Crazy Poker 4, Casino Rule Mistake?
February 11th, 2013 at 7:56:41 AM
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I was recently introduced to this game at a newer casino. The casino only required the ANTE bet and not the Super Plus bet or queens up bet.
If I am understanding the odds, we had a plus 3.1% edge? Is that edge on original bet or does that include when you keep your hand and bet 1x or 2x.
The casino shutdown game after 4 days with rumors of losses of 150-200K.
If I am understanding the odds, we had a plus 3.1% edge? Is that edge on original bet or does that include when you keep your hand and bet 1x or 2x.
The casino shutdown game after 4 days with rumors of losses of 150-200K.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:05:35 AM
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I'm surprised that they got the rules wrong on a game that's this well established (and marketed by SHFL). But, yes, if they really didn't require the Super Bonus, then the player would have had a huge advantage.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
February 11th, 2013 at 8:37:05 AM
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The Super Bonus bet is a mandatory bet that is required to generate the house edge. It has a house edge of 34%, and is used in conjunction with the ANTE and RAISE bets, which combine for a player advantage of 31%, to produce the final house edge of 3%. Without the Super Bonus bet, the player has an extreme advantage of 31%.
The layout explicitly states ANTE = SUPER BONUS to indicate that both bets must be made.
see: Crazy 4 Poker.
The layout explicitly states ANTE = SUPER BONUS to indicate that both bets must be made.
see: Crazy 4 Poker.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 11th, 2013 at 8:40:51 AM
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SHFL Entertainment did the training on this install, I assume. Anyone see a lawsuit coming ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 11th, 2013 at 10:24:08 AM
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Is that edge on initial bet or does it include the Aces up bet also. I am trying to figure out if I was playing the max of $100, KQ85 strategy, and triples on the Aces up, what would be the hourly rate at 15 hands an hour. Was the edge really 31% or 3.1%?
February 11th, 2013 at 10:27:03 AM
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Quote: BuzzardSHFL Entertainment did the training on this install, I assume. Anyone see a lawsuit coming ?
No.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 11th, 2013 at 10:28:33 AM
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Quote: sschaefe5Is that edge on initial bet or does it include the Aces up bet also. I am trying to figure out if I was playing the max of $100, KQ85 strategy, and triples on the Aces up, what would be the hourly rate at 15 hands an hour. Was the edge really 31% or 3.1%?
Yes, without the Mandatory Super Bonus bet, it was 31%
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 11th, 2013 at 10:35:46 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanNo.
Is that no to any lawsuit or NO SHFL Entertainment did not do any training ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 11th, 2013 at 10:38:11 AM
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So $465 was the expected hour return at $100 max bet and 15 hands an hour.... BTW Max bet was reduced from $500 for 1.5 days to $100 last 1.5 days.
Unfortunately I fell below EV; still profitable; but others ran EV better.
I will post details once the gravy train is permanently over.
Unfortunately I fell below EV; still profitable; but others ran EV better.
I will post details once the gravy train is permanently over.
February 11th, 2013 at 10:41:52 AM
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Quote: BuzzardIs that no to any lawsuit or NO SHFL Entertainment did not do any training ?
No to a lawsuit.
First of all, If a dealer or casino makes the mistake, it cannot be blamed on the distributor. Mistakes happen at casinos, believe me, it is not uncommon.
Secondly, SHFL has a good legal department and some resources.
Third, the layout is self-explanatory.
Fourth, the accurate procedures on the game are available from a wide variety of sources, including the site wizardofodds.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 11th, 2013 at 10:53:54 AM
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Just wondering how a mistake happened. With a new install I would expect SHFL Entertainment to provide training. And with 3 or 4 d days of play, surely one of the dealers would have questioned how the game was being played. As for the layout being self explanatory ?
I was curious about your use of the equal sign. Thought it was you way of expressing both must be bet . Not everyone would equate equal signs as indicative of both bets being mandatory. Looking at a felt like this my first thought would be that if you bet the Super Bonus, you must be an amount equal to the ante bet.
Link removed by management
I never said a lawsuit would be valid, but, well, you know lawyers !
I was curious about your use of the equal sign. Thought it was you way of expressing both must be bet . Not everyone would equate equal signs as indicative of both bets being mandatory. Looking at a felt like this my first thought would be that if you bet the Super Bonus, you must be an amount equal to the ante bet.
Link removed by management
I never said a lawsuit would be valid, but, well, you know lawyers !
