PGP @ the Sands

Just got back from my first visit to the Sands in PA. Overall I thought it was pretty nice. The Asian table game section was bigger than I've ever seen. Multiple pits with only mini baccarat and probably 10+ tables of PGP. No banking allowed though.

I'm usually not one to share bad beat stories but I thought this one was interesting enough to post. I had been up and down all night and then with about 15 minutes left I had my original 600 buy in left on the table. I was betting 100 per hand at that point when I ran into this sequence for my last 6 hands:

#6: K high -$100
#5: Q high -$100
#4: Q high -$100
#3: two pair....3s and 2s (10 was my next highest) but I managed to push
#2: Q high - $100
At this point I was down to $200 left on the table and decided to go all in since it was time to meet up with my ride home when I get this gem:
#1: Full house, 3 8s in my 5 card and I split a pair of 6s...I was feelin pretty good about getting a win but worried about running into some bs two medium pair and winding up with a push...dealer turns over jacks full of aces -#200 for a total of -$600. Time to go home.

By the way if PGD reads this, after playing EZ PGP, having to go back to dealing with quarters and making change all night was pretty tough. We gotta get EZ Pai Gow available in more locations...

Ouch, what a series of dog hands to be dealt before the FH, ands still crunch...love it when the dealer gets Pai Gows, hate when I do.

I will say that I bet about a 5:1 ratio, main bet to the side bets, including insurance.

Quote: gts4ever

By the way if PGD reads this, after playing EZ PGP, having to go back to dealing with quarters and making change all night was pretty tough. We gotta get EZ Pai Gow available in more locations...

Thanks, Hopefully, yes. We'll soon see if we get the game into PA!

PA is still relatively player-friendly for its table game rules so doubt we will be seeing EZ pai gow there any time soon.

Quote: sodawater

PA is still relatively player-friendly for its table game rules so doubt we will be seeing EZ pai gow there any time soon.

Really? How so when:
- EZ Pai Gow has a LOWER house edge than using a commission in Pai Gow?
- Same side bets and pay tables, - for the same edge on the side bets.

The math is better for the player on the main game (2.469% for EZ Pai Gow versus 2.73 for commission-based, - and is exactly the same for the side bets.

And errors (often against the player) are reduced by eliminating the change-making.

My guess is that you're simply taking a shot. It's easy to check your math at one of the Wizard's sites, since you're right here anyway. If you want to take a shot, then you can PM me with a question, concern, or issue.

For the millionth time:

EZ PGP has a MUCH HIGHER combined house edge than real pai gow poker, because it takes away the single-best option for the player, which is to bank.

You know that. We have been over this. Give up your charade, you are fooling no one into thinking that EZ PG is somehow better for the player than real pai gow poker.

Just embrace it. It's worse for the player. It's better for the house. You chose sides.

Quote: The Wizard

The most important factor in improving your odds in Pai Gow Poker is the ratio of how much is bet when you are the banker to as a player.

EZ Pai Gow Poker, in the overwhelming majority of its installations, does not allow player-banking. Therefore it is worse for the player.


House edge for EZ Pai Gow Poker: 2.47 percent.

Combined house edge for real pai gow poker, with banking: 1.46 percent.

That's all you need to know.

Quote: sodawater

For the millionth time:

EZ PGP has a MUCH HIGHER combined house edge than real pai gow poker, because it takes away the single-best option for the player, which is to bank.

No.
You may play ONLY the main bet if you wish. In fact many do! And banking is allow if the casino allows it for the game.

Your facts are not straight - there is absolutely NO requirement at all to make ANY additional bet aside from the main bet.

You're thinking about "Pai Gow Thrill," which went out in 2009. Pai Gow Thrill's last install was at Boulder Station, and it was replaced by EZ Pai Gow because of the annoying requirement of that other game (which you are confusing here), that forced players to make additional bets when they didn't want to, and just wanted to make the main bet alone.

Check your math and your sources.

Quote: Paigowdan

No.
You may play ONLY the main bet if you wish. In fact many do!

Your facts are not straight - there is absolutely NO requirement at all to make ANY additional bet aside from the main bet.

You're thinking about "Pai Gow Thrill," which went out in 2009.


And You know this.

Huh? I said nothing about side bets. I said that EZ Pai Gow Poker takes away the player option to bank in, what, 99% of its installations?

Quote: sodawater

Quote: Paigowdan

No.
You may play ONLY the main bet if you wish. In fact many do!

Your facts are not straight - there is absolutely NO requirement at all to make ANY additional bet aside from the main bet.

You're thinking about "Pai Gow Thrill," which went out in 2009.


