy in $100, lose it.
More beer.
Buy in $100, lose it.
Beer.
Repeat as necessary. The mentality "It's for a good cause" can definitely cause this kind of behavior.
So someone can lose 2k then win back 1500 but only cash in 500 of it?Quote: DweenBuy in $100, lose it.
Drink some beer to ease the pain.
Buy in $100, lose it.
More beer.
Buy in $100, lose it.
Beer.
Repeat as necessary. The mentality "It's for a good cause" can definitely cause this kind of behavior.
Quote: Beethoven9thDo you speak Afrikaans?
I am Afrikaans :)
Riva already tried to break it down and never did Riva mention that it was possible to win 500 a spin.Quote: BeardgoatWhen Riva speaks of this neighborhood bet, does he mean that the scammer could play $5 on the number, 4 borders, and 4 corners.... so for example if the number wheel is designed to hit #8 then the scammer puts $5 on 8, $5 on 5 6 8 9 corner, $5 on 8 9 11 12 corner, etc... if that is allowed then the scammer is winning more then just 25-1 on a number hit. He easily reach over $5k in 15-20 minutes if he is winning $500 a spin
Where I find myself conflicted is the role of the dealer. With the information we have, and we conclude he's in on it, he must be overpaying when the player's number hits, and probably overpaying even when a different number comes up. But, if he's in on it, and he had dealt this event many times in the past, then he would surely know the $500 limit?
Quote: AxelWolfPS. You were watching him as he keeps wining? You knew he had a $500 cap, so if he wins you don't have to pay him, if he loses you keep the winnings. NOW THAT'S SLEAZY
Cheese and rice people! It's a charity event. All of the games have shaved payouts to the point where you should have NO expectation of winning when you walk in that door. A straight-up number only pays 25-1, ferchrissakes! If you don't support whatever charity this is, you shouldn't play, because you are effectively making a donation.
Let's stop denigrating Riva for the rules and payout limitations of the event, and focus on the problem at hand.
I'm isolating the events down to bare bones, with no betting additional numbers for camoflage or anything. Pay the bets (after the first calculation, it's the same amount each time) which ride, so no time lost, ask "no more bets?", grab the ball and throw it, takes maybe 30 seconds at most to land in the number again. It goes fast and mechanical with the guy playing head to head, surely not more than 1 minute per cycle.
Other than chip fills, the whole thing takes 45 seconds a hand. And nobody's quite able, as amateurs, to take the initiative to stop the action, slow things waaaay down after the 2nd or 3rd win, call a supervisor, or KNOW that something has to be wrong enough to give them the confidence to confront a tall, weird-looking guy playing alone. The bulk of this happened while everything else was starting up, it only would have been the last few spins where anyone would have come to look (maybe when the 2nd bucket was needed?), and maybe a couple of spins more once attention was paid to get that there was a problem.
To me, the really weird thing is the scammers not knowing about the 500 max pay. But, if it was a scam rental place she hadn't worked with before, and they rent their stuff out to whoever in the area, maybe it's a portable deal they work wherever the gaffed wheel/balls are placed. They send the guy in blind assuming there's no payout cap, (personally I've never heard of a payout cap) and he's just focused on a quick hit and get out before they realize they've been hit, not looking at wall signs. YOU (as the magician) know you're running a scam, so you're hyped and focused, and you know you have to move fast; you're not looking around, you think you know what's going on here, but it turns out you don't. So maybe the guy figures, by the time he's trying to get paid, he just has to act like an honest outraged patron and let the police get involved, because what are they going to prove against him at that point? They're probably still pulling this scam somewhere when they rent the roulette, since she hasn't been able to prove enough to take action against them.
Putting that all together, I can see this happening exactly as Riva first described it, and in the time frame she described, with nobody really paying attention to the situation during a mass table opening time. Perhaps the one thing the magician did, as he picked up his buckets and left the table, was to switch out the magnetized ball for an inert one.
And Axel, I'm calling you out on your "woman" comment. That was rude. :P
Quote: AxelWolfRiva already tried to break it down and never did Riva mention that it was possible to win 500 a spin.
I dont recall him/her saying it wasn't possible either. He/she even stated there were neighborhood bets the scammer was winning. So the scammer was definitely winning more than $125 a spin
Quote: RivaAxiom.. I get the clock/math..you win!
