SplittingAA
SplittingAA
Joined: Nov 13, 2009
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 49
April 27th, 2010 at 12:58:40 PM permalink
As I watched the Wizard play Pai Gow Tiles a week ago Sunday, I observed how he and the Young Man next to me both banked. Each played what appeared to be their maximum comfortable bet when playing against the House in order to get the House to reciprocate when they chose to be the banker. If I remember correctly each of them backed down their bets when the other player was banking; I assume to minimize the liability to each other.

Although I did not attempt to Bank at that time in that casino, mainly due to my limited bankroll not being able to cover the larger bets, I did try it at The Orleans playing Pai Gow Poker. A friend of mine set directly to my left and we were both banking with his turn preceding my own. When it was my friends turn to bank, I bet the table minimum, $10, for the reason mentioned above. The Orleans would not allow me to revert to my higher bet of $25, which is what I bet the hand before my friend banked i.e. when the House was the banker. I guess my question is what determines the amount that you are allowed to bet as the banker: the last amount wagered, the last amount wagered against the house, or something else? I will note that The Orleans banking sequence was just as the hands were ordered or you were offered to bank once every eight hands.

Later in the week, I was playing PGP at Excalibur and when the table emptied and it was just me and the dealer I asked the Pit Boss and he let me bank every other hand, alternating with the dealer. That was nice even though there were no copies to which I would have won. I got extra enjoyment knowing that I was playing at the lowest house advantage possible.
Phil: I'm pretty sure that's illegal too. Alan: Yeah, maybe after 9/11, where everybody got so sensitive. Thanks a lot, bin Laden.
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
April 27th, 2010 at 1:07:12 PM permalink
I don't think the casino is right, and I would have taken it to the pit to see why they ruled that way.

Casinos get sensitive at the Pai Gow table when players play together and sometimes will treat the bankroll as one unit instead of two. For that reason, when you are backing down to $10 while your friend banks, they are treating your bet as the smaller one. But I don't really understand the logic as they have the advantage both when you are banking and you are not. If you are betting $25 and the house has the bank, you should be able to bet $25 when it is your turn to bank. The solution to this issue is to simply play $25 when your friend banks and have him repay your loss, or to take your business elsewhere.

Do you notice that when the bank is circulating that the dealer places the chips the next banker bets in the tray to let them know how much you are allowed to bank when it is your turn?
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1336
  • Posts: 22046
April 27th, 2010 at 1:17:34 PM permalink
I think it is good pai gow etiquette that if another players wants to bank, and you know he may be uncomfortable with what you want to bet, then pull back some of it to where he is comfortable. That was indeed what was happening at the Palace Station -- a good example of good pai gow manners.

In pai gow tiles the rules are very firm that the turn to bank rotates around the table counterclockwise. When it is your turn to bank the dealer will bet against you up to 110% of what you bet against the dealer the last time the dealer banked. You may request the dealer bet less. Most of the time players request the dealer bet exactly what they bet against the dealer. If a lot of other players are also betting against me, I'll sometimes ask the dealer to decrease his/her bet, to limit my downside.

In pai gow poker there is much less consistency. I think players invoke the right to bank in that game so seldom that the dealers, and sometimes the floor, don't know what to do. Often the turn to bank won't rotate, but zig-zag between the dealer and the players. I've also seen it that if there is an empty seat, the turn reverts to the dealer. When I was reviewing the South Point I was surprised that when I asked to bank in pai gow poker, the dealer bet against me what I bet against the player to my left (JB) the previous turn. I made a small bet against him, because he is a low roller. So the next turn the dealer bet $10 against me, when I bet $100 against the dealer two turns ago. It made no sense.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
EnvyBonus
EnvyBonus
Joined: Nov 24, 2009
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 100
April 27th, 2010 at 5:34:03 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard


In pai gow poker there is much less consistency. I think players invoke the right to bank in that game so seldom that the dealers, and sometimes the floor, don't know what to do.



That reminds me of the time I lost a hand and still made money.

I was once at Barbary Coast playing PG Poker and it was just the dealer and me, so I was banking every other turn. I had reached a point where I decided I was either going to double up or go broke and leave to find my friends, who were at another casino. So, I increased my bet by putting all I had out there, making it about 3 times my normal bet size. The hand was a push.

