No Commission Pai Gow now in Atlantic City

Quote: bw

Question for Dan, in your years of dealing have you seen or dealt a natural 7 card straight flush?

I dealt a wild 7 card straight flush, and five aces twice.
A year or so later at Fiesta, a player (who was also an early investor in EZ Pai Gow, btw), got the 7 card natural SF on a Fortune game playing with his wife. He did not have the progressive bet, and had only a dollar on the Fortune bonus. Strangely and sadly, he passed away the next day after falling asleep in his study bungalow right next to his house.

Quote: TheBigPaybak

First of all, I will say that I like the idea of EZ Pai Gow and will try it out if it appears at a casino I play at. Pai Gow Poker is probably my favorite casino game and I generally play for high stakes.

Thanks - appreciated!

Quote: TheBigPaybak

With all of that said, I think it's a mistake for casinos to not have bankable Pai Gow Poker.

I think they should have it, but in the poker room. Bank all day with like-minded citizens!

Quote: TheBigPaybak

Frankly with the proliferation of casinos, I have a choice as to where I can play, and for casinos that don't offer bankable Pai Gow Poker, I won't play there with any degree of significance. The very minute though, that operators blindly assume that they can start taking away rules that make us -EV players happy, is the minute they'll start to have a problem. It may not manifest itself right away, but when you start taking the attitude that "our business won't be missed" for this or that reason, you're losing site of what it takes to make a good customer happy. Competition has a wonderful way of offering choice these days, and those operators that get a little too greedy will likely pay for their choices in the end.

Casinos - like any other business - cannot and do not operate at a loss. Choice will be offered, sure, but it may not include banking in the casino pit. Casinos who get too greedy may perish, but in the same breath, players who make too many demands or have unreasonable expectations will end up with what they get and not what they want. Competition fosters profitable choices for the house, not losing choices for the house, in order for that house to be there and remain there with their lights on.

I feel like its time for a summary.....
IF you are able to bank every other hand, and play optimally, then regular pai-gow has a lower expected loss per hand, than EZ PaiGow. Since EZ Pai Gow allows more hands per hour, your expected loss per hour is even that much greater with EZ PaiGow than regular Pai Gow.
Since the great majority of players do not bank, for thoise players the expected loss per hand is LOWER with EZ PaiGow, but the expected loss per hour is HIGHER with EZ PaiGow.
The slight differences in EV's generally do not matter to most players, and most players would prefer to play a commission free game.

Sooooo.... I bank whenever I am playing mano a mano against a dealer, and would choose a regular empty paigow table over an EZ Pai gow table. If both tables are full I will play at whichever one has fewer smokers.....

I would say that the rapid expansion in number of tables is the answer as to which force is more important..... Casinos make more per hour with EZ Pai Gow, and players are happy to play.....

Quote: Paigowdan

Casinos - like any other business - cannot and do not operate at a loss. Choice will be offered, sure, but it may not include banking in the casino pit. Casinos who get too greedy may perish, but in the same breath, players who make too many demands or have unreasonable expectations will end up with what they get and not what they want. Competition fosters profitable choices for the house, not losing choices for the house, in order for that house to be there and remain there with their lights on.

Every place can of course do what they want, and I'm just offering my perspective although I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect a few things at a casino, such as:
1. If you play BlackJack, for reasonable rules to be offered, such as staying on soft-17 and paying 1.5:1 on BlackJack
2. If you play a "Pair Plus" bet regardless of the game, to get paid 4:1 on a Flush
3. If you play Pai Gow, to have at least one table offer the ability to bank

I would make the argument that it's easier to make a profit offering the above rules than not, because at least for people like me, you've lost me if you can't do the above. Right now, there's a few places I choose to frequent and other that I purposely avoid, such as those places that don't have those options. As these are all -EV, they are not helping themselves keep the lights on by not having a minimum environment that I feel happy playing at.