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Oct 5, 2017
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 11th, 2013 at 10:58:47 AM
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And a person could indeed interpret this in 2 different ways.
Three initial bets are available: The Ante, Super Bonus, and the Queens Up. The player must bet equal amounts on the Ante and Super Bonus. The Queens Up may be any amount.
Three initial bets are available: The Ante, Super Bonus, and the Queens Up. The player must bet equal amounts on the Ante and Super Bonus. The Queens Up may be any amount.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 11th, 2013 at 11:36:18 AM
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The equal sign indicates that both bets must be made, and that they must be equal.
The distributor does NOT always do the new game install training; the casino operator may at times handle it.
The distributor does NOT always do the new game install training; the casino operator may at times handle it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 11th, 2013 at 12:12:55 PM
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Well.,obviously someone read those equal signs to indicate that if you bet both, your bets must be equal. And not that you must bet both spots. I will defer to you as the expert as to whether or not SHFL Entertainment provides training on all new installs.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 11th, 2013 at 1:01:48 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanThe equal sign indicates that both bets must be made, and that they must be equal.
The distributor does NOT always do the new game install training; the casino operator may at times handle it.
By standards of modern day casino games, this is definitely correct. But for anyone not aware of this fact, I don't expect many people to realize that a sole equal sign means "mandatory bet". Roughly the same player edge could be realized if a casino allowed this for Ultimate Texas Hold 'em.
Quote: sschaefe5So $465 was the expected hour return at $100 max bet and 15 hands an hour....
Did they really deal the game that slow?
February 11th, 2013 at 1:15:42 PM
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Per Buzz's PM request, here is my (non-binding) legal opinion:
No judgment for the casino against SHFL. Casino was contributory negligent; you can ask Brandon Phillips, but I think that is a complete bar to recovery in Nevada. Counsel for casino would also have to show SHFL breached a duty of care that led to casino's damages -- again, pretty difficult. SHFL's lawyers would get a dismissal or summary judgment quite easily.
No judgment for the casino against SHFL. Casino was contributory negligent; you can ask Brandon Phillips, but I think that is a complete bar to recovery in Nevada. Counsel for casino would also have to show SHFL breached a duty of care that led to casino's damages -- again, pretty difficult. SHFL's lawyers would get a dismissal or summary judgment quite easily.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
February 11th, 2013 at 1:38:45 PM
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I would think if you had smart players at table you could get ~30 hands an hour. I can't tell you how frustrating it was to have players constantly chipping up, betting $45, trying to figure out what 3 times that is. Dealer then would have to double check there 3X bet, then on the payout check it again.....
Some of those same people would still bet the queens up as they were there for a different reason then I was... We actually had people start buying seats last 1.5 days.
Some of those same people would still bet the queens up as they were there for a different reason then I was... We actually had people start buying seats last 1.5 days.
February 11th, 2013 at 1:58:18 PM
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Quote: sschaefe5
Some of those same people would still bet the queens up as they were there for a different reason then I was... We actually had people start buying seats last 1.5 days.
It's pretty amazing the casino kept running it when people began to buy seats. Or someone on the floor didn't bother to re-read a rules sheet.
February 11th, 2013 at 2:00:54 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 11th, 2013 at 2:13:40 PM
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I would have pulled over the pit boss and filled him in. Everyone's different.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 11th, 2013 at 2:18:51 PM
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Quote: sschaefe5Is that edge on initial bet or does it include the Aces up bet also. I am trying to figure out if I was playing the max of $100, KQ85 strategy, and triples on the Aces up, what would be the hourly rate at 15 hands an hour. Was the edge really 31% or 3.1%?
If you did not have to play the super bonus hand, basic strategy would change dramatically. A part of the reason you play a hand as weak as KQ85 is to protect your super bonus bet. Someone smarter than me can figure it out, but I'm guessing you would need at least a strong ace hand to play without the super bonus hand in play. The edge probably would approach 40%.
February 11th, 2013 at 2:31:05 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
February 11th, 2013 at 2:42:58 PM
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It is not uncommon for a Casino to change a rule, procedure or pay table from the standard or the trained way for their install. If a Pit Boss or Shift Manager told a dealer it was ok to do it that way, word spreads quickly amongst dealers and they don't generally question things.
I know in this case it was a mistake by the House, but someone in Surveillence or higher up in the Table Games department should have seen this happening and jumped out of their shoes. Tells you a little about how things are being run there.
