UTH Bad Beat Bet

Hello all, not sure if this has been discussed before (couldn't find any info on the site) but there is a new bet I recently have seen and been playing on UTH at Lake Elsinore Casino here in Southern Cali. The bet is a bad beat bonus that is placed just above the trips bet on the normal UTH layout. Basically the rule states if you beat the dealer or the dealer beats you and the losing party has at least trips it pays out. The pay table is as follows: Trips beat 9-1, Straight 20-1, Flush 25-1, Full House 40-1, Four of a Kind 500-1, Straight flush 10,000-1. This bet pays most often when there are 3 of a kind on board, or 4 to a flush, etc. I have been playing the game at Elsinore a lot lately due to the Proposition paying all the per hand fee drops and the lax rules. Basically if you are playing at a full table you can take advantage of info, the house doesn't care if everyone turns their cards face up and plays.

Last night I played through the night with $5 on Bad beat, $10 on trips, $15 ante and Blind and using the basic strategy discussed on Wizardofodds and discount gambling. I was able to save some money using others' hands as info. Finally at 6:00am, 4 7's were put on board with a 9. I only had 6-3 so I played the board and needed the dealer to have over the 9 to hit the 500-1 payout, his first card was a 3... second card K!!!! Boom $2500 on the bad beat hand and $300 on the trips. Tipped $100 took my $2700 of winnings and was home by 6:30am. What a hit after a long grind overnight. I know I was playing a neg expectation bet all night but wow was it sweet when it hit. If anyone has any info on this bet and the odds associated with it let me know. I plan on playing some more UTH there this weekend so I can take advantage of a full table worth of hand info.

The "Bad Beat" side bet concept for table games is a big area for Shufflemaster. They have bad beat options for many table game types, and are developing it or are actively offering it on many game types to expand/maintain the dominance.

Stephen How of discount gambling discussed bad beat on UTH last June. A good reference here for your request. The bet hits once in every 25 hands on average, with a 14% house edge on it. While many will disagree with me (and legions here absolutely will indeed), a higher HE for the higher payout "windfall" side bets aren't out of line.

It fits some games better than others (our own MathExtremist has a version for Blackjack), with UTH poker being a decent fit, but adding a fourth or fifth bet on games like Three Card pushes the limt, IMO.
While I am a sucker for side bets, and do defend them, the number of betting spots for many card games has a real "player's tolerance limit" to them. UTH has four bets in basic mode: Trips, Ante, Blind, and play, generally plenty as is.

Edit:

Quote: Knuckleball3

Basically if you are playing at a full table you can take advantage of info, the house doesn't care if everyone turns their cards face up and plays.

Disagree, you can't past post on this bet, it is a "bet it and forget it and hope you get it" type bet, made before the cards are dealt. Stephen How would have been all over any sort of AP aspect of a bet or game he discusses.

Stephen How from discount gambling analyzed the 2 way bad beat under the original paytable: 9/20/30/50/500/7500

The house edge with that paytable is 14.79%.

http://discountgambling.net/2012/06/08/bad-beat-bonus-ultimate-texas-holdem/

The paytable that you are playing is even worse:

Using the same hand probabilities in Stephen's link, the paytable at Lake Elsinore yields a 20.39% house edge.

Nice hit though!

And here is Stephen's collusion page for UTH if they don't care if you info share. It helps shave the house edge a little bit, but it's still an -EV game.

http://discountgambling.net/2010/01/15/practical-collusion-for-ultimate-texas-holdem/

Yeowwwwwtch!

That House Edge hurts worse than just about any slot machine, and perhaps even some live Keno games!

I am glad you had that nice hit, though, Knuckleball3! Congratulations on the huge win!

Quote: Paigowdan

Disagree, you can't past post on this bet, it is a "bet it and forget it and hope you get it" type bet, made before the cards are dealt. Stephen How would have been all over any sort of AP aspect of a bet or game he discusses.

Didn't mean I could use that info for the bad beat bet, just for the 4x play.