The guy was strange. Perhaps 6'4" 200 lbs. Had pants on that should be on somebody that weighed in at 170. I mean way too tight..aka "skinny pants". Plus is was stupid looking, especially with that hat. In some ways, he looked like "big bird". (sorry, not kind)
However, as far as him being a diversion..he absolutely, positively was the only person at the table for the entire time he was in the room. Even though I was setting up the craps table at the time, I am constantly looking around the room. When the first person entering the room for the night comes in, especially somebody that looks likes an ostrich, dressed in gigantically overly-tight pants and undersized vest and, wearing a checkered Frank Sinatra hat, I take notice. At the time. I was not so much worried that he was a cheater as I was that he could be Charles Manson! Seriously, he was THAT strange/goofy looking. That said, he was, 100% of the time, the ONLY person at that roulette table for the time he played there. I was, at best, 20' away and once alerted to the chip loss scenario, my eyes were on this jackass like a hawk--all this, knowing we still had the $500 cap firewall! Please help me plug this damn so it can't happen again at our event again. That's my only mission here! I'm not here to argue.
And I don't think the people responding want to argue either. But there is NO way it could have happened the way you are recollecting. The amount won, the time duration, and the dealer not being involved make it impossible (unless perhaps the cashier was involved), but that would mean the time duration is still way off.
EDIT: Beachbumbabs has described a way the time duration would be feasible. But this means the dealer practically has to be the dumbest volunteer on earth.
Three major things are bothering me in this thread.
1.) I may be mistaken, and I am too lazy to look, but I thought this thread started off with the description of an event under a tent, and the roulette wheel was set up on grass. But this post, and a following post, clearly talk about a room. To me, a room implies a structure. Are we talking about the same event?
2.) I have never done a charity event, but this description of the $500 max win, but then a $500 max cash out does not make any sense at all. If I bought in for $500, I want to be able to cash out for $1000. An event as big as described MUST have run into this before. This discrepancy should have been corrected the first time it was mentioned here, and it wasn't. Why not, and what is the process?
It was mentioned that no buy-ins are done at the table, so my assumption is the buy-in is done at a cashier. And since this is a charity event, you probably get a receipt for your buy-in amount. If this is correct, then you would have a mechanism to receive back your buy-in amount, AND give up your charitable receipt, since you DID NOT contribute to the charity. Whatever the mechanism is, why hasn't it been described to end the confusion on the cash out process?
Could it be the scam was he bought in for $50, but in all the uproar, he produced a receipt for a much higher buy-in, and everyone was so focused on the $5,000 in chips, nobody bothered to confirm the buy-in receipt? Classic misdirect.
3.) I believe the issue occurred 3 years ago, so memory fade is to be expected. But the board has done a very good job at showing the timeline and amounts talked about are impossible. So, either the time was off, or the amount. After 3 years, I can see being foggy about the time fame, but not missing it by an hour. If the player had picked the right number 14 times in a row, that is what everyone would be talking about. Even if it was only the dealer, he certainly would talk about that. The dullest volunteer on earth would notice 14 straight wins, unless this was their first time ever dealing Roulette. Even the most bored casino dealer, who deals every day, would remember if a player picked 14 straight winners. So we KNOW the time frame was off, and this has been admitted, although I believe the admission is it may have been 30 minutes, not 15 minutes. But I think the math is indicating it has to be closer to ONE hour, so there is still a discrepancy on the time frame.
Now, if the $5,000 was really closer to $3,000, then the time duration becomes less of a discrepancy.
4.) Riva seems to hold the dealer beyond reproach. Many people have been burned by trusted friends. But it seems the take is limited to $500, so I can't imagine anyone that trusted betraying you for $500. But that leaves problems.
If we rule out the dealer, the time duration and the money won, are not possible.
The money won, does not seem possible with the table fill information that was received.
I believe $1,000 initial bank was stated. Would it make sense to bring $4,000 more on the first fill? That would still mean a busted bank with the player having $5,000.
Multiple fills have not been mentioned, but if they did occur, there is no way the 15 minutes, or even 30 minute duration is possible. The fills would take most of that time.
Sorry, but some of the facts must still be skewed. Perhaps it would work if you could identify which facts you are 100% certain on, and then which ones you are 'confident' are correct, and finally, which facts are a bit hazy. Perhaps a timeline would be helpful. For example:
6:30 pre opening chores
7:00 Doors open
7:05 setting up craps table
7:15 person X stops by to tell me player at Roulette is up X amount
7:20 Roulette table requests more chips
This may really help everyone be able to focus on what may have happened.