Quote: SOOPOO

I feel like its time for a summary.....
IF you are able to bank every other hand, and play optimally, then regular pai-gow has a lower expected loss per hand, than EZ PaiGow. Since EZ Pai Gow allows more hands per hour, your expected loss per hour is even that much greater with EZ PaiGow than regular Pai Gow.
Since the great majority of players do not bank, for thoise players the expected loss per hand is LOWER with EZ PaiGow, but the expected loss per hour is HIGHER with EZ PaiGow.
The slight differences in EV's generally do not matter to most players, and most players would prefer to play a commission free game.

Sooooo.... I bank whenever I am playing mano a mano against a dealer, and would choose a regular empty paigow table over an EZ Pai gow table. If both tables are full I will play at whichever one has fewer smokers.....

I would say that the rapid expansion in number of tables is the answer as to which force is more important..... Casinos make more per hour with EZ Pai Gow, and players are happy to play.....

Good summary, although why not just offer both? I'd be happy with that: in fact, that would be ideal for me and probably most others, I would think.

Quote: SOOPOO

I feel like its time for a summary.....
IF you are able to bank every other hand, and play optimally, then regular pai-gow has a lower expected loss per hand, than EZ PaiGow.

No, SooPoo. It is: "....then Banking Pai Gow poker - regardless of brand - has a lower expected loss per hand than "No player banking" Pai Gow Poker, regardless of brand."

Quote: SOOPOO

Since EZ Pai Gow allows more hands per hour, your expected loss per hour is even that much greater with EZ PaiGow than regular Pai Gow.

No. It's house edge is lower, even though the game is faster, so its table hold is the same as regular Pai Gow poker. Do note that on progressive tables, hold may be higher, because paying the players' progressive awards are credited from the meter pool; competitors' progressive have many table rack pays, which reduces table hold for them.

Quote: SOOPOO

Since the great majority of players do not bank, for thoise players the expected loss per hand is LOWER with EZ PaiGow, but the expected loss per hour is HIGHER with EZ PaiGow.

No. The expected loss is the same. EZ Pai Gow's house edge is lower (this means it is more favorable to the player), but the game is faster, - so the expected win or loss for a session length is about the same for the player.

Quote: Soopoo

The slight differences in EV's generally do not matter to most players, and most players would prefer to play a commission free game.

This is true and logical.

Quote: Soopoo

Sooooo.... I bank whenever I am playing mano a mano against a dealer, and would choose a regular empty paigow table over an EZ Pai gow table. If both tables are full I will play at whichever one has fewer smokers.....

This is healthy. You are an M.D.!

Quote: Soopoo

I would say that the rapid expansion in number of tables is the answer as to which force is more important..... Casinos make more per hour with EZ Pai Gow, and players are happy to play.....

There are more hands per hour with EZ Pai Gow because of its no commission, - so a casino may see more players and buy-ins per shift with it. Also, there is (generally) no banking. Again, do note that all progressive payouts to players are credited off the G3 progressive meter - and not out of the table rack with EZ Pai Gow, but competitors' progressives pay out of the table rack, except for the top jackpots. This makes a difference.

I played this version for the first time on 11-11-11 at the rampart.
Then again on 12-12-12 same place.

Easy to play, no stupid quarters. Maybe 4 dealer Q high paigows in the whole time.

In 60 hands you roughly get 20 winners 20 pushes and 20 losers. (i know the odds are closer to 29% 41% 30%)

So with the commision version you still pay the 5% 20 times for every 1 Dealer Q high paigow
And who is to say that you could beat that anyway.

Good game Dan.

Now make a 13 seat double deck version where the players have someway to chose who gets the first hand
and 13 new progressive bonuses for 7 of kind.

I played EZ PGP for the first time at Showboat in AC this past weekend. I really enjoyed it and have a couple of points in relation to the comments in this thread:

- I don't know what the average bet size is for the average player. I do know that when I sit down at the table with 4 of my friends, the bet sizes will generally vary between $25-$200, mostly in increments of $25. We have only played PGP prior to this last trip, resulting in awkward quarters being passed back and forth, unquestionably slowing the game down. I disagree with earlier comments stating that the simplicity of the commission calculation results in the 5% being a non factor. Even if the mental calculation took no time at all, it still takes longer for them to gather 2 greens, 4 reds, a white and quarter to pay a $75 bet for example than it does to grab 3 greens. Maybe $75 and $125 bets make our group odd, I don't know. All I can say is that there was a significant improvement in game speed as far as we were concerned.