ZCore13
I know in this case it was a mistake by the House, but someone in Surveillence or higher up in the Table Games department should have seen this happening and jumped out of their shoes. Tells you a little about how things are being run there.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
February 11th, 2013 at 3:44:24 PM
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It is rumored that they filed the rules wrong with the gaming commission; is anyone familiar with that process? Do they do that at corporate level, state level or individual casino level?
February 11th, 2013 at 3:46:19 PM
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Which state? Everyone has their own set of rules.
February 11th, 2013 at 3:52:18 PM
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I always laugh when I here that. I'd be surprised if the rules were sent to the Department of Gaming that way. That's the easy way out when questioned by customers. It's possible, but my guess is they just made a mistake in not requiring the required bet along with the ante. Again, if I were the Casino General Manager there, I'd be looking at some job performance issues.
ZCore13
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
February 11th, 2013 at 3:53:33 PM
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Is there any possibility that the game was mistaken as Four Card Poker? That game only has an Ante and Play spot, with Aces Up as well.
February 11th, 2013 at 4:23:56 PM
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The game was originally was 4 card poker and Crazy 4 replaced it in the past week. Rumor was they needed to wait until March to get the rules re-submitted. The game has been shutdown for 24 hours; but was hoping they would be dumb enough to open it again or made same mistake at sister property...
February 11th, 2013 at 5:00:27 PM
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Quote: sschaefe5The game was originally was 4 card poker and Crazy 4 replaced it in the past week. Rumor was they needed to wait until March to get the rules re-submitted. The game has been shutdown for 24 hours; but was hoping they would be dumb enough to open it again or made same mistake at sister property...
That explains a lot. And them making the same mistake again is pretty wishful thinking I think.
February 11th, 2013 at 6:56:09 PM
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Doesn't hurt to dream.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 12th, 2013 at 12:09:03 AM
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Props to anyone who got in on this action. Stunning, really amazing case of casino incompetence.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
February 12th, 2013 at 9:38:55 AM
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Quote: sschaefe5It is rumored that they filed the rules wrong with the gaming commission; is anyone familiar with that process? Do they do that at corporate level, state level or individual casino level?
UH OH If' that's true, SHFL Entertainment might be on the hook. What casino and what state? OP or anybody ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 12th, 2013 at 10:09:47 AM
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Quote: BuzzardDoesn't hurt to dream.
It does if you are driving at the time.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
February 12th, 2013 at 10:19:47 AM
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Quote: BuzzardWhat casino and what state? OP or anybody ?
I would love to know the details, now that the opportunity has dried up. It sounds like sschaefe5 was there...
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
February 12th, 2013 at 11:17:19 AM
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I wonder if I was lucky enough to be at the table if I would have ever gotten up! Were any of the players smart enough to alter their basic strategy and make even more money by not playing those king high hands?
February 12th, 2013 at 12:05:56 PM
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SHFL has absolutely nothing to do with submissions to the State. Every Casino (Table Games Department) designs there own rules/procedures. If lease Three Card Poker and decide I want to show one of the dealers cards face up that's up to me. I'm sure there are a few people to blame for this mistake, but it should come down to the Table Games Manager for who is unlimately responsible.
ZCore13
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
February 12th, 2013 at 1:22:40 PM
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I would not assume that the opportunity has dried up until the table re-opens with the "proper" rules. Until then I suggest to OP that he not reveal the location, in case the opportunity is in fact still alive.
February 12th, 2013 at 2:32:00 PM
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Quote: Zcore13SHFL has absolutely nothing to do with submissions to the State. Every Casino (Table Games Department) designs there own rules/procedures. If lease Three Card Poker and decide I want to show one of the dealers cards face up that's up to me. I'm sure there are a few people to blame for this mistake, but it should come down to the Table Games Manager for who is unlimately responsible.
ZCore13
I think SHFL Entertainment does submit the game to the states it intends to offer it's products.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 12th, 2013 at 2:38:56 PM
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Quote: Zcore13SHFL has absolutely nothing to do with submissions to the State. Every Casino (Table Games Department) designs there own rules/procedures. If lease Three Card Poker and decide I want to show one of the dealers cards face up that's up to me. I'm sure there are a few people to blame for this mistake, but it should come down to the Table Games Manager for who is unlimately responsible.
ZCore13
No.
Gaming distributors submit their games and specifications to the state gaming authorities precisely to get their games approved in a state.