Quote: BeardgoatI dont understand why its so hard to believe the timeframe. If the scammer is winning $365 a spin he is over $5k in 14 spins. You think 14 spins takes an hour?
That is 14 WINNERS in a row! And that is the guy placing his bets such that they are ALL winners. He's not playing any other numbers as cover? How obvious would this be?
It was a rigged wheel. We've established the scammer wasnt very smart. He didnt know about the 500 cash out rule. And riva alluded to the fact that the volunteer croupier was just a volunteer. He didnt care. Seems like Riva was also suggesting the volunteers werent the brightest of the bunch. If the croupier is not in on the scam and he is spinning the ball himslef he was probably thinking holy shit what a streak this guy is on
Quote: RaleighCrapsThat is 14 WINNERS in a row! And that is the guy placing his bets such that they are ALL winners. He's not playing any other numbers as cover? How obvious would this be?
You'd be surprised.
Quote: beachbumbabsSo, if this guy is the only bettor, and he knows the number to be paid, and is only playing the number and splits for 5, (from about 10 pages ago), that was worth 125+60+60+60+60=365. Nobody else betting or slowing things down, no change to be made, no chip reset because they stay on the layout (and it's only 5 chips), the guy wins on the number 14 times and he's got 5K+ in chips. Why is it so hard to believe in that kind of "express roulette" scenario this could happen in 20 minutes or less?
A normal roulette spin on a well-regulated wheel takes far longer than that. If the wheel was gaffed with magnets so the ball zipped right into the target number, it may have taken a shorter amount of time, but the point is that in that scenario the dealer should have noticed the game wasn't behaving properly. Nobody wins three full-complete bets in a row, let alone 14 of them. Yet the dealer didn't complain? If the dealer was experienced enough to make the payout quickly, he would also have been experienced enough to notice the wheel and ball weren't behaving normally. On the other hand, if the dealer was truly as novice as Riva indicates, then the dealer surely would have taken a long time to make the payouts. How fast can you make a 365-chip payout? That's 18 stacks of chips each time! Riva said the bank was 1k per side, so the dealer wouldn't even have had enough money to pay a 3rd win at 365 each, at least with no other losses. Did they really call for a fill after just two spins? And again after the next three?
On the other hand, if you allow that the magician had several different numbers targeted, the net win per spin drops but the time to make the pays increases because the dealer has to sweep the losers first. Either way, it doesn't add up.
Quote: MathExtremistA normal roulette spin on a well-regulated wheel takes far longer than that. If the wheel was gaffed with magnets so the ball zipped right into the target number, it may have taken a shorter amount of time, but the point is that in that scenario the dealer should have noticed the game wasn't behaving properly. Nobody wins three full-complete bets in a row, let alone 14 of them. Yet the dealer didn't complain? If the dealer was experienced enough to make the payout quickly, he would also have been experienced enough to notice the wheel and ball weren't behaving normally. On the other hand, if the dealer was truly as novice as Riva indicates, then the dealer surely would have taken a long time to make the payouts. How fast can you make a 365-chip payout? That's 18 stacks of chips each time! Riva said the bank was 1k per side, so the dealer wouldn't even have had enough money to pay a 3rd win at 365 each, at least with no other losses. Did they really call for a fill after just two spins? And again after the next three?
On the other hand, if you allow that the magician had several different numbers targeted, the net win per spin drops but the time to make the pays increases because the dealer has to sweep the losers first. Either way, it doesn't add up.
Agree with most of what you're saying, except your framework is an experienced casino running full time. What's to stop a casual charity game from paying out of the 2nd side while they get a runner over to fill both, or moving much faster than a casino with proper procedures, with people not skilled enough to realize they had a scam running on them? I just think they got popped by pros, it was within possibility as she described it. Probably a really good thing they did have that payout cap in place. (Which she said was why they had one; it paid off)
First..as to my gender. Riva was the name of my childhood dog. Now, don't you feel silly? :)
To clarify a few things..this particular event was /is held in a tent. It's a 4-day affair that attracts several hundred thousand people over the weekend. It's the biggest event of its kind in the USA. The gambling tent is just one of the attractions. If I said "room" in describing the area, it was done just to shorten a sentence. We do however, have many other gambling events for fundraising during the year but this is the only one conducted out-of-doors.
As for the schedule, you pretty much nailed it.
