Roulette: Cheater, Lucky or Us?
February 19th, 2014 at 7:45:15 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOver two hours, you'd have to win about half. I'm pretty sure that some of the other players would notice if the ball kept landing on the same number on 1/2 of the spins.
I do not know what was going on here, but it was not wheel bias. If it was over an 8-hour period, I'd believe that it was possible. Even that would be a stretch.
Here are my sums, based on what I have read and my own experiences.
1) The initial buy in was $100 so I will assume he needs to have 1 stack of $5 chips to play with after each spin.
2) He can place up to 10 numbers and one split on each number covering the same number (20-chips)
3) If he knows the wheel was "heavily biased" let's say he has a success rate of 80% (which could still be a little high but we don't know the severity of the wheel imbalance).
4) Each hit will yield him $185 ($125 straight up and $60 split)
5) He will get $85 in cash and a fresh stack of 20 $5 chips to outlay.
6) He could earn $2550 per hour considering 30 spins per hour with a 100% win rate.
I think we could assume he could win approximately $2k per hour with the above parameters.
Obviously we don't know exactly how long he played and we also don't know how biased the wheel was.
I have to think that, if the wheel was heavily biased that the result could be within a 10 number section relatively constantly?
Thoughts?
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 19th, 2014 at 7:50:26 PM
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This doesn't even come close to matching the original story. The original claim was:
"15 minutes or so" is 7 or 8 spins. Maybe 10.
Decribing a 2 hour period as "15 minutes or so" is a stretch. Sure, maybe it took 20 or 25 minutes. But 2 hours? Come on. We are being had. This story is bullshit.
Quote:The guy was betting straight up numbers and pairs and he was murdering us. All bets were the $5 house max. After about 15 minutes or so, the guy was up over $5,000. The most we have ever lost to a player was about $500 so, this was nuts!
"15 minutes or so" is 7 or 8 spins. Maybe 10.
Decribing a 2 hour period as "15 minutes or so" is a stretch. Sure, maybe it took 20 or 25 minutes. But 2 hours? Come on. We are being had. This story is bullshit.
February 19th, 2014 at 7:55:36 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThis doesn't even come close to matching the original story. The original claim was:
"15 minutes or so" is 7 or 8 spins. Maybe 10.
Decribing a 2 hour period as "15 minutes or so" is a stretch. Sure, maybe it took 20 or 25 minutes. But 2 hours? Come on. We are being had. This story is bullshit.
Ax, I wasn't agreeing with her or trying to prove her story, I was merely trying to create a timeline that I thought would be somewhat accurate.
Yes her story sounds very flawed but then again she does admit she was busy at the time and was not hawking the wheel when this happened.
Reminds me of one of my favorite parts of My Cousin Vinny, when Vinny is grilling one of the witnesses about how long it took him to cook his grits that morning......
".............are you sure about that 5 minutes???? Are you SURE about that 5 minutes????"
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 19th, 2014 at 7:56:40 PM
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Quote: Tomspur".............are you sure about that 5 minutes???? Are you SURE about that 5 minutes????"
:)
February 19th, 2014 at 9:33:59 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoice:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkbtP-t_D8
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 19th, 2014 at 9:43:42 PM
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Quote: Buzzardhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZkbtP-t_D8
It cut out the whole crux.......:)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
February 20th, 2014 at 3:30:20 AM
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I didn't read everything perhaps I missed something
This all makes no sense and sounds hokey. Why would anyone win 5k if they could only cash in $500
If the dealer was involved, he had to know dam well the cash out limit was $500, even if he were able to come back night after night to cash the chip.
What happens to chips people won over the $500, when and where can they cash them? Even if you were to get multiple people to cash them, this is a very elaborate cheating scheme for 5k. The person Rigging the wheel or whatever was done, had to also know the max was $500 cash out.
The cheater put of a stink and called to police, Seriously?
Why so blatant? If in fact this guy was a magician, and all this is true, you better look elsewhere and not at the 5k chips he won. This sounds like some Movie plot where the guy wants you to only think he was cheating your roulette, meanwhile someone is stealing your safe or something else.
Perhaps this was all done as a planned game security firm?
This all makes no sense and sounds hokey. Why would anyone win 5k if they could only cash in $500
If the dealer was involved, he had to know dam well the cash out limit was $500, even if he were able to come back night after night to cash the chip.
