UTH: folding with a paying trips hand
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June 9th, 2013 at 3:23:15 PM
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I was playing at my local casino which recently installed Ultimate Texas Holdem. They have a good Trips paytable, so I was playing that. On a couple hands, the board has a trips but I couldn't play may kickers, so I planned to fold and just collect my trips when the other players told me I had to play to get paid on my trips.
I believe the official rule is you can fold and still get paid. See, for instance, page 6, rule 18-19 here in what looks like an official game sheet:
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/pdfs/BGC_ult_texas.pdf
At the time I asked the supervisor, who called upstairs an confirmed I had to play. So they have a house rule, or possibly misread the official rules.
Do I have any recourse? If not, what's the increase in the house edge on the main game if I have to play some hands I wouldn't, supposing the Trips bet and Antes are equal.
I believe the official rule is you can fold and still get paid. See, for instance, page 6, rule 18-19 here in what looks like an official game sheet:
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/pdfs/BGC_ult_texas.pdf
At the time I asked the supervisor, who called upstairs an confirmed I had to play. So they have a house rule, or possibly misread the official rules.
Do I have any recourse? If not, what's the increase in the house edge on the main game if I have to play some hands I wouldn't, supposing the Trips bet and Antes are equal.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
June 9th, 2013 at 3:31:05 PM
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Quote: dwheatleyI was playing at my local casino which recently installed Ultimate Texas Holdem. They have a good Trips paytable, so I was playing that. On a couple hands, the board has a trips but I couldn't play may kickers, so I planned to fold and just collect my trips when the other players told me I had to play to get paid on my trips.
I believe the official rule is you can fold and still get paid. See, for instance, page 6, rule 18-19 here in what looks like an official game sheet:
http://ag.ca.gov/gambling/pdfs/BGC_ult_texas.pdf
At the time I asked the supervisor, who called upstairs an confirmed I had to play. So they have a house rule, or possibly misread the official rules.
Do I have any recourse? If not, what's the increase in the house edge on the main game if I have to play some hands I wouldn't, supposing the Trips bet and Antes are equal.
I've never seen a casino that didn't pay the trips on a folded hand, so it's pretty unambiguous that your house is doing it wrong. Usually, the player tucks his cards under the trips wager to indicate that the hand is folded but the trips bet pays.
Sure you have recourse. It's a patented game. Just send the casino's contact info to Roger, and let him explain the errors of their ways:-)
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
June 9th, 2013 at 3:33:21 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 9th, 2013 at 3:54:05 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesIts becoming more common for casinos to force you to make the play bet in order to get paid on trips even when you have a 100% losing hand. I had posed that question on here to Roger but never got an answer.
Did you PM him about it? He's quite the busy man; I'm not sure how often he is checking the forums. I'm pretty sure that his answer would be: "They're doing it wrong."
Next time I wanted to play there, I would consider printing out the pdf, or ask if they have a copy to look at.
June 9th, 2013 at 4:10:05 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 9th, 2013 at 5:06:20 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesNo I didn't. I just threw it out there as a curiosity. I don't now, nor will I ever make the trips bet.
Not even for the 9-7-4 paytable? That bet is <1% edge. But considering how the blind bet is formulated, the trips bet is sorta stupid out of principle.
June 9th, 2013 at 5:26:14 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 9th, 2013 at 5:46:44 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesNot even that one. Mind you, I don't play this game with a disadvantage.
Yeah, you make more in comps than lose in play and/or by hole carding and info sharing. Some of this I was thinking about when I was writing the last post...doh
June 9th, 2013 at 7:55:19 PM
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I had this problem too at casinos and it sucks. I understand 3CP has the same problem.... I also have a problem of playing too much side bets.
Next time I play UTH $1 should cover the trips bet. 3x raises did cost me a ton too when I should have ramped up to 4x at all times.
Next time I play UTH $1 should cover the trips bet. 3x raises did cost me a ton too when I should have ramped up to 4x at all times.
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
July 9th, 2013 at 3:39:54 PM
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dwheatly, were you at an Indian casino?
Indian casinos have the right to change that rule.
I have had this come up in the past and it is written in SFL's rules that Indian casinos may opt for that rule change.
Indian casinos have the right to change that rule.
I have had this come up in the past and it is written in SFL's rules that Indian casinos may opt for that rule change.
"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"
July 10th, 2013 at 12:06:49 AM
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Send me an email at rsnow@shfl.com.
July 10th, 2013 at 2:34:14 PM
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I deal the game in Columbus, and we pay the Trips even if the player folds the hand. It's rare, but it happens. I've even specifically taught a class of new dealers this exact rule, so any casino that doesn't pay the Trips on a folded hand doesn't know what it's doing.
That said, my casino requires $5 on the Trips bet.
That said, my casino requires $5 on the Trips bet.
July 10th, 2013 at 2:46:54 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 10th, 2013 at 2:50:20 PM
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This is like the great 3CP controversy where they don't pay the ante bonus if the player's hand loses (someitmes they don't pay it at all).
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
July 10th, 2013 at 3:13:17 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesThey are making more money by forcing you to make a play bet.
And thus making anyone who knows how the game should be played not want to play the table.
July 10th, 2013 at 3:26:36 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 10th, 2013 at 4:33:47 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesIf ShuffleMaster says its ok, then its ok.
If ShuffleMaster says it's OK, I'm not aware of it. I deal a ShuffleMaster table and I pay Trips bets even if the player folds.