6:30 set-up. Actually, we start setting up days in advance. Dealers and volunteers are supposed to be there at 6:30 but most show at the very last minute. What can you do..they're volunteers.
7:00 Doors open. Magician buys chips and starts playing at the roulette
7:10 or so, pal comes over to my craps to alert me of the train wreck
7:20 or so, magician goes to cash out. He goes ballistic when told winnings cannot exceed $500. Event manager jumps in, cops walk over.
7:30. magician storms out
As for the $500 cap, I believe it was/is part of the original state law. It was put in there, I'm told, to protect charities from getting murdered. I will check in to that. Players are issues a card when they walk in recording their buy in. When they cash out, the buy in is subtracted from the total amount of chips. If the balance of chips is greater than $500, the water turns off. Again, players know how to easily get around this. Plus the $500 cap keeps the game from going crazy. When your open for business only 6 or 7 hours, the house may not time to recover against a giant run. Allowing $100 wager on a straight up number is still $2,500.
Quote: BeardgoatI dont recall him/her saying it wasn't possible either. He/she even stated there were neighborhood bets the scammer was winning. So the scammer was definitely winning more than $125 a spin
I won't kick it to death but again, if the magnet was under say 5 consecutive/touching numbers on the WHEEL (not the layout) it looks totally random to the house. For example. 15, 35,22,5,17 lines up on the WHEEL. They do not line up on the layout. We don't have a number display board which could possibly have helped. Please forgive me if I inferred that the magician was putting down a straight up number and winning every spin. Rather, he was putting down 5 straight up numbers with every possible a split on each number. However, the numbers he was betting on every spin was 15, 35, 22, 5, 17. That's because those are the magnetized numbers. Perhaps he bet some shill numbers as well just to put up some smoke. Using this method, it's quite possible to NET about $250 - $300 per-spin. Nuff said.
Quote: djatcI would backroom him and confiscate his chips for charity.
Unfortunately, there's no backroom in a tent!
http://i61.tinypic.com/11lk0i1.jpg
Quote: RivaI won't kick it to death but again, if the magnet was under say 5 consecutive/touching numbers on the WHEEL (not the layout) it looks totally random to the house. For example. 15, 35,22,5,17 lines up on the WHEEL. They do not line up on the layout. We don't have a number display board which could possibly have helped. Please forgive me if I inferred that the magician was putting down a straight up number and winning every spin. Rather, he was putting down 5 straight up numbers with every possible a split on each number. However, the numbers he was betting on every spin was 15, 35, 22, 5, 17. That's because those are the magnetized numbers. Perhaps he bet some shill numbers as well just to put up some smoke. Using this method, it's quite possible to NET about $250 - $300 per-spin. Nuff said.
So he is betting 5 numbers and 20 pairs for $5 each ($125 in total bets), losing $100 of that, and winning $365 on his other $25 worth of bets. Net profit = $265/spin. So now he has to buy in, and win 19 spins in a row. In 15 minutes.
I seriously doubt that your non-professional dealer can do a wheel spin, scoop the losing bets, then cut, stack, and ship the winnings in less than 2 minutes. Certainly no less than 90 seconds. Even if he is paying him in $5 chips, that is over 3 and a half stacks of chips. Non-pros will have trouble counting out this amount, and even pushing them without toppling them over.
If your dealer pushed the guy $5k in 15 minutes, then he was overpaying the guy. Either cheating or incompetent. I remain open to the possibility that the guy acquired some of the chips in some other manner, though.
Maybe, in addition to the guy cheating, the dealer was accidentally (or not) paying him off in stacks of $10 chips instead of stacks of $5 chips? I still think that there's not enough time, but at least there is some room for argument there.
If he was paying him in stacks of $5 chips instead of stacks of $1s (ie, 18+ stacks of 5's), now it's starting to sound like there might be enough time to pull this off (it's just 3 big wins with some losing bets mixed in). This is possible if the dealer is not in on it, but sufficiently gullible/incompetent. In fact, this wouldn't even require a gaffed wheel. Just cover the layout with lots of bets -- they are paying 125-1 on the numbers and 60-1 on the pairs, after all. The guy may not even have been a cheat -- he may have just noticed the ridiculous payoffs and decided to hit as hard as he could for a few minutes and then try to get out of there before anyone noticed.
