MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
Joined: May 1, 2012
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March 29th, 2013 at 1:18:29 AM permalink
I've got to get behind PaigowDan here, he's right.

No, 5% commission isn't that hard, and forcing the players to get $5 increments makes it even easier, but sitting at home and thinking about paying with a 5% commission is a hell of a lot different than doing it on a live game. Even a player that tosses out the right amount to make paying it easier doesn't really make it easier because the dealer still has to do the math to make sure it's right, so it doesn't really save time or help at all.

The thing I think you're (sodawater) missing is shot takers. Probably less than 1 in 100 players are shot takers but you have to look at everyone as if they are, because as a dealer your job depends on it, and even non-shot takers make mistakes so you really do have to watch everyone closely.

Anything that makes a game go faster with less mistakes and a lower house edge, but a larger hold is going to be win-win.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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March 29th, 2013 at 2:03:30 AM permalink
Thank you, MonkeyMonkey, really.

Making it all "quicker, easier, faster" and seemingly fairer to the player, especially if it IS INDEED fairer to the player,
Is something that a new game quietly needs....

- more action,
- more sales,
- more rave reviews -
- and better gambling for us all - in the end.

I'm in this business, and I when say "I'm trying to offer a better game, a better idea, a better way" - not only to the masses, but to the so-called "sharp" gamblers here at this board, I then get shot down by the people here, and by a few at work (except for two men, and one salesman).

Sometimes the only people who seem to KNOW what a good new game is are the gamblers themselves. Not the arguers here. Not the guys at work. So getting a new game out to them, and without notice at this board, and without fanfare at work, - might be the way to go.....

I've been through a thousand meetings of interminable length, and a thousands "no's" is stopping me and us all, from getting the next hit game out, because a "NO" was asked for somewhere along the line. (The nay-sayers at this board don't have a thing on casino executives in stopping gaming progress...)

Here is my Gaming Industry fantasy:

I am almost tempted to say to my boss - "You know - there were actually NO good new games submitted this week, boss, - just like every other week (almost)"

and signing the game up myself - for the company - at a standard 80/20 corporate split, with a field trial approval form also signed from a local Las Vegas Casino,

and putting in a Purchase order or check request for $2,000 for a new office computer (while it really was for Nevada gaming approval expenses), and with a table layout felt from GPI or GEMACO,

and going to Sunset Station or the Orleans Casino to train dealers on this new game,

and getting the game go live, and as a hit game.......................

THEN informing my gaming company,

"The next Three Card Poker just went live - and we signed it up. Without a commitee that killed it. It took 15 business days to get it done, to boot, just a couple of thousand dollars for the layout and approval. " Nobody would know about it, not here, not at work, no fuss, no muss,

it would just get done.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MonkeyMonkey
MonkeyMonkey
Joined: May 1, 2012
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March 29th, 2013 at 3:08:33 AM permalink
I think the opinions on these matters would be a lot more informed if they were in the industry. I know what you're saying is spot on because I deal 40 hours a week and I have semi-regular conversations with our DTG (he's an accessible and friendly guy).

I also know this is an industry that is very resistant to change, so your game must be amazing to even get their attention, let alone the green light.

And FWIW, I hear our house is supposed to be getting EZ Paigow at some point in the future and I'm looking forward to dealing it, I just hope the house way doesn't change too much. :)
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
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March 29th, 2013 at 3:41:27 AM permalink
I've seen EZ Pai Gow at Fallsview here in the Falls and at CZR Windsor and they are doing very well. The dealers like it because they don't need to calculate commission, but the game slows down because of the four bets available to the player (Fortune, Q-High, Pai Gow) and the payouts on those. Fortune Pai Gow only has the one additional side bet.

Players like the game because they generally see more hands per hour and they don't pay commission on wins. Plus the meter with the hands played since an envy payout or the Q-high is downright cool (yet meaningless).

For those who like to play due to the lower HA, they only experience 1.46% when they are playing head to head with the banker with no other players. And you must play the hand before you bank. So yeah, you could decide to sit out every hand until the hand before you bank, then play, then bank. A decent strategy if you have money might be to play the minimum until the hand before you bank, then play your normal amount, then bank, then go back to the minimum to come to something close to 1.46%.

But for 90% of players, that doesn't matter. They don't bank, and they'd rather play every hand with the same amount of risk. That's why EZ is (not will be, as it was a year ago) successful.

And I've been saved by a Q-H lob by the dealer a couple of times because I've had lower hands, so you can't say it's a "100% commission" with the Q-H.

For the other 10% of players, they will continue to seek out and play Pai Gow for the opportunity to bank and lower the house edge as a result.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
boymimbo
boymimbo
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March 29th, 2013 at 3:41:34 AM permalink
<Duplicate>
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
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March 29th, 2013 at 7:17:56 AM permalink
Good lord! I checked this thread at midnight EDT & went to sleep. Got to the office this morning, and there's 2 pages of posts from the middle of the night!

There is a real difference between AC (and CT) and Vegas rules and attitudes in PGP. On the east coast, the player really can bank on alternating hands in the way that Sodawater described. Most other players understand and expect this decision. It's just customary. I don't think Dan has played much in this environment. In Vegas, players are allowed to bank, but only after the banker button has been passed to every other player in turn (sometimes with a return to the dealer between players). Banking is less common, and less advantageous, as a result. Perhaps Sodawater has limited exposure to this environment?

