Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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May 9th, 2013 at 12:25:50 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I had the priveledge of attending a very short seminar by Elliot at G2E. Any time I have the opportunity I will always listen to what he has to say.

Dan, I hope you take your point #16 as seriously as all the other ones. I think you are a hard worker and I wish you the best of luck in your job, but you really do need to open your mind a little bit and change your perspective on what you call scamming. You are on the extreme end of the spectrum on this and need to slide the other way a little.

ZCore13



Thanks, Zcore13, appreciate it!
I do take it all seriously, and maintain my openness here on my views - in light of some opposition and in our gamblers' group area - about what I think of the whole cat-and-mouse game AP side show as not being a positive thing.

My personal views were absolutely irrelevant to my patient, quiet and professional handling of sticky pit situations or business meetings, and anyone who has honestly met me or had seen me at work knows that I can have these views with a whisper, and still be viewed as 100% right by some, even many, and 0% right by others - even many.

I do not want to regret in any way being open about myself or my views with the good people here, especially to my fellow gamblers and industry workers. The situation is kind of like discovering the smart, cool, serene type of regular guy that Ahigh is in real life from, what I've seen of him in person. Some people will say "What!! you mean Ahigh DIDN'T have snakes crawling out from a hole in his neck? I cannot believe it, and I cannot fathom that" - (even though I have never honestly ever met in person - they'd say!) Some believe what they do of me, and may assume and retain certain beliefs of me without every meeting me or speaking with me. All "what can ya do" kind of thing. I can tell you that pit life, dealing, and casino security CAN change a person's outlooks and views of humanity, and it had with me for the better, I feel. Less Rose-colored is more natural colored, I feel.

As for being on "the extreme end of the spectrum," I have never noticed such thing as being any sort of an outlier in my business life, either in the pit or in the office, and one would be very hard pressed to provide any such incident. This is in spite of the fact that I happen think that an AP career is essentially no career or pastime to have in a life, - just my opinion. If we disagree, is does not mean that I - or you - need to "open your mind up," - as saying: "YOU need to open your mind up" is simply saying: "You are wrong because we disagree" instead of just "We CAN disagree and see things differently."

And trust me, many the in the gaming industry actually think card counting and hole-carding are less than positive and ethical things to do, - and that a casino operation actually has a right to protect its income, that a manufacturer has to supply solid and defensible products, and it would even be irresponsible if we were in any way lax or cavalier or careless about game protection. Yeah, a ton of people out there are trying to exploit us and the games and they are not held "in highest regard" all the time. I also feel this is typical position, and not an extreme position, there were a LOT of people at the seminar who saw it this way, and I was NOT alone: it was all about proper games protection, that it should be implemented which we feel is reasonable, and yeah, what some people are up to is no good at times.

And, yes, many other fine casino people have a differing view, a more lax view, and that's okay, too. I agree with what I said above, and I stand by #16 comment above.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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May 9th, 2013 at 12:51:49 PM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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May 9th, 2013 at 12:53:32 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Neither is ripping people off by paying less than true odds. YOU pay your bills and employees, I'm not.



If that is the case, then any bill, commission, fee, or known mechanism of income for a business can be considered a rip off. I remember when movies were $3.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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May 9th, 2013 at 12:54:06 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Thanks, Zcore13, appreciate it!
I do take it all seriously, and maintain my openness here on my views - in light of some opposition and in our gamblers' group area - about what I think of the whole cat-and-mouse game AP side show as not being a positive thing.

My personal views were absolutely irrelevant to my patient, quiet and professional handling of sticky pit situations or business meetings, and anyone who has honestly met me or had seen me at work knows that I can have these views with a whisper, and still be viewed as 100% right by some, even many, and 0% right by others - even many.

I do not want to regret in any way being open about myself or my views with the good people here, especially to my fellow gamblers and industry workers. The situation is kind of like discovering the smart, cool, serene type of regular guy that Ahigh is in real life from, what I've seen of him in person. Some people will say "What!! you mean Ahigh DIDN'T have snakes crawling out from a hole in his neck? I cannot believe it, and I cannot fathom that" - (even though I have never honestly ever met in person - they'd say!) Some believe what they do of me, and may assume and retain certain beliefs of me without every meeting me or speaking with me. All "what can ya do" kind of thing. I can tell you that pit life, dealing, and casino security CAN change a person's outlooks and views of humanity, and I had with me for the better, I feel. Less Rose-colored is more natural colored, I feel.