Quote: RivaFirst..as to my gender. Riva was the name of my childhood dog. Now, don't you feel silly? :)
No, because we still didn't get an answer to the question. lol
Quote: Beethoven9thNo, because we still didn't get an answer to the question. lol
So, was the dog male or female? =P
Quote: Beethoven9thNo, because we still didn't get an answer to the question. lol
Male obv. All dogs are male. All cats are female.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSo he is betting 5 numbers and 20 pairs for $5 each ($125 in total bets), losing $100 of that, and winning $365 on his other $25 worth of bets. Net profit = $265/spin. So now he has to buy in, and win 19 spins in a row. In 15 minutes.
I seriously doubt that your non-professional dealer can do a wheel spin, scoop the losing bets, then cut, stack, and ship the winnings in less than 2 minutes. Certainly no less than 90 seconds. Even if he is paying him in $5 chips, that is over 3 and a half stacks of chips. Non-pros will have trouble counting out this amount, and even pushing them without toppling them over.
If your dealer pushed the guy $5k in 15 minutes, then he was overpaying the guy. Either cheating or incompetent. I remain open to the possibility that the guy acquired some of the chips in some other manner, though.
Maybe, in addition to the guy cheating, the dealer was accidentally (or not) paying him off in stacks of $10 chips instead of stacks of $5 chips? I still think that there's not enough time, but at least there is some room for argument there.
If he was paying him in stacks of $5 chips instead of stacks of $1s (ie, 18+ stacks of 5's), now it's starting to sound like there might be enough time to pull this off (it's just 3 big wins with some losing bets mixed in). This is possible if the dealer is not in on it, but sufficiently gullible/incompetent. In fact, this wouldn't even require a gaffed wheel. Just cover the layout with lots of bets -- they are paying 125-1 on the numbers and 60-1 on the pairs, after all. The guy may not even have been a cheat -- he may have just noticed the ridiculous payoffs and decided to hit as hard as he could for a few minutes and then try to get out of there before anyone noticed.
Axiom...
All valid points. We keep $1, $5, and $10 chips at the table. The $10 are used mostly for larger payouts. Again, the table is 20" long whit a layout on each side and the wheel & chips in the middle. It has a 3-man crew, 2 dealers and the spinner. The spinner also mucks chips. The mucker works the hardest of the 3. All the dealer does is sweep and pay, sweep and pay. It goes REAL fast, even with a loaded table of 7-10 players per-side.
On payouts of this amount, we would never pay in $1's, or even $5's. WAY too much work for the dealer. The chips are in stacks of 20 so to pay $265, the dealer would simply grab an entire stack of black ($200), 6 more black ($60) and a red ($5). Done in 5 seconds. Remember, He was the ONLY player at the table! The only inordinate delay I could envision is the fellow breaking 10's in to 5's because we have a $5 max bet limit. Even then, him tossing us 10 black and asking for 20 red would takes seconds. Again, he was the only player at the table.
With regard to guy coming in and just betting hard??? NOPE..both you and I know that you can't win that much, that quickly without there being some skank going on. I've had player win $700-$1,000 on roulette before but it took WAY longer to get to that amount--particularly when we shave the payouts. No, this guy knew that the pill was going to land in the same 6"-8" of the wheel virtually every spin. He dressed up like Bozo so people would not watch where the ball dropped but rather, look at him. Heck, I was even watching him after I was alerted to the events, thinking he was past posting. All he had to do was stand therein all his goofiness, watch us sweat with each spin and let the magnet do its magic.
The reason I feel this was a scam was/is the email/text I was erroneously cc'd on by the poker room guy who was padlocked to the wheel rental guy months after all this stuff occurred. The poker room guy, when discovering I had a huge game (while I buying tables from him), sends a text to his pal (the rental guy) essentially asking about the vulnerability of our event. The rental guy replies: "Nothing there. They have a $500 cap." I never met the rental guy in my life and would have absolutely no reason to tell him we have a $500 cap. I firmly believe that the only way he knew about our $500 cap was that his soldier (the magician) told him that after this incident. After all, he rented us the wheel. Why/how else would the rental guy know, or more importantly, care, that we had a $500 cap?
A $500 cap should not prevent them from hitting you. You get 20 guys and pay them $100 apiece to carry $500 out. Do it every day of your 3- or 4- day event or whatever. Each person could probably get away with doing it 2x per day, at least.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDidn't you say that the $500 cap was a state law? That would explain how he knew about it, particularly if he is in the business of renting to people who run these events.