What happens to chips people won over the $500, when and where can they cash them? Even if you were to get multiple people to cash them, this is a very elaborate cheating scheme for 5k. The person Rigging the wheel or whatever was done, had to also know the max was $500 cash out.
The cheater put of a stink and called to police, Seriously?
Why so blatant? If in fact this guy was a magician, and all this is true, you better look elsewhere and not at the 5k chips he won. This sounds like some Movie plot where the guy wants you to only think he was cheating your roulette, meanwhile someone is stealing your safe or something else.
Perhaps this was all done as a planned game security firm?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
February 20th, 2014 at 8:26:50 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfI didn't read everything perhaps I missed something
This all makes no sense and sounds hokey. Why would anyone win 5k if they could only cash in $500
If the dealer was involved, he had to know dam well the cash out limit was $500, even if he were able to come back night after night to cash the chip.
What happens to chips people won over the $500, when and where can they cash them? Even if you were to get multiple people to cash them, this is a very elaborate cheating scheme for 5k. The person Rigging the wheel or whatever was done, had to also know the max was $500 cash out.
The cheater put of a stink and called to police, Seriously?
Why so blatant? If in fact this guy was a magician, and all this is true, you better look elsewhere and not at the 5k chips he won. This sounds like some Movie plot where the guy wants you to only think he was cheating your roulette, meanwhile someone is stealing your safe or something else.
Perhaps this was all done as a planned game security firm?
February 20th, 2014 at 8:44:25 AM
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Having signs up is not an excuse for having poor customer service. He should have been informed of the max win limit once he came close. Essentially what it boils down to is the charity is happy to potentially still take his money when he is not able to take any more of the charitys money.
February 20th, 2014 at 9:45:41 AM
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Cut Riva some slack. I have been a volunteer at charity gaming events plenty of times, as a dealer and a pit boss. When your workforce is a bunch of volunteers, you have to expect a certain amount of... mistakes.
Granted, this episode is more than a series of mistakes. More is going on that we may never know, that Riva may never know. I only had three BJ tables to watch at my event, but on top of that, had to ensure banks were reconciling, volunteers were getting breaks, and that a dice table could open up. I have no idea what level of volunteers Riva has, nor what rank Riva has. There are a lot of places to point out faults, and Riva seems to be open to it... if not welcoming to it, if not to improve the way things are run. Instead, a lot of nitpicking about a story has become the focus of the thread.
Perhaps there is more to the story than is coming out, facts may be mixed up, timelines could be skewed... but Riva is not a first-hand witness to a lot of this it seems, and he's trying to figure out the best way to protect himself in the future. I am only coming to a second-hand defense because I am going to be in a similar situation in less than 2 weeks, and I respect the advice given by those here.
As for signs being posted, sometimes that's all that can be done. Could the dealer have said something along the lines of, "Cash out limit is $500"? Yes, perhaps so. Perhaps they were never trained on such a thing. Perhaps they saw someone winning over and over and over, and in the shock of it all, didn't think to say it.
It sounds like Riva needs to improve in some areas of these charitable events... but he recognizes that, and is looking for help. I am interested in any closure to this story as well, but in the meantime, keep an open mind.
Granted, this episode is more than a series of mistakes. More is going on that we may never know, that Riva may never know. I only had three BJ tables to watch at my event, but on top of that, had to ensure banks were reconciling, volunteers were getting breaks, and that a dice table could open up. I have no idea what level of volunteers Riva has, nor what rank Riva has. There are a lot of places to point out faults, and Riva seems to be open to it... if not welcoming to it, if not to improve the way things are run. Instead, a lot of nitpicking about a story has become the focus of the thread.
Perhaps there is more to the story than is coming out, facts may be mixed up, timelines could be skewed... but Riva is not a first-hand witness to a lot of this it seems, and he's trying to figure out the best way to protect himself in the future. I am only coming to a second-hand defense because I am going to be in a similar situation in less than 2 weeks, and I respect the advice given by those here.
As for signs being posted, sometimes that's all that can be done. Could the dealer have said something along the lines of, "Cash out limit is $500"? Yes, perhaps so. Perhaps they were never trained on such a thing. Perhaps they saw someone winning over and over and over, and in the shock of it all, didn't think to say it.
It sounds like Riva needs to improve in some areas of these charitable events... but he recognizes that, and is looking for help. I am interested in any closure to this story as well, but in the meantime, keep an open mind.
-Dween!