Removing the player banking option in PGP is like switching from S17 to H17 or from 3:2 to 6:5 in BJ, or switching from 6-4 to 6-3 PP in 3CP, or single-0 to double-0 in Roulette. Of course the operator has that right. But to suggest that these changes only affect one player, or that only one player cares about the change, or even that the change is somehow better for players is going to be a tough sell here.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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March 29th, 2013 at 7:48:38 AM permalink
Quote: MonkeyMonkey

I think the opinions on these matters would be a lot more informed if they were in the industry. I know what you're saying is spot on because I deal 40 hours a week and I have semi-regular conversations with our DTG (he's an accessible and friendly guy).

I also know this is an industry that is very resistant to change, so your game must be amazing to even get their attention, let alone the green light.


I tell you, it can take years - IF it were to ever happen for some games.

Quote: MonkeyMonkey

And FWIW, I hear our house is supposed to be getting EZ Paigow at some point in the future and I'm looking forward to dealing it, I just hope the house way doesn't change too much. :)


The house way is not affected, - any house way can be used with EZ Pai Gow.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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March 29th, 2013 at 7:58:01 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


The house way is not effected, - any house way can be used with EZ Pai Gow.



Do you happen to have any data on the ways that the house way has actually been affected as a result of these installs? Several of the EZ PGP tables I've been on have had a little LCD screen so the dealer can "cheat" and look at how their hands should be set. I know that's not EZ PGP's "fault" - any new table would likely have this feature - but it does lend itself to a stronger possible house way since memorization is less important. Have any houses gone that route when installing EZ PGP?
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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March 29th, 2013 at 8:17:12 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

Good lord! I checked this thread at midnight EDT & went to sleep. Got to the office this morning, and there's 2 pages of posts from the middle of the night!

There is a real difference between AC (and CT) and Vegas rules and attitudes in PGP. On the east coast, the player really can bank on alternating hands in the way that Sodawater described. Most other players understand and expect this decision. It's just customary. I don't think Dan has played much in this environment.


Actually, I have.

Quote: rdw4potus

In Vegas, players are allowed to bank, but only after the banker button has been passed to every other player in turn (sometimes with a return to the dealer between players). Banking is less common, and less advantageous, as a result. Perhaps Sodawater has limited exposure to this environment?


I don't know exactly how much exposure sodawater has had to the gaming industry, but my experienced guess it is very little. Player Banking isn't just reading on an Internet site "....1.46." I've dealt years of Pai Gow Poker, player banked and house-banked, and it's about procedures, hands per hour, hand copies, and a million and one other factors that have been re-evaluated in ways stemming from impact in the casino pit, reviews of games' performances, and re-designs of games and Internal controls to determine its continued validity - or invalidity.

Player banking was added to Pai Gow poker as it was brought from the back room card rooms to the casino pit, and as part of the process, player banking was added as a transition for the game to the pit, almost as an after thought, and with less thought then as to how it might impact - (or disrupt is a better word) the game in the casino pit.

The game, as well as internal reviews of procedures for the game, have determined that player banking was a legacy convention or "vestige" of the game's ancient transition process from the card room to the casino pit. Player banking is now know as a hinderance to the modern game, in terms of ease of dealing, hands per hour, house edge, game protection, additional training, surveillance, and a host of other negative factors.

Quote: rdw4potus

Removing the player banking option in PGP is like switching from S17 to H17 or from 3:2 to 6:5 in BJ, or switching from 6-4 to 6-3 PP in 3CP, or single-0 to double-0 in Roulette.


Not exactly. There are countless other factors (aside from "copies and house edge" that the players POV only seem to focus on) that casino operations must consider - as to banking's continuing viability and value in the pit.

Quote: sodawater

Of course the operator has that right. But to suggest that these changes only affect one player, or that only one player cares about the change, or even that the change is somehow better for players is going to be a tough sell here.


I know it doesn't affect one player, but rather, how it affects "other players" and "all players" - as well as pit operations itself, and it has been reviewed and examined. Any vestige of player banking mixed onto any modern house-banked casino games within the pit is in the process of being discontinued and eliminated; in return, poker rooms and card rooms where players can bank, and where those operations are geared and setup for mixed player banking and pure player banking still remain as an option for some players.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
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March 29th, 2013 at 8:27:17 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


I don't know exactly how much exposure sodawater has had to the gaming industry, but my experienced guess it is very little. Player Banking isn't just reading on an Internet site "....1.46." I've dealt years of Pai Gow Poker, player banked and house-banked, and it's about procedures, hands per hour, hand copies, and a million and one other factors that have been re-evaluated in ways stemming from impact in the casino pit, reviews of games' performances, and re-designs of games and Internal controls to determine its continued validity - or invalidity.



Most players really don't care what factors the casino is considering, and are instead focused on the impact on themselves. Player banking is better for the player. Disallowing it is better for the house. Similarly, games that allow player banking are better for the player, and games that don't allow banking are better for the house. EZ PGP tables are more profitable than non-EZ PGP tables, and that profit by definition comes from a transfer of funds from the player to the house. As a player, it seems awfully reasonable to want that transfer to happen as slowly as possible.......
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett

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