As for being on "the extreme end of the spectrum," I have never noticed such thing as being any sort of an outlier in my business life, either in the pit or in the office, and one would be very hard pressed to provide any such incident. This is in spite of the fact that I happen think that an AP career is essentially no career or pastime to have in a life, - just my opinion. If we disagree, is does not mean that I - or you - need to "open your mind up," - as saying: "YOU need to open your mind up" is simply saying: "You are wrong because we disagree" instead of just "We CAN disagree and see things differently." I don't say "so and so needs to open his mind up." I say "This is how I see it, and WHY."

And trust me, many the in the gaming industry actually think card counting and hole-carding are less than positive and ethical things to do, - and that a casino operation actually has a right to protect its capital, that a manufacturer has to supply solid and defensible products, and it would even be irresponsible if we were in any way lax or cavalier or careless about game protection, and that yeah, a ton of people out there are trying to exploit us and the games and they are not held "in highest regard" all the time. I also feel this is typical position, and not an extreme position, there were a LOT of people at the seminar who saw it this way, and I was NOT alone: it was all about proper games protection, that it should be implemented which we feel is reasonable, and yeah, what some people are up to is no good at times.

And, yes, many other fine casino people have a differing view, a more lax view, and that's okay, too. I agree with what I said above, and I stand by #16 comment above.



I'm not trying to say you are wrong because we disagree. A stance on something can be adjusted based on more/less information, expert opinion, first hand experiences, etc. I, just like you I'm sure, learn constantly.

I'm just saying I would hope you would be open to adjusting your stance a little. I think an example of this may have been your experience when playing Blackjack a few weeks ago and the "andantagous" betting you took advantage of. That was a first hand experience that I believe opened your eyes just a little.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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May 9th, 2013 at 1:08:30 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I'm not trying to say you are wrong because we disagree. A stance on something can be adjusted based on more/less information, expert opinion, first hand experiences, etc. I, just like you I'm sure, learn constantly.

I'm just saying I would hope you would be open to adjusting your stance a little. I think an example of this may have been your experience when playing Blackjack a few weeks ago and the "andantagous" betting you took advantage of. That was a first hand experience that I believe opened your eyes just a little.

ZCore13


In person, I have a very polite or cordial stance.
In my heart, this kind of AP behavior is "not the way to go or act," - but I don't want to feel that I must mislead, patronize, or be dishonest with anyone here. I think that would be the worst I can do to fellow my board members.

I know that when you learn it, you cannot unlearn it.
I don't believe that a thing is either good or bad for being an eye opener.
Some people say that their first romance opened their eyes; [...devine]
Others may say that their first hit of coke opened their eyes. [...evil]

Both eye openers. And no doubt there is a rush to a good AP session. In this regard, I sometimes suspect a "compulsion" in some to specifically seek and do AP.

Now, I see 100% recreational gambling in a casino as very fine, and with using good strategy. But when the "game" becomes "seeing what shxx I can exploit and get away against this 'enemy' casino" - using something other than strategy, really now, and as a primary occupation, a goal, a compulsion, - this is not gambling. My eyes have seen this.

So, I say that the fact something opened your eyes does not make it good or bad. So - If I ever said, "sheesh, counting is just as easy from the player's side...." I am not saying that it is good; actually, I'm saying it might impose a risk, and certainly to a business.

I am learning, and seeking to learn constantly. I do change views, I do soften up, and I do harden up in other areas. [Sheesh, I was almost tempted to use the word "organic" here....]

We are all always changing and growing and we go along in our business.
But on breaching the HE via certain mechanisms, this has remained steady with me in business. If you feel I am not growing, that is all right. But I feel gambling needs to become more like dice play, where it is harder to AP, count, hole-card, and so become more restored to the base game of gambling, and to a precision house edge that cannot be altered, must be there, - and which actually HAS to be there for it all to happen.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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May 9th, 2013 at 1:09:46 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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May 9th, 2013 at 1:11:25 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

And most of us humans try to avoid such things. If we can't, so be it. If we can, we sure aren't "scammers."


Of course not.
But not from the proprietor's POV.....not that his position is valid, - he's just offering the goods and services, and dab nammit, he should do it for free for us!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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May 9th, 2013 at 1:27:44 PM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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May 9th, 2013 at 1:36:18 PM permalink
But there is a business view on the gambling operations we hold dear, and I always keep that in mind. One can argue "what would a casino be like in heaven?" A 50% player's edge? Win by snapping your fingers? What is reasonable? It is what the market can bear under strict regulation, and it is with a house edge, and it is now with game protection issues being addressed.

The fact that there was an Advanced Advantage Play seminar for casino execs instead of AP players is an "about time" kind of thing in my book.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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May 9th, 2013 at 1:40:58 PM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

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