February 20th, 2014 at 10:00:30 AM
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Quote: Riva
I am sorry if some of you have difficulty digesting these events as I have described them. They did, however, pretty much occur as I have shared--without embellishment. Perhaps not 100% accurate--but without any embellishment.
Conversely, I would like to thank some of you for sharing your opinion on how this caper could have come down. Frankly, I would not have thought of some of these things in a million years. I come to this site solely to learn thing so that I can make our events more profitable and make it so we are less exposed to loss. That's it!
As for cops...we have 4 uniformed police officers in our gambling tent at all times. We pay for them. They are real cops and they are on duty but, we have to pay for them. We might have 500 people in our tent on a hot summer weekend evening and, beer is flowing. It's money well spent.
As mentioned, 99% of the players are aware of the $500 max win rule. Plus, there are signs posted everywhere. Moreover, they all know how to get around it. We don't go crazy enforcing it as the event as a whole still is profitable. Basically, it's there to protect us from a situation like this which is really a "smash and grab" job. Again, I had never seen this person before and I have been volunteering at this event for a long time. I am certain he was not aware of our $500 cap when he left his house that day, otherwise, he would have said that this job was not worth his while.
As mentioned, we own all of our tables but at the time, we rented the roulette wheels from a local company. For some reason, we rented the wheels from a different company than the company had done business with in the past for 20 years. When I showed up a few hours before the doors opened for the first night, I was annoyed to see that the new company delivered a 25" wheel instead of the 32" wheel that was ordered. I called the company and explained. They apologized and said they would switch out the wheels the following day. Not the end of the world, I thought, it's just that players like a big wheel. So, we opened the doors and people start flowing in, including our pal. He buys some chips from the cashier's table and goes directly to the roulette table and that when everything that I have described heretofore goes down.
Now, fast forward several months. I'm on Craigslist and I see an ad for used poker tables. We need more tables as our old ones were getting pretty worn out. I contacted the seller and the next day drove the 100 miles to inspect the tables. They were nice tables and more importantly, they had folding legs so they can easily be put in storage. It turns out, the tables were used in a poker room that this guy operated which was padlocked by the state of Michigan for flagrant violations of the gaming laws. Nothing is secret in the Internet. We agreed on a price. I left a deposit and said that I would return in a few days with a truck to pick up the tables. Before leaving, we exchange contact information so I can coordinate the pick-up, etc. I probabaly sent him 3 or 4 emails in the interem.
Despite the fact that I knew the tables came from a game room that the state had padlocked, there was really nothing out of the ordinary except the fellow seemed extraordinarily interested in my event. Apparently, he has never heard about an event as large as ours. He asked about where we buy/rent our equipment, how we pay/train our dealers, who handles cash. A LOT of questions. And naturally, I tell him everything as I'm quite proud of our events. Perhaps dummy me.
Then a strange thing happened...and I really can't explain exactly how it happened,,,but I was cc'd on one of the emails (or it might have been a text) I sent to the seller. Actually, he simply forwards the message to somebody else without deleting me. However it occurred, I am reading somebody else's mail. And...get ready...the message is sent to the fellow I had rented the 25" roulette wheel last summer where the big conflict occurred.
The message read to the effect. "ever heard of this event? It's huge". The guy from the rental place responds "Yes. I rented wheels to them last year. Nothing there. Tight game. Have a $500 cap."
Most embarrassed because I was reading an email or text exchange that clearly I was not intended to see, I gave it no further thought. We picked the tables and have used them at our events for about 2 years now. And, that was the only event that I rented wheels from that particular company. Then it struck me...
to be continued...
February 20th, 2014 at 10:11:46 AM
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So because 99% of the players know about the max win rule its okay then for the other 1% to be potentially swindled?
February 20th, 2014 at 10:15:32 AM
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Quote: rudeboyoiSo because 99% of the players know about the max win rule its okay then for the other 1% to be potentially swindled?
It is what it is.
February 20th, 2014 at 10:22:21 AM
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Quote: RivaWoulds it make you feel any better if I told you the $500 cap is state law versus house policy? Sheesh!
I don't care if its a law or policy. Its poor customer service to not make sure they're aware of the cap while still willing to take their action on a wager they can't win on.
February 20th, 2014 at 10:23:01 AM
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Yes.Quote: rudeboyoiSo because 99% of the players know about the max win rule its okay then for the other 1% to be potentially swindled?
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. There are clearly posted signs.
Because 99% of the drivers know not to park in lot C when the sign states you have to have an orange placard in your car, it's ok for the other 1% to get their car towed?
Yes.
-Dween!
February 20th, 2014 at 10:29:10 AM
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Quote: DweenYes.
Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. There are clearly posted signs.
Because 99% of the drivers know not to park in lot C when the sign states you have to have an orange placard in your car, it's ok for the other 1% to get their car towed?
Yes.
That analogy isn't remotely the same. There would have to be a parking lot attendant located in the parking lot next to the spot you parked who noticed you didn't have an orange placard but decided to just let you park there anyways without making you aware of the fact that your car could be towed.
February 20th, 2014 at 10:54:44 AM
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Sorry--nature break.
OK....and then it hit me. I say to myself how would the guy from the rental company know that we have a $500 cap? I never shared that. I never even met the person. everything was done by phone. Perhaps his deliver staff saw the signs when they dropped off the wheels earlier that day and shared it with him? Nah! More importantly, why would he preface his statement about the $500 cap with the words "nothing there"? What does "nothing there" mean?
At the time, all I thought was the rental company could be the same company that provided the poker room with their equipment. It's certainly logical. You have to get your equipment from somebody, right? Perhaps the two guys are old pals from the army. Who knows. But this conversation that I somehow and unknowingly included in was between a fellow who recently had his operation padlocked for multiple violations of the state gaming laws and a fellow that rented me a tilted wheel. Again, look at the conversation...."Nothing there, they have a $500 cap." All I'm saying is.."birds of a feather..."
This is all water under the bridge because the poker room is still padlocked and the rental business is closed. With that said, this is my theory of the events. And, I don't think anybody on the planet would ever think a scam like this could ever be thought up. But obviously, where there's a will, there's a way.
Call me anything you want but I believe that the rental company smelled new blood when I called them to rent the wheel. He sent out a wheel he knew was tilted. And, he told his accomplice (the magician) to be there when the doors open, scam as much as you can and get out quick. And, the rental guy knew that I would blow a cork because they delivered a 25 inch wheel so, it would give them a reason to to switch out the tilted wheel. What he didn't know was that we have this horrible $500 cap that prevented the magician from walking out with the loot!
I don't like admitting this, but our volunteers could not pick up on a tilted roulette wheel any more than they could fly to the moon. They put in their 8 hours and then go home. To them, if the wheel is spinning, everything is just peachy. The rental guy knows this and counts on that to run this very elaborate scam. This time, it did not work for him because of the cap. I just wonder how many zillion other charities he has pulled this caper on? Again..."Nothing there".
Thanks.
OK....and then it hit me. I say to myself how would the guy from the rental company know that we have a $500 cap? I never shared that. I never even met the person. everything was done by phone. Perhaps his deliver staff saw the signs when they dropped off the wheels earlier that day and shared it with him? Nah! More importantly, why would he preface his statement about the $500 cap with the words "nothing there"? What does "nothing there" mean?
At the time, all I thought was the rental company could be the same company that provided the poker room with their equipment. It's certainly logical. You have to get your equipment from somebody, right? Perhaps the two guys are old pals from the army. Who knows. But this conversation that I somehow and unknowingly included in was between a fellow who recently had his operation padlocked for multiple violations of the state gaming laws and a fellow that rented me a tilted wheel. Again, look at the conversation...."Nothing there, they have a $500 cap." All I'm saying is.."birds of a feather..."
This is all water under the bridge because the poker room is still padlocked and the rental business is closed. With that said, this is my theory of the events. And, I don't think anybody on the planet would ever think a scam like this could ever be thought up. But obviously, where there's a will, there's a way.
Call me anything you want but I believe that the rental company smelled new blood when I called them to rent the wheel. He sent out a wheel he knew was tilted. And, he told his accomplice (the magician) to be there when the doors open, scam as much as you can and get out quick. And, the rental guy knew that I would blow a cork because they delivered a 25 inch wheel so, it would give them a reason to to switch out the tilted wheel. What he didn't know was that we have this horrible $500 cap that prevented the magician from walking out with the loot!
I don't like admitting this, but our volunteers could not pick up on a tilted roulette wheel any more than they could fly to the moon. They put in their 8 hours and then go home. To them, if the wheel is spinning, everything is just peachy. The rental guy knows this and counts on that to run this very elaborate scam. This time, it did not work for him because of the cap. I just wonder how many zillion other charities he has pulled this caper on? Again..."Nothing there".
Thanks.
February 20th, 2014 at 11:23:28 AM
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How much do you have in chips at each table (BJ, Rou, Bac, Crap, etc.) at the start of the event?
February 20th, 2014 at 11:27:56 AM
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If you insist on believing that you got scammed by a biased wheel, you will continue to get cheated, because this had nothing to do with a biased wheel.
Anyone who is capable of simple arithmetic can tell that it is simply not possible to win $5000 in 15 minutes at $5/bet while paying 25-1. You just don't have enough spins, even if you win every single time. It doesn't matter how biased the wheel is -- if you don't have enough spins, you don't have enough spins.
You were cheated some other way. The most likely scenarios are that he was being overpaid (WAY overpaid) or that he walked in with some chips. Or both.
The fact that you insist on believing this biased wheel theory, even though you've been proven wrong, is why you got cheated, and why you will continue to get cheated. If the person running the casino can't do simple arithmetic, the vultures will swarm.
Anyone who is capable of simple arithmetic can tell that it is simply not possible to win $5000 in 15 minutes at $5/bet while paying 25-1. You just don't have enough spins, even if you win every single time. It doesn't matter how biased the wheel is -- if you don't have enough spins, you don't have enough spins.
You were cheated some other way. The most likely scenarios are that he was being overpaid (WAY overpaid) or that he walked in with some chips. Or both.
The fact that you insist on believing this biased wheel theory, even though you've been proven wrong, is why you got cheated, and why you will continue to get cheated. If the person running the casino can't do simple arithmetic, the vultures will swarm.
February 20th, 2014 at 11:30:11 AM
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Quote: endermikeHow much do you have in chips at each table (BJ, Rou, Bac, Crap, etc.) at the start of the event?
BJ are seeded with $100 each x 20 , roulette: $2000 x 2, craps $2000 x1 , no bac, wheels $200 x 3
corrected
February 20th, 2014 at 11:31:26 AM
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Now, now, let's not jump to conclusions here. Maybe the wheel was so biased it started paying out extra chips on wins.
February 20th, 2014 at 11:32:29 AM
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How many chips at the event in total including the cashier (big bank)?
February 20th, 2014 at 11:33:44 AM
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Do you think your dealers might have let him bet above $5 per spin?
February 20th, 2014 at 11:36:34 AM
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Are all chips at the table the same denomination?
February 20th, 2014 at 11:40:06 AM
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It does sound like your next investment might want to be a nice digital security system with multiple cameras and lots of data storage capacity. Even if you never go back and watch what is recorded, just the knowledge of the cameras being there should keep everyone in line just that much more.
And then, if something does happen again, you won't have to be guessing at what happened.
PS. Until you are ready to spend that money, go buy some of the dummy cameras, and hang them up there so people and dealers at least 'think' they are being recorded.
And then, if something does happen again, you won't have to be guessing at what happened.
PS. Until you are ready to spend that money, go buy some of the dummy cameras, and hang them up there so people and dealers at least 'think' they are being recorded.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
February 20th, 2014 at 11:42:19 AM
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Quote: sodawaterNow, now, let's not jump to conclusions here. Maybe the wheel was so biased it started paying out extra chips on wins.
Lol. The guy hit his number 40 times on 10 spins!!! That is the most biased wheel ever. It hits four 12's every spin!
February 20th, 2014 at 11:44:11 AM
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Now that you mention it, he didn't say how many balls the game was using.
February 20th, 2014 at 11:44:15 AM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIf you insist on believing that you got scammed by a biased wheel, you will continue to get cheated, because this had nothing to do with a biased wheel.
Anyone who is capable of simple arithmetic can tell that it is simply not possible to win $5000 in 15 minutes at $5/bet while paying 25-1. You just don't have enough spins, even if you win every single time. It doesn't matter how biased the wheel is -- if you don't have enough spins, you don't have enough spins.
You were cheated some other way. The most likely scenarios are that he was being overpaid (WAY overpaid) or that he walked in with some chips. Or both.
The fact that you insist on believing this biased wheel theory, even though you've been proven wrong, is why you got cheated, and why you will continue to get cheated. If the person running the casino can't do simple arithmetic, the vultures will swarm.
Ax, babycakes, relax! I'm beginning to think you don't like me :)
Respectfully, your theory is wrong. If indeed the fellow was on the table for more than 15 minutes is immaterial. The fact is when he walked up to the cashiers table to cash out, he had $5,000 in chips that were passed to him from the roulette table. That's all that matters. Also, why would one of our volunteers approach me in a panic declaring "that guy at the roulette table is in to us for 5 grand"? That panic came from witnessing our chips being pushed to the player.
Plus, if he had walked in with chips, why would he bother even going to the roulette table? All he had to do would be to go to the cashier table and cash out.
Another thing, if he walked in with $5000 in chips he would have to put them somewhere. The highest denomination chip we have is $10. That's 500 chips. That's a bucket full of chops
February 20th, 2014 at 11:46:38 AM
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Quote: sodawaterNow that you mention it, he didn't say how many balls the game was using.
Good point. Use 38 balls; what could go wrong?
February 20th, 2014 at 11:53:09 AM
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Did your roulette table need a fill while he was playing?
February 20th, 2014 at 12:00:18 PM
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Quote: endermikeDo you think your dealers might have let him bet above $5 per spin?
Excellent point. It has happened but mostly on blackjack and mostly towards the end of the night when a player is trying to recoup his/her losses before last call. I discourage it because it exposes us to variance. Could this person have put down say, a $50 or $100 bet and the house take it? No, that's too tall of a bet. Plus, it was the opening bell.
February 20th, 2014 at 12:01:28 PM
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Quote: wudgedAre all chips at the table the same denomination?
no. $1, $5, $10
February 20th, 2014 at 12:04:38 PM
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Please answer
Quote: endermikeDid your roulette table need a fill while he was playing?
February 20th, 2014 at 12:05:41 PM
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Was the dealer paying him with $10 chips instead of $1 chips?
February 20th, 2014 at 12:13:46 PM
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Quote: endermikeDid your roulette table need a fill while he was playing?
It had to get a fill because they didn't have that much seed money. I think it was the fill that set off the sirens. Again, I was setting up craps while most of this went down. Plus, I did not panic because I knew the about the cap. And, I also knew there was going to be a major battle if the guy went to cash out right away. On the other hand, the guy could have taken his bucket of chips (and it was literally a "bucket" of chips) and gone on to play for the rest of the night--and perhaps lost it all. As it was, he stayed for the short time that he did and tried to cash out all 5 grand. That tells me he was really dumb, didn't have any friends to off his excess to and/or had no prior knowledge of our cap.
February 20th, 2014 at 12:13:54 PM
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Quote: RivaRespectfully, your theory is wrong. If indeed the fellow was on the table for more than 15 minutes is immaterial.
It is not immaterial. You said that it was about 15 minutes.
Now, if it was 20 minutes instead of 15, fine. That's immaterial.
But if it was 4 hours instead of 15 minutes, and you described a 4 hour time span as "about 15 minutes", then it's hard to tell which parts of your story are close to accurate and which ones aren't. Maybe his $5000 was actually $20. And maybe he bought in for $3000 instead of $500. And maybe it was blackjack instead of roulette (wait, you mean winning hands on blackjack don't pay 25-1?). I really have no idea.
Quote:The fact is when he walked up to the cashiers table to cash out, he had $5,000 in chips that were passed to him from the roulette table. That's all that matters. Also, why would one of our volunteers approach me in a panic declaring "that guy at the roulette table is in to us for 5 grand"? That panic came from witnessing our chips being pushed to the player.
I have no doubt that chips were being pushed to the player. I seriously doubt that the right number of chips were being pushed to the player. It's also not hard to add to a stack of chips with chips that you walked in with.
Quote:Plus, if he had walked in with chips, why would he bother even going to the roulette table? All he had to do would be to go to the cashier table and cash out.
Because he's not an idiot?
Let's see, I walk in as soon as the casino opens on the first day, don't play a single game, walk straight to the cage, and try to cash out $5k. Yup, nothing suspicious there. Business as usual.
Quote:Another thing, if he walked in with $5000 in chips he would have to put them somewhere. The highest denomination chip we have is $10. That's 500 chips. That's a bucket full of chops
I'm not saying that he walked in with all of them. But he can walk in with some of them, and add to the stack as he is being paid 25 $10 chips for a $5 bet on a number that he may or may not have hit because everyone is looking at the funny-looking guy with the checkered hat and all the chips instead of the ball on the roulette wheel. If he is indeed a magician, he is very good at diversion and you will look where he wants you to look (which is everywhere except for the wheel and the stacks of chips being pushed to him, most likely) This is why you need cameras.
I'm not saying that that's how he did it, but it's a plausible explanation.
