MrCasinoGames
MrCasinoGames 
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March 21st, 2013 at 9:21:22 PM permalink
Roulette Computers and Cheating Devices.

Cheating Devices.

How Roulette Computer work.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
Zcore13
Zcore13
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March 22nd, 2013 at 11:25:49 AM permalink
I just watched the 2nd video and I don't believe the story. Yes, you might be able to measure the speed of the wheel and yes you might be able to measure the speed of the ball going the opposite way, but I don't think there is any chance in predicting the bounce (the ball does not fall right into a spot most of the time) and making the measurements and placing the proper bets without something looking suspicous.

Also, 2 trials does not equal proof that it works. I'd put this on my urban legend list.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
konceptum
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March 22nd, 2013 at 11:29:50 AM permalink
BBC Article on the Roulette scam.
Obviously, a BBC article doesn't legitimize the event as having actually occurred, but I think it's fairly reasonable. The first link in the OP has a piece about the roulette scanner as well, with a bit more information, perhaps. They state that the computer "predicted" a number that would appear, and the betters would bet on it, as well as neighboring numbers. It sounds to me like perhaps they were able to utilize their technology to predict an 'area' that the ball would land in, based upon the data given, such as speed of the wheel, speed of the ball, etc.
Keyser
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March 22nd, 2013 at 11:50:42 AM permalink
Zscore,

It's far from urban legend. All you have to do is read on the history of the wheel and articles written by the roulette wheel engineer, George Melas.
Zcore13
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March 22nd, 2013 at 12:13:58 PM permalink
Well, I didn't say you had to add it to YOUR urban legend list. It's just on mine, along with dice control, the U.S. taking down the Twin Towers, a shooter in the grassy knoll, the moon landing being faked, Bigfoot and that aliens were found and hid in the Nevada desert.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
MathExtremist
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March 22nd, 2013 at 12:35:48 PM permalink
Read up on Eudaemonic Pie by Thomas Bass. Not only do roulette computers work, they've been successfully used in casinos. That's why it's a crime to do so today.

These days, there's probably an app for that. It would be illegal to use but not terribly hard to implement on a modern smartphone.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Zcore13
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March 22nd, 2013 at 12:57:51 PM permalink
It's probably a crime to use any electronic device in a casino to attempt to gain an advantage, whether it actually works or not.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Keyser
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March 22nd, 2013 at 3:34:46 PM permalink
I can see how something like the ball bounce would appear random to someone like Zscore13. The physics are probably a bit to complex for someone like Zscore to grasp. Unless you have access to your own wheel or access to some coefficient of restitution test results, it probably all seems quite random.
Zcore13
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March 22nd, 2013 at 3:47:35 PM permalink
Haha. Thank you Keyster. Yes, you are obviously way too smart for me. I guess I will have to agree that roullette is not random and the bouncing of the ball wildly around the wheel is easliy calculated.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Keyser
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March 22nd, 2013 at 3:59:11 PM permalink
Zcore13,

If you'd like to learn more, then you can visit the website of George Melas, the chief wheel design engineer for TCS Huxley. He documents various cases throughout the history of the wheel.

Now, about BJ, did you know there are numbers on those cards? Even though those cards appear to vary wildly... ;)

-Keyser
FleaStiff
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March 22nd, 2013 at 4:11:14 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

but I don't think there is any chance in predicting the bounce (the ball does not fall right into a spot most of the time) and making the measurements and placing the proper bets without something looking suspicious.

You are right, them frets get in the way, that is why they are there.
Roulette computers do measure wheel and ball rotation speeds, the rate of decay, the most likely octet for final rest... but the complex part is bouncing off the frets and wheel parts before landing inside a certain slot.

Quite frankly, I don't think wheel rotation speed and ball rotation speed ever differ by all that much, the real math is in the unknown and perhaps unknowable hopping through the field of frets.
Zcore13
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March 22nd, 2013 at 6:25:34 PM permalink
Quote: Keyser

Zcore13,

If you'd like to learn more, then you can visit the website of George Melas, the chief wheel design engineer for TCS Huxley. He documents various cases throughout the history of the wheel.

Now, about BJ, did you know there are numbers on those cards? Even though those cards appear to vary wildly... ;)

-Keyser



I think maybe we don't think on the same page, but may agree in principle. Because of my work, I think in concrete... real life situations. In theory or in a controlled practice enviorment, it may be possible to add a few percentage points to the players side by using computers to predict what area the ball might land in and figure that sometimes the ball will not bounce, hence creating an advantage over just random number picking.

My issue is, there is no way to get away with this and capatalize on it. Go into any casino and point an electronic device or cell phone at the wheel and have another person do the same at the ball. Then have a third person (or even the first two) place a bunch of bets only on half or quarter of the board. You know how long that will be allowed? About 1 spin. Maybe 2.

It's not real life, so to me it's not possible. In a lab, maybe. But who cares.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Keyser
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March 22nd, 2013 at 6:39:20 PM permalink
In real life, within live casinos, it has already happened, has been documented, and laws have been passed. You can also learn about the case history at casino gaming risk seminars and see such computers in action.
Zcore13
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March 22nd, 2013 at 6:49:35 PM permalink
I should have prefaced my comment with "in a U.S. casino" as I usually do. I really don't care what happens in third world, un-regulated, under-developed or inexperienced gambling jurisdictions.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
MathExtremist
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March 22nd, 2013 at 7:49:52 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I should have prefaced my comment with "in a U.S. casino" as I usually do. I really don't care what happens in third world, un-regulated, under-developed or inexperienced gambling jurisdictions.

ZCore13


What happens in Vegas, happened over 50 years ago.
http://graphics.cs.columbia.edu/courses/mobwear/resources/thorp-iswc98.pdf

Really, go read "Eudaemonic Pie."
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Croupier
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March 22nd, 2013 at 10:51:00 PM permalink
I can vouch for having seen a number of working roulette computers for myself at a game security seminar. As this was held in on of our casinos I did get to test it for myself.

Its all to do with the maths in the standard rate of decay in the last few spins of the wheel. good dealers have this covered by calling no more bets early.
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Zcore13
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March 22nd, 2013 at 11:11:15 PM permalink
I guess I should have specified that along with "in a U.S. casino" it would also have to be capable of of being done and gotten away with this century.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
MathExtremist
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March 22nd, 2013 at 11:36:04 PM permalink
I bet you could do it today with off the shelf hardware. Nike+ in your shoe, an iPhone in your pocket, and custom software to compute the decay based on foot taps and vibrate based on whether to bet voisins, tiers, or neither. Simple. Totally illegal, but simple.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
AlanMendelson
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March 23rd, 2013 at 1:34:57 AM permalink
I've written about this before... how I was at a major strip casino for a demonstration of targeting a section of four numbers on a wheel. Not a problem at all for a dealer to pull it off if they want to.

All sorts of scams could work in a casino if there were some level of inside cooperation. It's the checks and balances that keep the games honest.

Sure the casinos could rig the video poker machines... until the whistleblower says something.
Sure the casinos could use "biased dice"... until the whistleblower says something.
Sure the blackjack dealer can flash cards or deal from the bottom... until he's caught.

All the scams are possible, nothing is foolproof.
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