21+3 Extreme
December 26th, 2013 at 10:21:21 AM
permalink
I was just curious if anyone knew what the HE is on the three card side bet in this game? Are all pay tables the same?
December 26th, 2013 at 10:46:13 AM
permalink
6 deck pay table:
Previous thread
I have a copy of my spread sheet in google docs
| Event | Combinations | Probability | Pays | Return |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Straight Flush | 62208 | 0.002068090606624 | 30 | 0.062042718198719 |
| trips | 157872 | 0.005248418213878 | 20 | 0.104968364277565 |
| straight | 933120 | 0.031021359099359 | 10 | 0.310213590993593 |
| flush | 1757376 | 0.058423559637127 | 5 | 0.292117798185633 |
| Pair | 5863104 | 0.194917539674308 | -1 | -0.194917539674308 |
| loser | 21306240 | 0.708321032768704 | -1 | -0.708321032768704 |
| Total | 30079920 | 1 | -0.133896100787502 |
Previous thread
I have a copy of my spread sheet in google docs
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
December 26th, 2013 at 11:53:25 AM
permalink
Quote: hook3670I was just curious if anyone knew what the HE is on the three card side bet in this game? Are all pay tables the same?
I have yet to see a different one than the one miplet shows above.
December 26th, 2013 at 11:54:25 AM
permalink
Wow that's twice as bad as the PairsPlus bet!! Well not quite but almost.
December 26th, 2013 at 11:55:49 AM
permalink
Quote: hook3670Wow that's twice as bad as the PairsPlus bet!! Well not quite but almost.
and over 4 times worse than the standard 21+3 paytable. Clear example of CET greed.
December 26th, 2013 at 12:23:17 PM
permalink
so there is a different 21+3 paytable out there? Granted I have only seen the game at CET properties.
December 26th, 2013 at 1:19:52 PM
permalink
There are about a dozen approved paytables in Nevada. I don't have the game, but I've considered it and if I were to bring it in I would probably use the 40, 30, 9, 6 paytable.
ZCore13
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
December 26th, 2013 at 1:54:34 PM
permalink
I've seen one where all pay 9:1 .. Flush or better.
December 26th, 2013 at 2:10:07 PM
permalink
Zcore, what is the HE on that paytable?
December 26th, 2013 at 2:10:52 PM
permalink
I have heard about the 9-1, but that didn't really make any sense to me to have the same payouts for everything. So that table really exists?
December 26th, 2013 at 2:14:47 PM
permalink
Quote: hook3670Zcore, what is the HE on that paytable?
I'm not at work right now, but I think about 8.5% if I recall.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
December 26th, 2013 at 2:14:54 PM
permalink
Quote: Zcore13There are about a dozen approved paytables in Nevada. I don't have the game, but I've considered it and if I were to bring it in I would probably use the 40, 30, 9, 6 paytable.
This "Extreme" pay table is the one that makes sense in that the HE drops below 4% and makes the bet a reasonable proposition for the players.
The question you have to ask yourself is whether your players would participate more with a 40X & 30X top end pay or if they would rather be "overpaid" 9-1 on flushes that represent 60% of the sub 10% hit rate.
I would run the 40/30/9/6 as a $1 min side bet and the 9/9/9/9 as a $5 min.....both on a $5 min BJ game. I bet you would get less than 5 times the dollar volume of action on the 40/30/9/6 game making the 9/9/9/9 a better game for the house.
It would be very interesting for an operator to run the 40/30/9/6 version side by side to the 9/9/9/9 version and see what game their players played more. Z is smart & progressive enough to make that happen....if he didn't have to deal with all the additional filings of having both pay tables on the floor at the same time :-).
December 26th, 2013 at 2:15:39 PM
permalink
Quote: Zcore13I'm not at work right now, but I think about 8.5% if I recall.
I must have miscalc'd by hand.....I had it as sub 4%
December 26th, 2013 at 2:16:49 PM
permalink
Quote: hook3670I have heard about the 9-1, but that didn't really make any sense to me to have the same payouts for everything. So that table really exists?
That is the pay table in the Gulf Coast and the one the game was designed to be played with originally.....I think it is the key to why it has been so popular in Mississippi......HE in the low 3%'s as I recall.
December 26th, 2013 at 6:55:37 PM
permalink
Quote: ParadigmI must have miscalc'd by hand.....I had it as sub 4%
You may not have. I was probably looking at mult-deck pay tables (5-8). You may have calculated for single deck?
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
December 26th, 2013 at 7:23:50 PM
permalink
Quote: Zcore13You may not have. I was probably looking at mult-deck pay tables (5-8). You may have calculated for single deck?
ZCore13
You miscalculated somewhere. All numbers below are for six decks.
40/30/9/6 is 3.33% for 6 decks (much more player friendly). The old 9/9/9/9 paytable is 3.24%. 40/30/10/5 is 6.07% also much better than CET crap.
I can guarantee you would get a better hold from the 40/30/9/6 table vs. the 9/9/9/9 table though.
December 27th, 2013 at 7:39:05 AM
permalink
Trig, why do you feel the 40/30/9/6 table would provide a better hold? I assume that also means you believe it would provide a better win for the house as well (assuming equivalence in the drop volume between the two versions). I don't have any objective evidence that suggests otherwise or to support my preference for the 9/9/9/9 table, so this is just a curiosity question on my part.
December 27th, 2013 at 8:35:23 AM
permalink
40/30/9/6 paytable is 8.8% HE with 2 decks. 4.73% with 4 decks. 3.9% with 5 decks. 2.6% with 8 decks.
ZCore13
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
December 27th, 2013 at 10:01:46 AM
permalink
In The UK the 9-1 bet has been very popular and many places are adding the "Top 3" bet (see UK literature for HE details). Personally I would include Suited Trips somehow as that is quite rare and can allow a nice headline (say 100-1). fwiw the "3" bet pays 9-1 and usually same minimum as the BJ, whereas the Top 3 is typically £1/£2/£5 min £10/£25 max (paying 270/180/90-1).Quote: Paradigm...whether your players would participate more with a 40X & 30X top end pay or if they would rather be "overpaid" 9-1 on flushes...
December 31st, 2013 at 8:28:47 PM
permalink
Quote: ParadigmTrig, why do you feel the 40/30/9/6 table would provide a better hold? I assume that also means you believe it would provide a better win for the house as well (assuming equivalence in the drop volume between the two versions). I don't have any objective evidence that suggests otherwise or to support my preference for the 9/9/9/9 table, so this is just a curiosity question on my part.
Ugh, sorry I missed this. I thought that an uneven paytable may create more action among the players on the side bet leading to more hold. But its higher variance may overweigh this.
August 11th, 2018 at 1:05:21 PM
permalink
It's just sad my local casino would put this kind of paytable on a Blackjack table. For a lucky walkup though, a $15 bet pays $450.