Your theory of a biased wheel is not plausible. Let's say that the wheel is so biased that it lands on either 13 or one of its two neighbors on every single spin (note: no wheel is that biased). I'm not quite sure what you mean by $5 max bet ($5 total? Or $5 per bet?). Let's say it's $5 per bet. So he can put $5 on 13 and $5 on each of the 4 pairs that includes 13. He will win all bets (25 + 4*12 = 73 chips = $365) one time in 3, and lose $25 the other 2 times. So he is up $315 every 3 spins, or $105 per spin. It will still take him 48 spins or so to win $5000. That is about an hour and a quarter to an hour and a half. There is no way that anyone could describe that amount of time as "about 15 minutes".
Now, realistically, no wheel is that biased. You are looking at more like 5 to 10 hours even for an EXTREMELY biased wheel.
You keep saying that the amount of time at the table is irrelevant. It's not irrelevant! It's extremely relevant -- it it the main piece of evidence that shows that you were not cheated by a biased wheel. This should be relevant to you, because it tells you that whatever made you vulnerable before has not changed and you are STILL VULNERABLE. This is the key -- it is almost certain that you will get cheated again. You might not notice this time though, because this time they are aware of the $500 rule and will probably spread it out over 10 people and over multiple days, so this time you will actually lose the $5k. Or maybe $10k or $20k.
If you don't care, then fine, but that's what's going to happen if you insist on sticking to this "biased wheel" theory.
February 20th, 2014 at 12:17:31 PM
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Quote: wudgedWas the dealer paying him with $10 chips instead of $1 chips?
This is the most likely scenario I think, combined with being paid for non-wins.
February 20th, 2014 at 12:19:02 PM
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Quote: wudgedWas the dealer paying him with $10 chips instead of $1 chips?
Yes, anything is possible however, I know the dealer and it's highly unlikely. Plus, if there was a fill so soon after the opening bell, it would have brought in the brass-which it did.
February 20th, 2014 at 12:20:46 PM
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What about a magnetic wheel / ball, guaranteeing it will land in the same slot every time?
February 20th, 2014 at 12:44:55 PM
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Quote: wudgedWhat about a magnetic wheel / ball, guaranteeing it will land in the same slot every time?
That's the whole point, there's still not enough time to win that many chips without mispays.
February 20th, 2014 at 12:46:19 PM
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Quote: wudgedWhat about a magnetic wheel / ball, guaranteeing it will land in the same slot every time?
It needs to be an electromagnet (so that it can be turned off and on) otherwise it won't have enough effect except over time which is not part of the story.
Riva, did they supply you guys the roulette balls also? How many balls did they give you? Did you guys rotate balls?
February 20th, 2014 at 12:49:27 PM
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Quote: Rivaroulette: $2000 x 2
Is that 2000 per side or 1000 per side?
February 20th, 2014 at 12:59:40 PM
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Quote: RivaYes, anything is possible however, I know the dealer and it's highly unlikely. Plus, if there was a fill so soon after the opening bell, it would have brought in the brass-which it did.
That's the issue right there. I think you're wrong about your dealer. Let's consider two possibilities:
a) The dealer is straight. He pays correctly and enforces the $5 max, yet despite this the player is able to empty the bank within minutes. That means the dealer is innocently observing the most unbelievable streak of good luck anyone has ever had on a roulette table, and doesn't bother to tell you about it.
b) The dealer is crooked. He notices the streak of wins, overpays them, and doesn't say anything.
Which is more likely, given the facts?
I think it's amply clear you were scammed by at least a two person team, including the dealer. It remains my opinion, given the facts that you have recited, that it is impossible for the player to have taken as much money off the table as you have reported if the dealer was properly paying the bets and enforcing the game rules, even if the player was 100% correct in every bet he made.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 20th, 2014 at 1:40:02 PM
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Quote: wudgedWhat about a magnetic wheel / ball, guaranteeing it will land in the same slot every time?
You know, I'm not so bullheaded to admit when I'm wrong or, so vain to boast when I am partially right. This thing is starting to make more sense to me, based on the input of a few people here. That's why I like this forum so much--I'm always learning
You build a plausible case against being able to win $5,000 in such a short period of time based solely on a biased wheel. As you say, it's too random for that. Mea culpa.
No, the dealer was not in on the caper. I know the person and it simply could not happen. Plus, after a fill, there were simply too many eyes focused on the table.
But wudge....I think you nailed it! It very possible that the wheel was rigged not to fall on just one number but several numbers--a "neighborhood" of numbers in the wheel, not on the layout. For example, you could make 1, 13, 36, 24, 3, 15, 22, and 34 all "hot" (magnetized). The numbers run in a sequence on the wheel but a located all over the place on the layout. That makes it looks like random betting to the house but in reality, it's betting on the neighborhood. With magnets, the probability of the ball landing in the neighborhood is astronomical. And again, it looks totally random to the house. i.e.:"How can a guy be so lucky?" All the fellow had to do is remember the hot numbers in the neighborhood, which I am certain he did (duh).
Now, was the wheel "hot" all night or, did he use some device to turn it on or off. Answer: you don't need to turn it on or off as a magnet is always "on". Plus, it has no moving parts. It's just a region of the roulette wheel that happens to be magnetized And since the rental company provides both the wheel and the balls, all the guy has to do is stand there and bet those numbers, Everything else takes care of itself. No past posting, no dealer collusion, no mechanical apparatus that could fail. It's a thing of beauty!
Plus, this also explains why he showed up so soon after the opening bell. He wanted to be in and out before the house possibly discovered that the ball was falling only in the same numbers--which happen to correspond to the neighborhood. While I'm somewhat embarrassed to say this, I don't think our volunteers would have picked up on this EVER. More than likely, the house would have closed the table because subsequent players would DEFINITELY pick up on this trend in a nano-second. So, this guy needed to be the first one in before the table got closed. To be honest, I can't recall if they closed the table or not. Probably not. In any event, the wheel (aka "evidence") got switched out the following day. Could that second wheel have been hot? Probably not once they knew of the $500 cap.
So, I was/am only partially right. The rental guy provided a rigged wheel and sent in his magical pal to slaughter the sheep. I thought it was a biased wheel whereas it was magnets. And, I probably would have never figured this out had I not been cc'd on the email or text message. "Nothing there. They got a $500 cap".
February 20th, 2014 at 1:44:56 PM
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Quote: RivaYou build a plausible case against being able to win $5,000 in such a short period of time based solely on a biased wheel.
You've got it...
Quote:As you say, it's too random for that.
No, you don't. No Time for that. You cannot win $5000 in that amount of time even if you win every bet.
Unless if you have a way to hit the number 4 or 5 times per spin (actually, more, given the time taken for the fill), you need another theory here.
February 20th, 2014 at 1:48:55 PM
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Did anybody check to see if chips were flushed down the toilet, ala Borgata ? ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 20th, 2014 at 1:50:45 PM
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Quote: endermikeIt needs to be an electromagnet (so that it can be turned off and on) otherwise it won't have enough effect except over time which is not part of the story.
Riva, did they supply you guys the roulette balls also? How many balls did they give you? Did you guys rotate balls?
I don't know much about magnets or electromagnets. But, if, as you say, it has to be turned on and off that would not a very difficult thing to execute even if he was the only person at the table. Everybody's eyes are on the table, not the player. plus, if he can turn off the electromagnet, that makes the table totally random once he leaves. And yes, the rental company supplied the balls and no, I am 100% certain the balls were not switched out. We don't own roulette balls. I'm beginning to get sick!
February 20th, 2014 at 1:54:13 PM
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Please answer
For the initial fill.
Quote: endermikeIs that 2000 per side or 1000 per side?
For the initial fill.
February 20th, 2014 at 2:09:36 PM
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Electromagnets. If one is going to implant a magnet in a wheel, they should go ahead and put in a remote controlled electromagnet so that they can turn the effect on and off.
Any game protection would catch a standard magnetic setup as crude as you are suggesting based on this player's wins and should be impossible to ignore for more than 50 or so spins.
Any game protection would catch a standard magnetic setup as crude as you are suggesting based on this player's wins and should be impossible to ignore for more than 50 or so spins.
February 20th, 2014 at 2:10:45 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceYou've got it...
No, you don't. No Time for that. You cannot win $5000 in that amount of time even if you win every bet.
Unless if you have a way to hit the number 4 or 5 times per spin (actually, more, given the time taken for the fill), you need another theory here.
If, as I had suggested, that a neighborhood of numbers were hot, you could have multiple wins on each spin. Yes, only one straight-up number would win but what about splits? Each one of those splits would pay $60. that pile could get big pretty quick. Plus, I was told he was just betting straight up and splits, which makes sense; biggest payouts in the shortest amount of time.