Coincidentally, at that point my friends arrived from the other casino, and I told them "one more hand" as it was now my turn to Bank. However, I had come to my senses and decided to abandon my double-up or go broke strategy, so I asked the dealer to take the house bet back down to my "normal" bet size, or one-third my last bet.

The dealer refused to do so. He said the house bet amount was required to be the amount of my last bet. I tried to explain to him it was to my detriment to play for less, as the house edge was lower when I was Banking, but the dealer didn't want to hear it. (And in his defense, I'm sure he has to deal with plenty of player know-it-alls who want to tell him he's doing his job wrong when he's doing it right.) We then debated back and forth, both of us stubborn that our opinion was correct. He got moderately upset over it. I got mildly upset over it. I eventually gave up and told him okay, I'll play for the larger amount, but asked him to call the floor over for an "official" ruling so I'd know the next time I tried to bank for less.

He agreed and called the floor over, but was still so flustered about our disagreement that at the time he picked up the non-played hands at the empty seats, he realized he had mis-dealt. Even though the cards came out of the Shufflemaster machine, he had distributed the hands as if the house was the bank, not me. Plus, the dice and my seat position were such that I had the house hand and, of course, the house had the banker hand. At this point, the floor came over in response to his earlier request. Of course by now we had done away with the banking-for-less argument and were onto what to do about the dealing error.

The floor, probably anticipating an argument if we just switched hands to correct the problem, told the dealer to switch the hands, but if I lost, count it as a push. I agreed because since the cards are random I honestly would have been fine with just giving everybody the right hand and playing it as the fates intended. The hands were switched to make them correct. The floor stayed and watched how the hand turned out. I had a so-so hand, the specifics of which I can't remember. When the dealer turned over his cards, there might as well have been 7 Aces. It was a monster. I had lost, but per our agreement should've got a push. The floor stared at the dealer's hand and just shook his head for about 5 seconds, before uttering "go ahead and pay him anyway." The dealer didn't even question the floor; he promptly paid as if I had won.

I paid the commission, found my friends, and forever left the Barbary Coast. I say forever because even though I've been back to the building several times on trips since, it's obviously now Bill's Gamblin' Hall. But the Barbary Coast will always be the casino where I lost a hand and still won.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
April 28th, 2010 at 7:20:04 AM permalink
Mind if I clear up some doubts about banking?

I think I understand it, but I'm not sure. So let's try this example:

I chose to bank and everyone, dealer included, bets $10. First question, do I also palce a bet? If I do, then I assume the dealer (acting as the house) pays it off if I win, takes it if I lose.

Next, let's say there are a total of five bets on the table, excluding mine. If I lose to everyone I have to pay each player $10 minus the 5% comision, have I got that right? If I win over everyone, I take everyone's bets, no comission, right? So I stand to gain $50 but I stand to lose $47.50 plus my own bet in either case? And of course any number of in bewteen cases where I win some and lose others. Naturally I must have enough cash on hand, in the form of chips, to cover every bet.

And in the case of a tie (copy), I win the hand. But not in the case of a push. Right?

Yeah, I find the player banking thing confusing.

Other than that I'm developing a taste for Pai Gow Poker (sorry), but I find Tiles inscrutable thus far.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
PapaChubby
PapaChubby
Joined: Mar 29, 2010
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 493
April 28th, 2010 at 7:42:25 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Mind if I clear up some doubts about banking?

I think I understand it, but I'm not sure. So let's try this example:

I chose to bank and everyone, dealer included, bets $10. First question, do I also palce a bet? If I do, then I assume the dealer (acting as the house) pays it off if I win, takes it if I lose.



When you ask to bank, tell the dealer how much you wish the house to bet against you. "I'd like to bank for $10, please." The dealer will place the banker tile in your betting circle, and will place $10 in front of him/herself to cover you're bet. If the dealer knows I'm banking regularly, I'll indicate my intention by placing $10 next to my banking circle instead of in it. If you lose, the dealer will request the $10 from you, as well as any other player bets you may have lost.