And You know this.

Huh? I said nothing about side bets. I said that EZ Pai Gow Poker takes away the player option to bank in, what, 99% of its installations?

There is no requirement to allow or disallow banking in EZ Pai Gow. The allowance or disallowance of player banking is a decision of the local casino DTG (Director of Table Games) to make, within the guidelines of his casino's Internal Controls.

There are EZ Pai Gow installations that allow banking, and Fortune and EC Pai Gow games that disallow it.

It is up to the LOCAL CASINO to allow or disallow banking on any of its Pai Gow games, - including EZ Pai Gow.

Now I recommend against player banking, and many casino operators eliminate banking on the game change alone.

OK, well, you would know:

1. How many installations of EZ Pai Gow are there?

2. How many installations of EZ Pai Gow allow player banking?

3. In your professional opinion, would you recommend a DTG allow or disallow player banking if he installs your game?

Quote: sodawater

OK, well, you would know:

1. How many installations of EZ Pai Gow are there?

About 100.

Quote: sodawater

2. How many installations of EZ Pai Gow allow player banking?

As many as the local Casino manager or table game director decides. I would say it is about four.

Quote: sodawater

3. In your professional opinion, would you recommend a DTG allow or disallow player banking if he installs your game?

It is his (the DTG's) choice, and he knows this, and it is his professional opinion that counts, not mine.
We say eliminating banking increases hands per hour (which it does), and reduces player-to-house conflict, arguments and contentions (as this thread gives an indication of).

And 90% of the time, the DTG says, "Banking in the pit causes nothing but problems and conflict - it goes."

As a matter of fact, only DEQ currently installs the game, and I have been involved on two installs, as a consultant on these two installations. In both cases the decision was already (and wisely) handled.

Player banked games are available in the poker room, or in CA.

Quote: Paigowdan

As many as the Casino manager decides.

Lol, you can't even give a straight answer?

Safe to say it's fewer than 5 of the 100?

So it's safe to say that if we randomly select an EZ Pai Gow Poker installation, there is a 95% chance it will have a much higher combined house edge than real pai gow poker?

Thought so.

Quote: sodawater

Lol, you can't even give a straight answer?

Safe to say it's fewer than 5 of the 100?

"Four" is a very straight answer.

Quote: sodawater

So it's safe to say that if we randomly select an EZ Pai Gow Poker installation, there is a 95% chance it will have a much higher combined house edge than real pai gow poker?

Absolutely - if you put banking into the equation, -
- but for that matter, where both a commission game and an EZ Pai Gow game are compared under the same conditions, then EZ Pai Gow is lower under exactly the same equal banking conditions. And....if you had a banking EZ Pai Gow game next to a commission-based game with no banking, EZ Pai Gow would blow it's doors off player edge-wise.

Under the SAME conditions of banking or not, EZ Pai Gow is lower. So........the issue isn't brand, it is if banking is allowed on a game by the house. (And you wanna bank, dabnammit.)

DEQ gives the option and recommendation to the casino operator, and they generally say, "Come to think of it, player banking in the casino pit IS very problematical," and when given the chance to jettison something that they find a headache and hinderance to pit operations, well, 95 times out of a hundred they move into the future with a very fine and reasonable decision.


Most houses have indeed found that having player banked games in the casino pit, - especially if player banking is mixed "mid-play" - that is, alternating between house-banked hands and player banked hands, - greatly increases dealer errors, player contention and arguments, and dissatisfaction.

I fully understand that you would like the banking option in the pit, (and I won't to a Bill Clinton here...), but many operators jump on the chance to streamline an already slow and cumbersome game to deal.

think odds of paigow are like 1 in 6...so thats pretty sick to get that many

reminds me of a time where i just play house way so i can see dealers hand first then have a sweat. dealer turns up jack high paigow with a 109 up

he turns up my hand... a jack high with a 107 up LOL, #slap in face



nothing better than already counting your money then being crushed by the sickest beat ever... i mean how can i not even push there? FML

It's probably worth pointing out that PA SANDS DOES NOT ALLOW PLAYER BANKING ON THEIR CURRENT PGP GAME.

Quote: Paigowdan

Absolutely - if you put banking into the equation, -
- but for that matter, where both a commission game and an EZ Pai Gow game are compared under the same conditions, then EZ Pai Gow is lower under exactly the same equal banking conditions. And....if you had a banking EZ Pai Gow game next to a commission-based game with no banking, EZ Pai Gow would blow it's doors off player edge-wise.

This is all true on a per hand basis, but not per unit of time. If I play for 4 hours, EZ PGP will expose me to a higher total expected loss than standard PGP does. At least to me, it's worth that tradeoff to see more hands per session (playing is more fun than watching people fumble with quarters).

Quote: rdw4potus

It's probably worth pointing out that PA SANDS DOES NOT ALLOW PLAYER BANKING ON THEIR CURRENT PGP GAME.

+1

Quote: gts4ever

Just got back from my first visit to the Sands in PA. Overall I thought it was pretty nice. The Asian table game section was bigger than I've ever seen. Multiple pits with only mini baccarat and probably 10+ tables of PGP. No banking allowed though.

I'm usually not one to share bad beat stories but I thought this one was interesting enough to post. I had been up and down all night and then with about 15 minutes left I had my original 600 buy in left on the table. I was betting 100 per hand at that point when I ran into this sequence for my last 6 hands:

#6: K high -$100
#5: Q high -$100
#4: Q high -$100
#3: two pair....3s and 2s (10 was my next highest) but I managed to push
#2: Q high - $100
At this point I was down to $200 left on the table and decided to go all in since it was time to meet up with my ride home when I get this gem:
#1: Full house, 3 8s in my 5 card and I split a pair of 6s...I was feelin pretty good about getting a win but worried about running into some bs two medium pair and winding up with a push...dealer turns over jacks full of aces -#200 for a total of -$600. Time to go home.

By the way if PGD reads this, after playing EZ PGP, having to go back to dealing with quarters and making change all night was pretty tough. We gotta get EZ Pai Gow available in more locations...

Too bad you weren't playing Emperor's Challenge PGP. You would have made a mint on the side bet for crappy hands.

ZCore13

Zcore,
EZ Pai Gow offers the exactly same side bets, always had.
So does Fortune, now with Pai Gow'd.
Side bets are no longer brand dependent among the big three.

Well then too bad that side bet was not offered and taken. It would have been a good day.

ZCore13

Quote: Paigowdan

Zcore,
EZ Pai Gow offers the exactly same side bets, always had.
So does Fortune, now with Pai Gow'd.
Side bets are no longer brand dependent among the big three.

But Pai Gow'd is based on the dealer's hand. Only the insurance bet would have helped with this string of hands.

Yup.
Side bets I often find a moving target. Bet 'em and not hit, - don't bet 'em, and watch them hit.

A number of years ago I bet $5 a round - every hand - on Lucky ladies and got nothing for an hour. The first hand I played after giving up, I get two Queen of hearts - AND the dealer called "INSURANCE !!" - and HAD it. I just about passed out. I had a bald patch from where I pulled my hair out.

Yeow!

I don't know why but side bets in general just don't appeal to me. I've hit some big hands but never regretted not having the dollar out there. In fact I think I enjoy the scorn I get from others at the table who feel they have a right to badger anyone who doesn't want to play the same way they do. The frustration they express when I get a straight flush for instance playing TCP is strangely satisfying. It's not that I won't play something just because it's not the lowest HE bet available. I bet the hardways while playing craps despite their steep price because I enjoy it. Maybe I'll feel differently if I hit a monster and miss out on a large progressive payout, who knows.

I (semi-shamefully) admit I play side bets.

First of all, I've had some huge sessions collecting on side bets when the cards were - for lack of a better description - out of balance and away from the "normal center." In Pai Gow poker, once in a while I have a session where every hand seems to be either a Full House or a 10-high Pai Gow, not unlike your recent experience, gts.

Secondly, when I get the Monster Hand - a 9-high, a Royal, Five Aces, etc., I would be ruined for life if I were not on the bonus. Ever since that Lucky Ladies incident, a part of me says "you gotta keep those side bets covered....." I know it's not rational, but hey, I justify it as fun, and a shot at the big one.

However, I have never, and would never, give anyone grief for not playing them. See it all the time, it's live and let live, ESPECIALLY at the tables.

Quote: gts4ever

I don't know why but side bets in general just don't appeal to me.

Don't feel bad. I'm (oddly) proud to say I've never played a side bet ever.

I think it has to do with goals. When I play, I play to drink free beer and eek out a small win, maybe $20-$50 on a $100 buy. I don't play for a life changer, hence no reason to go for that progressive on CSP or whatever.

Some people might get off on the chance to win a quarter mil for a dollar or hit a $5k Super Sevens playing $5 BJ. I'm just not one of them. Maybe you're not either.

Face, is it true the NHL Hall Of Fame is located in Toronto so the Maple Leafs fans get a chance to see the Stanley Cup?

I mean 1967 was a long time ago. I was 27 then, but most Maple Leaf fans were still a gleam in their Dad's eye !