I spend half of my work time handling gaming approval documents and needs in this business for a distributor.
If a casino operator wants to modify a game specification that a distributor had gotten approved, they have to either work within the guidelines of the product (which has some reasonable leeway like using different house ways on Pai Gow poker), or risk being in error - and out of compliance, which was the case here.
For public domain games that were approved as public domain games, and without a distributor, - as in basic blackjack, roulette or craps - casino houses do set the game parameters.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 12th, 2013 at 2:40:25 PM
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Dan to the rescue once again. Here is a link to SHFL Entertainment and House Money in Washington.
http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/docs/game_rules/house_money.pdf
Note the game is only approved under the rules SHFL Entertainment provided.
http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/docs/game_rules/house_money.pdf
Note the game is only approved under the rules SHFL Entertainment provided.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 12th, 2013 at 2:42:27 PM
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There you go.....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
February 12th, 2013 at 2:48:10 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanFor public domain games that were approved as public domain games, and without a distributor, - as in basic blackjack, roulette or craps - casino houses do set the game parameters.
And even then, only within approved limits. For example, New Jersey is very specific on the rules of games like blackjack or craps, and a casino operator cannot change them willy-nilly without risking a compliance violation. The same is true in Nevada, though the rules aren't so formally codified. It turns out that paying 6:5 on naturals instead of 3:2 wasn't ever approved by the GCB, but according to them (based on a phone conversation), it should have been.
So no, casino operators don't generally get to change rules to the games they operate.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
February 12th, 2013 at 2:52:13 PM
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Several years ago Colorado approved 6 to 5 Blackjack, but the casinos said they had no intention of implementing it. I don't need to finish this post, do I ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 12th, 2013 at 8:16:38 PM
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Not exactly a Dan to the rescue moment. Dan is familiar with the Nevada process. He's been on his new job a whole 2 weeks? There's still a lot to learn. Game developers/distributors do not submit things to the State in all States. In Arizona for example, every game must be submitted by a Casino to the State for approval. If you approach the State with a new table game, they will tell you to find a Casino to "sponsor it". No Casino to give it a shot, no approval for use in the State.
Even in Nevada I would think each Casino has to submit their individual rules/regulations for a game, even if it's already been ok'd by the State. IF this Casino that made the mistake is in Nevada, I am 100% sure SHFL had the game approved with correct rules. It was the Casino that either didn't apply them correctly or submitted them incorrectly as their rules to the State.
ZCore13
Even in Nevada I would think each Casino has to submit their individual rules/regulations for a game, even if it's already been ok'd by the State. IF this Casino that made the mistake is in Nevada, I am 100% sure SHFL had the game approved with correct rules. It was the Casino that either didn't apply them correctly or submitted them incorrectly as their rules to the State.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
February 12th, 2013 at 8:23:48 PM
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We can be certain the casino is not in Nevada. The inventor has a far flung empire, but Nevada is his home base. Hopefully the OP or somebody will enlighten us as to which state this occurred in.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 13th, 2013 at 5:30:52 PM
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The game had 250 installs as far back as May of 2009 per Teliot's book, "Contemporary Casino Table Game Design", and likely has more installs since them.
This is a pure operator failure and I am sure there have been some heated internal meetings regarding how this could have happened with such a known commodity.
SHFL has zero liability here unless it can be shown that they incorrectly trained the staff at the property. I put the chance of that at less than 1%.
This is a pure operator failure and I am sure there have been some heated internal meetings regarding how this could have happened with such a known commodity.
SHFL has zero liability here unless it can be shown that they incorrectly trained the staff at the property. I put the chance of that at less than 1%.
February 13th, 2013 at 6:48:56 PM
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It is rumored that they filed the rules wrong with the gaming commission; is anyone familiar with that process? Do they do that at corporate level, state level or individual casino level?
Per an earlier post. That might raise the threshold above 1% if true.
Per an earlier post. That might raise the threshold above 1% if true.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
February 20th, 2013 at 10:38:53 AM
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Here you go.... The gravy train ended...
February 20th, 2013 at 10:47:41 AM
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This has probably been said, but the house edge on the Super Bonus is 34.78%. I show the player advantage if the Super Bonus were not mandated to be 31.36%, assuming no changes in strategy.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 20th, 2013 at 11:17:22 AM
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I got down on that game. I bought a seat for $400. Stayed 22 hours. Crushed it.
"I don't have a gambling problem. I have a financial problem."