Quote: Nareed

Next, let's say there are a total of five bets on the table, excluding mine. If I lose to everyone I have to pay each player $10 minus the 5% comision, have I got that right? If I win over everyone, I take everyone's bets, no comission, right? So I stand to gain $50 but I stand to lose $47.50 plus my own bet in either case? And of course any number of in bewteen cases where I win some and lose others. Naturally I must have enough cash on hand, in the form of chips, to cover every bet.



No, only winners pay commission. If you lose to everyone, the dealer will request $50 from you, pay $10 to each player, and receive $0.50 commission back from each winner. If you win, the dealer will give you $50, and ask for $2.50 in commissions on your win. As the banker, you pay commission on the net win. So if you win 4 $10 bets, including your own, and lose 2 $10 bets, you win a net of $20 and pay a $1 commission.

Quote: Nareed

And in the case of a tie (copy), I win the hand. But not in the case of a push. Right?



Yes. Banker wins all copy hands. But pushes are still pushes.

Quote: Nareed

Yeah, I find the player banking thing confusing.

Other than that I'm developing a taste for Pai Gow Poker (sorry), but I find Tiles inscrutable thus far.

DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 178
  • Posts: 10249
April 28th, 2010 at 7:47:14 AM permalink
I too find some aspects of banking confusing. Of course, I don't bank because I don't have the bankroll for it.

You do NOT place a bet when you bank. You're the banker. Much like when the dealer is the banker and the rack has to be sufficient to cover the player's bets, your stack has to cover the player's bets, as well as the dealer's bet. As has been discussed, the dealer will bet the same amount you bet the last time the dealer banked.



Quote:

I stand to gain $50 but I stand to lose $47.50

I'm 99% sure you got that backwards.

I.E. If you lose, you pay the bets at even money. The players then pay the 5% to the house. If you win, you collect the bet but then pay the house 5%.



Quote:

And in the case of a tie (copy), I win the hand. But not in the case of a push. Right?

Right. And that's the only advantage of banking, when you're the only player.

A push is still a push.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
April 29th, 2010 at 5:08:24 AM permalink
Thank you both very much. I'm quite sure I get it now.

I probably wouldn't bank at Pai Gow Poker with other players, no bankroll for it either, but I'd bank against the dealer now.

As with most other games, I suppose the path to full understanding is play itself, but it heps to know the rules beforehand.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
SplittingAA
SplittingAA
Joined: Nov 13, 2009
  • Threads: 4
  • Posts: 49
April 30th, 2010 at 1:22:04 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed


I probably wouldn't bank at Pai Gow Poker with other players, no bankroll for it either,



I'm definitely a low roller; playing the table minimums almost exclusively. But, I have not feared banking against a couple other players as long as they are playing the minimum also. Just remember how often pushes happen. Even if you have to put up $30 to cover yourself and two others; you very seldom payout the entire amount. I have no statistical data to support this, but I would venture to guess that even though collecting the entire $30 (minus the $1.50 commission) happens very seldom also, it probably happens more often than losing the entire $30.

Quote: Nareed

but I'd bank against the dealer now



Absolutely! If you can get to an empty table and go head to head against the dealer go for it. See if you can get the pit boss to let you bank every other hand like I did at Excalibur.

It hasn't been brought up in this thread, but for anyone who is completely new to banking in PGP, I should mention if you are worried about covering that possible monster bonus side bet (sucker bet) don't. The house covers that because the house collects it if the player loses.
Phil: I'm pretty sure that's illegal too. Alan: Yeah, maybe after 9/11, where everybody got so sensitive. Thanks a lot, bin Laden.
cburke
cburke
Joined: May 17, 2010
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 1
May 17th, 2010 at 2:35:58 PM permalink
Quote:

The dealer refused to do so. He said the house bet amount was required to be the amount of my last bet. I tried to explain to him it was to my detriment to play for less, as the house edge was lower when I was Banking, but the dealer didn't want to hear it.



I'm new to pai gow, but this statement makes me think I'm missing something about the odds when banking or exactly how it works. Isn't is actually still to your detriment to play for more (even when banking) because it's still an negative EV game whether or not you're banking?

This could just be something I'm misunderstanding about EV, does your overall EV increase when you bet more when your EV is "less negative" and bet less when it's "more negative"?

-C

  • Jump to: