Three Card Poker Progressive Jackpot Question
"The return depends on the jackpot amount and number of other players. To be specific, it is 47.87%, plus 4.52% for each $1000 in the jackpot, and 0.79% per number of other players. To break even the meter needs to be $11,520, less $175 for each other player."
Let's say that the jackpot is above the breakeven point. Does playing two hands increase the chance of hitting mini-royal in spades more than playing a single hand twice?
I have a follow-up question. Who is right?
Dealer 1: Lets me play the bonus if I make a bet on ante and/or pairplus
Dealer 2: Lets me play the bonus if I make a bet on pairplus (of course, I can still play ante also). Basically, this dealer said I have to play pairplus to play the bonus up top.
Who's right?
I was play the ante only and the bonus to hit the jackpot. New dealer came in and told me I had to play the pairplus to play the bonus.
Quote: debitncreditThanks!
I have a follow-up question. Who is right?
Dealer 1: Lets me play the bonus if I make a bet on ante and/or pairplus
Dealer 2: Lets me play the bonus if I make a bet on pairplus (of course, I can still play ante also). Basically, this dealer said I have to play pairplus to play the bonus up top.
Who's right?
I was play the ante only and the bonus to hit the jackpot. New dealer came in and told me I had to play the pairplus to play the bonus.
I deal TCP at my casino and we have no rule that says you have to play the Pair Plus to bet the progressive. If dealers are giving wildly different rules, that casino's doing something wrong.
Quote: rdw4potusI've never seen it where the pair plus was a mandatory bet to play the progressive bonus. But, if it is, it's better to play only the pair plus and bonus, without playing the ante.
Isnt the better play the Ante play and not the pair plus...House edge is smaller on Ante correct? Also my casino (Menom in WI) allows us to play the Ante only and if we play two hands of ANte only then we must double the table min which is $3 on weekdays
Quote: billybabeIsnt the better play the Ante play and not the pair plus...House edge is smaller on Ante correct? Also my casino (Menom in WI) allows us to play the Ante only and if we play two hands of ANte only then we must double the table min which is $3 on weekdays
Generally yes, playing only the Ante is better. If your casino offers 1-4-6-30-40 (2.32% house edge) for Pair Plus, then Pair Plus is better. Most casinos only offer 1-3-6-30-40 (7.28% house edge).
Quote: billybabeIsnt the better play the Ante play and not the pair plus...House edge is smaller on Ante correct? Also my casino (Menom in WI) allows us to play the Ante only and if we play two hands of ANte only then we must double the table min which is $3 on weekdays
Usually the ante is a lower house edge than the PP, but if they are using the original PP paytable (incredibly rare these days), the house edge is actually lower on the PP.
But I think what RDW was getting at is if they are going to require you to play the Pair Plus to play the bonus, then don't bother playing the Ante at all if your intention is to chase the jackpot. PP and Ante are both -EV bets, so if they make you play the PP and you get to play the bonus, don't bother with the Ante.
Quote: AcesAndEights
But I think what RDW was getting at is if they are going to require you to play the Pair Plus to play the bonus, then don't bother playing the Ante at all if your intention is to chase the jackpot. PP and Ante are both -EV bets, so if they make you play the PP and you get to play the bonus, don't bother with the Ante.
Exactly! You want to risk the smallest total amount of money possible on each hand while you're chasing the progressive. So if they say you have to play the pair plus, then you should make that bet and not the ante bet.
Quote: debitncredit"The return depends on the jackpot amount and number of other players. To be specific, it is 47.87%, plus 4.52% for each $1000 in the jackpot, and 0.79% per number of other players. To break even the meter needs to be $11,520, less $175 for each other player."
The OP referred to the progressive analysis on the WoO page, which is for a 90/100/500/JP pay schedule. Most of the progressive schedules I see today are 6/60/70/500/JP. Is anyone aware of where I can find an analysis on that pay schedule?
Quote: FunkyDoctorThe OP referred to the progressive analysis on the WoO page, which is for a 90/100/500/JP pay schedule. Most of the progressive schedules I see today are 6/60/70/500/JP. Is anyone aware of where I can find an analysis on that pay schedule?
Here's an analysis that I did of the sidebets available at Canterbury Park in MN. it includes the 6/60/70/500 paytable on 3CP. I can't promise it isn't error free...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlRSxZ2plqHPdG9QbTNCTHBybm5wWE9HWEhyWmU4UXc&usp=sharing
Quote: FunkyDoctorThe OP referred to the progressive analysis on the WoO page, which is for a 90/100/500/JP pay schedule. Most of the progressive schedules I see today are 6/60/70/500/JP. Is anyone aware of where I can find an analysis on that pay schedule?
It's a slightly better paytable. Change the base payout from 47.87% to 54.39%.
So if the envy payouts are the same, the return would be:
54.39% + Jackpot*4.52%/1000 + Number of other players*0.79%
The breakeven meter would be $10,091 with no envy bonuses.
Suppose I bet a $10 ante and match the bet with Q-6-4 and better, how do I use the HE and EoR numbers to determine my expected loss per hand?
So, betting $10 on the ante means you are expected to lose (0.0337)*$10 = $0.337 per hand.
Quote: tringlomaneHouse edge is the percentage the house wins with respect to the ante bet in this game and other casino poker games like Ultimate Texas Holdem.
So, betting $10 on the ante means you are expected to lose (0.0337)*$10 = $0.337 per hand.
Here is where I am struggling with this calculation...
I would agree with your response in regards to the ante bet. But if I decide to play my hand, I now have another $10 in action. And that $10 is only committed in situations where I have cards that will result in positive gain on average. This is where EoR comes into play. Of course, I will not win all the hands when I commit the additional bet - I will still lose some percentage of the time with the bigger bet.
So again, I am trying to put all of this together to determine an average dollar loss per hand for playing this game taking into account both the ante and raise/play bets. It seems to me that the $0.337 loss per hand answer is over simplified and incorrect, but I definitely could be wrong on this.
Please clarify so I can get this straight in my head...thanks.
Quote: FunkyDoctor
It seems to me that the $0.337 loss per hand answer is over simplified and incorrect, but I definitely could be wrong on this.
Please clarify so I can get this straight in my head...thanks.
It does seem over simplified because the house edge calculation of 3.37% lumped all of the game's outcomes, including making play bets and winning ante bonuses, and measured it directly to the ante bet size since "house edge" is traditionally defined as total amount lost divided by the initial wager (or in 3CP: the "ante" wager).
The "element of risk", on the other hand, is the total amount lost divided by the average total wager. This allows a fairer comparison for games with different multiple betting steps, but determining the "average wager" can be somewhat difficult. And you will need the average wager to calculate the amount lost per hand with the "element of risk".
For example, when making the play bet with Q64 or better:
You have $20 at risk when the player makes the play bet.
Player makes play bet with Q64 or better: 14,900/22,100 = 0.674208
Probability of making ante bet only: 1 - 0.6742 = 0.325792
Average Total Wager:
(0.325792)*$10 + (0.674208)*$20 = $16.74208
Element of Risk for 3CP: 2.01%
Expected loss: (0.0201)*($16.74208) = $0.337 per hand.
Quote: tringlomaneIt does seem over simplified because the house edge calculation of 3.37% lumped all of the game's outcomes, including making play bets and winning ante bonuses, and measured it directly to the ante bet size since "house edge" is traditionally defined as total amount lost divided by the initial wager (or in 3CP: the "ante" wager).
The "element of risk", on the other hand, is the total amount lost divided by the average total wager. This allows a fairer comparison for games with different multiple betting steps, but determining the "average wager" can be somewhat difficult. And you will need the average wager to calculate the amount lost per hand with the "element of risk".
For example, when making the play bet with Q64 or better:
You have $20 at risk when the player makes the play bet.
Player makes play bet with Q64 or better: 14,900/22,100 = 0.674208
Probability of making ante bet only: 1 - 0.6742 = 0.325792
Average Total Wager:
(0.325792)*$10 + (0.674208)*$20 = $16.74208
Element of Risk for 3CP: 2.01%
Expected loss: (0.0201)*($16.74208) = $0.337 per hand.
You just said it better than me!
Honestly I like the House Edge over Element of Risk because I like to know what my expected loss is for a specific bet. And the House Edge is the easiest way to do that, because it is applied to your initial bet amount. So my $10 TCP ante has an expected loss of about 33 cents, got it. Sure sometimes I put more money on the table, but every hand starts out with an expected loss of 33 cents.
This is similar reasoning behind why I like the "per decision" numbers on craps rather than "per roll." If I put down $5 on the hard 8, I get really confused when you start talking about per-roll, per-decision, etc. I just want to know the expected loss on that $5. It's about 45 cents.
Quote: tringlomaneIt does seem over simplified because the house edge calculation of 3.37% lumped all of the game's outcomes, including making play bets and winning ante bonuses, and measured it directly to the ante bet size since "house edge" is traditionally defined as total amount lost divided by the initial wager (or in 3CP: the "ante" wager).
The "element of risk", on the other hand, is the total amount lost divided by the average total wager. This allows a fairer comparison for games with different multiple betting steps, but determining the "average wager" can be somewhat difficult. And you will need the average wager to calculate the amount lost per hand with the "element of risk".
For example, when making the play bet with Q64 or better:
You have $20 at risk when the player makes the play bet.
Player makes play bet with Q64 or better: 14,900/22,100 = 0.674208
Probability of making ante bet only: 1 - 0.6742 = 0.325792
Average Total Wager:
(0.325792)*$10 + (0.674208)*$20 = $16.74208
Element of Risk for 3CP: 2.01%
Expected loss: (0.0201)*($16.74208) = $0.337 per hand.
Got it...thanks. That cleared it up in my head.