- If I were playing alone, I would opt to play at a table where banking was allowed. For me, that ~1% price reduction would be enough to compensate for the slower game. However, once I have one other person to talk to (meaning one of the people I came with, as I generally don't like strangers nor do I enjoy the typical banal chit chat that takes place with them), I'd pick speed over the ~1%. If that option wasn't available to me in a given location, I don't know if I would play non banking PGP alone or opt for another location. I'll see how I feel if/when it happens. Dan, I know your feelings on player banking, but if it's there as an option to me as a customer, I'm going make decisions taking it into account.

-Last thing, I'll be going to Vegas this summer, and was wondering if there is a comprehensive updated list of Vegas casinos offering or planning to implement EZ Pai Gow by June?

Dan congratulations on the success of the game so far, and a job real well done, IMO.

Quote: gts4ever

I played EZ PGP for the first time at Showboat in AC this past weekend. I really enjoyed it and have a couple of points in relation to the comments in this thread:

- I don't know what the average bet size is for the average player. I do know that when I sit down at the table with 4 of my friends, the bet sizes will generally vary between $25-$200, mostly in increments of $25. We have only played PGP prior to this last trip, resulting in awkward quarters being passed back and forth, unquestionably slowing the game down. I disagree with earlier comments stating that the simplicity of the commission calculation results in the 5% being a non factor. Even if the mental calculation took no time at all, it still takes longer for them to gather 2 greens, 4 reds, a white and quarter to pay a $75 bet for example than it does to grab 3 greens. Maybe $75 and $125 bets make our group odd, I don't know. All I can say is that there was a significant improvement in game speed as far as we were concerned.

Thanks! There is a big improvement in speed, it's huge. DEQ has it at around 20% improvement.
I disagree with claims that it's a non-issue, because yes, all dealers on commission games, - like all clerks, - do have to take a moment and go "Hmm....lemme see...half of $125 is $72.50 - NO - $62.50, and a tenth of THAT is $6.25...so $125 - $6.25 is....$119.75 - NO - $118.75, yeah, that's it...." and THEN they have to go and cut this all out. Paying $125 straight up is one black and one green, and it's done in a flash. And I've seen dealers pay $125 minus commission by taking out $1.25 on the commission, not $6.25.

Quote: gts4ever

- If I were playing alone, I would opt to play at a table where banking was allowed. For me, that ~1% price reduction would be enough to compensate for the slower game. However, once I have one other person to talk to (meaning one of the people I came with, as I generally don't like strangers nor do I enjoy the typical banal chit chat that takes place with them), I'd pick speed over the ~1%. If that option wasn't available to me in a given location, I don't know if I would play non banking PGP alone or opt for another location. I'll see how I feel if/when it happens. Dan, I know your feelings on player banking, but if it's there as an option to me as a customer, I'm going make decisions taking it into account.

Player banking is the choice of the local casino, but we do recommend no banking, and they generally follow manufacturer's recommendations.

Quote: gts4ever

-Last thing, I'll be going to Vegas this summer, and was wondering if there is a comprehensive updated list of Vegas casinos offering or planning to implement EZ Pai Gow by June?

A short list here:
Strip - Venetian, Palazzo, (or Hooters, if near Tropicana).
North - Rampart or Red Rock.
East - East Side Cannery or Boulder Station.
South/Henderson - Fiesta Henderson, Green Valley Ranch.
All great places.

Quote: gts4ever

Dan congratulations on the success of the game so far, and a job real well done, IMO.

Thanks again, I appreciate it!

Quote: Paigowdan

Thanks! There is a big improvement in speed, it's huge. DEQ has it at around 20% improvement.
I disagree with claims that it's a non-issue, because yes, all dealers on commission games, - like all clerks, - do have to take a moment and go "Hmm....lemme see...half of $125 is $72.50 - NO - $62.50, and a tenth of THAT is $6.25...so $125 - $6.25 is....$119.75 - NO - $118.75, yeah, that's it...." and THEN they have to go and cut this all out. Paying $125 straight up is one black and one green, and it's done in a flash. And I've seen dealers pay $125 minus commission by taking out $1.25 on the commission, not $6.25.