July 10th, 2013 at 4:36:49 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 10th, 2013 at 4:49:27 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesNot saying you don't. But more and more casinos every day are requiring a play bet to get paid on the trips.
More and more casinos, it seems, are also unaware of a lot of the rules of their own games, too. My casino classifies UTH (along with TCP, Four Card, Crazy Four, Let It Ride, and MS Stud) as "novelty games" and the little twists on the rules seem to spark more debate among dealers and management than anything else. So I wonder how many of these cases of dealers requiring the Play to pay the Trips are the casino's rules and how many are simply dealer ignorance.
July 10th, 2013 at 4:54:10 PM
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My casino is not an Indian casino. I've emailed Roger about it.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
July 10th, 2013 at 4:56:57 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 10th, 2013 at 10:02:20 PM
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Today, I was told by a dealer that I must make the trips bet in order to play. After the pit corrects her, I begin play with one other person at the table. She deals our cards and we check. She then turns over the flop (QTJ), the turn and river, AND her own hole cards (AK). She immediately notifies the pit of her mistake and the pit says "it's ok, just continue the hand."(!!!) I see the dealer has the absolute nuts with a straight to the A, so I fold. The other player calls so I'm thinking he also has AK. Nope. He loses despite seeing all the cards before making his decision to call or fold. What a great customer.
But wait, there's more...
A few hands later, a gentleman sits down with a $200 matchplay coupon. The pit boss confirms that he can use the coupon on the play bet. He's wagering $50 ante/blinds and after a few hands he picks up AA. He places the $200 matchplay down on the playbet circle and waits for the flop. The dealer informs him that he must bet $200 on top of the $200 coupon because it's a matchplay coupon, not a free bet!!! Of course he does.
But wait, there's more...
A few hands later, a gentleman sits down with a $200 matchplay coupon. The pit boss confirms that he can use the coupon on the play bet. He's wagering $50 ante/blinds and after a few hands he picks up AA. He places the $200 matchplay down on the playbet circle and waits for the flop. The dealer informs him that he must bet $200 on top of the $200 coupon because it's a matchplay coupon, not a free bet!!! Of course he does.
100% risk of ruin
July 10th, 2013 at 10:22:46 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 10th, 2013 at 10:26:11 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesDid he win and get paid in full?
Indeed. Don't say I never invited :)
100% risk of ruin
July 11th, 2013 at 7:23:05 AM
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Quote: hwccdealerI deal the game in Columbus, and we pay the Trips even if the player folds the hand. It's rare, but it happens. I've even specifically taught a class of new dealers this exact rule, so any casino that doesn't pay the Trips on a folded hand doesn't know what it's doing.
(Snicker)
Are you guys back to playing without forcing the player to make the Blind Bet? I really like that variation of the game!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 11th, 2013 at 7:26:51 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 11th, 2013 at 7:44:20 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesThat was Crazy 4 poker.
That's right, not forcing the Super Bonus bet, yes? My mistake.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 11th, 2013 at 8:08:43 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 11th, 2013 at 10:28:13 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesRight but either game would be sexy without it :)
+1
In responding to this thread, I was going to compliment him for training the the dealers properly unlike whoever did Crazy4Poker. And damn if only I knew about that at the time...lol
July 11th, 2013 at 11:28:34 AM
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I talked to Roger, and Roger (and/or co.) talked to the casino. Which has (verbally) agreed to change its ways. I'll report back next time I visit.
Thanks! Fist bump to the internets.
Thanks! Fist bump to the internets.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
July 12th, 2013 at 4:36:18 PM
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Quote: Mission146(Snicker)
Are you guys back to playing without forcing the player to make the Blind Bet? I really like that variation of the game!
That was the Super Bonus in Crazy 4 (essentially the same thing as the Blind bet, a.k.a. 90% of the house edge in the game,) and that only lasted a couple of days and didn't happen on my shift. Apparently people were selling their seats on Crazy 4 because of that rule variation, and we shut the game down until they changed the regulation.
Figures; of the "carnival games" we have, Crazy 4 is the one game we don't teach new dealers, and it always seems to spark the most debate about how to deal it.
July 13th, 2013 at 5:56:39 AM
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Oh yeah, I live two hours away and I wish I had known about it.
Are you allowed to play there, I know the Wheeling Island (WV) employees cannot.
Are you allowed to play there, I know the Wheeling Island (WV) employees cannot.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
July 13th, 2013 at 4:57:21 PM
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Quote: Mission146Oh yeah, I live two hours away and I wish I had known about it.
Are you allowed to play there, I know the Wheeling Island (WV) employees cannot.
We can't play anywhere in Ohio (new law; I played at Toledo in December and it was fine. We can't play anywhere with table games.) So I made a trip to PR and played there and have a trip to Vegas scheduled soon, and if I want to play, I can always go to Belterra or someplace similar.
July 13th, 2013 at 5:16:52 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
July 13th, 2013 at 6:19:58 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesIts like telling a Walmart employee that he/she cannot shop at Kroger. Totally rediculous.
I agree, but at least the out-of-state casinos are nearly as close as the nearest in-state one.
July 14th, 2013 at 4:51:40 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesIts like telling a Walmart employee that he/she cannot shop at Kroger. Totally rediculous.
I tend to agree, and I wanted to check out the horseshoe in Cincinnati, but it's whatever. Frankly, I'm a little fed up with the casino right now, and part of me thinks I should just get a new job in another field, learn to count cards, and squeeze my money out of Penn National that way, but I'd probably still be recognized by too many dealers if I went back.