I can be a sucker for these bets too for the high payout but after seeing that this pay table has an HE of 20.39% I will definitely be staying away from it.

nice hit.

better off not playing that game unless its just for fun. the house always has the edge, especially on bonus bets.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I just had one of these type hands.

Me: 7,7

Flop: 10,10,10
Turn/River: 10,7

Dealer: 9,6 offsuit

That sucks, I hate when that happens. Quads+9 beating Quads+7.

However, If on UTH, I'll be on the trips bet at least. The thing about the trips bet is that it makes the bad beat somewhat unnecessary, IMO. It's the freak hand that loses that kills me.

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I'll tell the opposite of a bad beat in UTH - Wife and I were playing at Golden Gate Saturday night. My wife and I get in with faces and flop is 333 turn 4, river 3. We have 3333/face card, dealer reveals 22. They got crushed by the river after flopping a boat and had to payout 10-1 plus play/ante. I'll have to remember that hand next time it happens the other way.

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Quote: Pokeraddict

I'll tell the opposite of a bad beat in UTH - Wife and I were playing at Golden Gate Saturday night. My wife and I get in with faces and flop is 333 turn 4, river 3. We have 3333/face card, dealer reveals 22. They got crushed by the river after flopping a boat and had to payout 10-1 plus play/ante. I'll have to remember that hand next time it happens the other way.

BTW, what is the worst kicker you call here considering you get 10-1 if you outkick the dealer.

Quote: Pokeraddict

BTW, what is the worst kicker you call here considering you get 10-1 if you outkick the dealer.

With 3333 you need a 7 or higher in your hand,if you are playing the board you need a 10 or higher. This changes depending on what 4of a kind is on the board.

In the tribal casinos, Northern CA, everyone plays this side bet, because a quads on the board pays 500 to 1 (if two way). What's good about this side bet? The table limit is $1 to $50. You can bet $1, $2 or $3 and so on. With the low wager, 14% house edge is not bad at all. Are there any other bets in casinos that cost $1 and with an edge of only 14%?

Quote: UCivan

In the tribal casinos, Northern CA, everyone plays this side bet, because a quads on the board pays 500 to 1 (if two way). What's good about this side bet? The table limit is $1 to $50. You can bet $1, $2 or $3 and so on. With the low wager, 14% house edge is not bad at all. Are there any other bets in casinos that cost $1 and with an edge of only 14%?

Virtually any slot machine, video keno game, video poker game, middle bet in Craps, most Progressive Bonus Side Bets on table games, occasionally depending on where the meter is at...

Other than that, I don't know of any.

Most fun UTH hand so far was last month on the Epic. 3 players, all playing 2 hands (2nd hand blind 1x table minimum). All check. Dealer flops KQJ hearts; all check. turn/river 10H and 10D. All play. Dealer reveals 2 of hearts, another card in his hand. Everybody's all tense w/ 3 blind hands and 4 to the royal/SF on the board, already hyped because each of us knows we have at least 1 flush. Dealer reveals 1 heart in EACH of 6 hands, all flush winners (bigger than dealer's 2), NOBODY has the A or 9! It was an insanely low-occurence deal and extreme adrenalin rush.

Just thought I'd share it; doubt I'll ever see it again.

Quote: tringlomane

Stephen How from discount gambling analyzed the 2 way bad beat under the original paytable: 9/20/30/50/500/7500

The house edge with that paytable is 14.79%.

http://discountgambling.net/2012/06/08/bad-beat-bonus-ultimate-texas-holdem/

The paytable that you are playing is even worse:

Using the same hand probabilities in Stephen's link, the paytable at Lake Elsinore yields a 20.39% house edge.

Nice hit though!

And here is Stephen's collusion page for UTH if they don't care if you info share. It helps shave the house edge a little bit, but it's still an -EV game.

http://discountgambling.net/2010/01/15/practical-collusion-for-ultimate-texas-holdem/

I read this page and asked a question, but I know he isn't as active lately...does anyone know how this 2WBB calculation is made? Is it just simmed starting with a player hand, then enumeration of all combinations of boards * all combinations of dealer hands?