A $500 cap should not prevent them from hitting you. You get 20 guys and pay them $100 apiece to carry $500 out. Do it every day of your 3- or 4- day event or whatever. Each person could probably get away with doing it 2x per day, at least.
Axiom...Again I stated that I "thought" it could be state law. Perhaps it was and maybe it still is. All I know is that "our" house policy is a $500 cap. Now, with that said, do you honestly think that the rental guy would send out his soldier (the magician) with the understanding that the most he could scam us out of was $500? Chump change!
And, 20 guys working as a team each to scam a measly $500 from Riva's tent--and still have to split the juice with the wizard? What do you think this is, Oceans 11? NOT!
All this boils down to is the wheel rental guy stuffing us with a gaffed wheel, sending in his soldier (the magician) to perform his "magic", cash out and split before we (me) can come out of the ether (hour #1 of a 4-day weekend).
Again, go back to the email/text conversation between two grease-balls that, I was not supposed to see...."NOTHING THERE. THEY HAVE A $500 CAP!!!!"
Quote: RivaAxiom...Again I stated that I "thought" it could be state law. Perhaps it was and maybe it still is. All I know is that "our" house policy is a $500 cap. Now, with that said, do you honestly think that the rental guy would send out his soldier (the magician) with the understanding that the most he could scam us out of was $500? Chump change!
And, 20 guys working as a team each to scam a measly $500 from Riva's tent--and still have to split the juice with the wizard? What do you think this is, Oceans 11? NOT!
All this boils down to is the wheel rental guy stuffing us with a gaffed wheel, sending in his soldier (the magician) to perform his "magic", cash out and split before we (me) can come out of the ether (hour #1 of a 4-day weekend).
Again, go back to the email/text conversation between two grease-balls that, I was not supposed to see...."NOTHING THERE. THEY HAVE A $500 CAP!!!!"
I remember the $500 cap from various Vegas nights. We didn't have one in our poker room for the bj game nor do I remember seeing it posted on the licenses.
Quote: teddysSlightly off-topic, but how much appetite for gambling is there in Michigan? There is an Indian casino every five feet now, plus the Detroit and Windsor casinos, and Toledo. Do people really need to gamble so much that they come to a charity event?
Excellent question.....
We have been conducting our "millionaire parties" for 40 years. For a while, we were the only game in town unless you wanted to go to Las vegas. Then, along came Atlantic City. We thought we were in big trouble.
Then, along came the casinos in Windsor and Detroit as well as the Indian casinos all over the Sate. We thought we were doomed.
Even with the growth of the poker rooms (which are under gigantic legislative scrutiny at the moment), our business has flourished. Why? It's because we offer the little guy the opportunity to have have a fun night out, without driving in to a crime-infested city, perhaps win a few hundred bucks, perhaps loose a few hundred bucks, not have to wager $25 as a minimum bet and, drink $3 16 oz draft beers all night long. The biggest thing that has impacted our business is the smoking law that prohibits one from smoking in a public building. For some, smoking a gambling are one-in-the-same. The 3 Detroit casinos carved out an exemption for themselves from this state-wide law. That has hurt our business somewhat, but not giant.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI remember the $500 cap from various Vegas nights. We didn't have one in our poker room for the bj game nor do I remember seeing it posted on the licenses.
We put up the signs everywhere, not because it's (possibly) state law, but rather, we don't want "screamers" at the cashier's table. It also, knowingly, works against us because players are aware of it, and know how to easily get around it.
Quote: teddysSlightly off-topic, but how much appetite for gambling is there in Michigan? There is an Indian casino every five feet now, plus the Detroit and Windsor casinos, and Toledo. Do people really need to gamble so much that they come to a charity event?
Before the casinos, these Vegas nights were widely popular and you could practically find one every weekend. Now, since the casinos and charity poker rooms, they are much more difficult to find but some of the big ones still flourish. The first time I had ever played blackjack was at one. I don't remember the house rules but I do remember I made $18 :-)
Quote: RivaWe put up the signs everywhere, not because it's (possibly) state law, but rather, we don't want "screamers" at the cashier's table. It also, knowingly, works against us because players are aware of it, and know how to easily get around it.
You never did PM me your location. I think I have a good idea.
Quote: IbeatyouracesYou never did PM me your location. I think I have a good idea.
You do realize that you have made it publicly known, multiple times, that you are a professional advantage player. I might suggest this has something to do with him not PMing the location of his event.