Dan, do US dealers really work this way? I thought you guys worked the same way as us, and use the 25c/$1 chips = 5/20 point method?

How the initiated would actually work out the commission on $125. Give the tax on $75, and take the tax from $200 by......

25cent chip = 5 points, $1 chip = 20 points. Take out 75 points out of float to round up to 200, and then take the full $10 off 125, so take out $115. Eureka, the dealer has $118.75 in front of them. Alternatively the player may give the dealer $1.25, so 125 - 25 = 100, take five dollars commission and give player $120.

Quote: Paigowdan

Thanks! There is a big improvement in speed, it's huge. DEQ has it at around 20% improvement.
I disagree with claims that it's a non-issue, because yes, all dealers on commission games, - like all clerks, - do have to take a moment and go "Hmm....lemme see...half of $125 is $72.50 - NO - $62.50, and a tenth of THAT is $6.25...so $125 - $6.25 is....$119.75 - NO - $118.75, yeah, that's it...." and THEN they have to go and cut this all out. Paying $125 straight up is one black and one green, and it's done in a flash. And I've seen dealers pay $125 minus commission by taking out $1.25 on the commission, not $6.25.

Commission is $1 per $20 won. 125/20=6.25. If that takes any dealer longer than 2 seconds, they're in the wrong line of work.

Edit: EZ PGP is a great game, and a vast improvement. But the status quo isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

Re-edit: Houses could help themselves a lot on the pace of play by avoiding $25 minimums. I think that a $20 minimum would result in a higher hold due to the increased pace of play.

" Now, if you wanted to post "I think EZ Pai Gow is crappy because I just don't like Dan," - well, then THAT I would see and respect. "

At last I get the respect due me !

"I think EZ Pai Gow is crappy because I just don't like Dan."

Just to clarify, my intention wasn't to 'DanBash'. I was simply pointing out the way experienced croupiers work. We tend to work in chips/stacks rather than pounds, shillings, and pence.

I think it's hilarious that Dan used $125 as an example of a bet that would slow down gameplay.

Any dealer who has dealt any asian game for longer than a day can take commission out of $125 in her sleep. $5 for the $100, and $1.25 for the $25, probably the two most common bets in the asian pit. lol. It wouldn't even take that long... most players and dealers see $125 and instantly know $6.25 commission.

This whole thing is ridiculously simple. If I am someone who banks, then regular pai gow poker is better because banking is more common. If I never bank, then EZ pai gow is better.

I rarely bank unless I'm playing heads up anyway. People generally dislike when you bank and I'm just trying to have fun. But none of this has to do with Dan's game that allows banking!

On a separate topic, since I believe Pai Gows are correlated with other people having Pai Gows, I think the house edge might be even lower than Dan states. Although now that I think about it, maybe not. Take away 7 non joker cards below a queen from the deck, and I'd think you'd have better than a 72% chance to win the hand? Eh, maybe it balances out.

I can't believe I just read this whole thread. I have nothing to contribute to the argument over HE or player banking, except that most of the casinos around here (Ohio, Indiana, and West Virginia) do not offer player banking at any of their versions PGP.

I just came on here to report that I played No Commission EZ PGP at Belterra Casino in Southern Indiana for the first time a couple nights ago. The game was very enjoyable. It was a $5 table which is a nice option to the $25 minimums required at the new Hollywood Casino in Columbus for fortune PGP.

I Played for approximately two hours (70-80 hands) and saw 2 dealer Q-high (the first time, I had K-high so a dealer Q-high was a welcome sight; even if I would have normally won the hand. I was actually relieved to push after setting and sweating what I believed to be a typically losing hand). At $5 / hand my $100 bankroll fluctuated between $85 and $115 over that whole session. Nobody's getting rich playing this game (except the casinos as they push all day on the main bets and collect on the sucker side bets).

I play PGP because I feel that these tables foster a good environment for social interaction, regardless of one poster's desire to refrain from chit chat.