Pai Gow Tiles Question
| Banker | Average Low Hand | Average High Hand |
|---|---|---|
| Dealer | 81% of the way between 5-with-L6 (9+L6) and 5-with-H7 (L8+H7) | 96% of the way between 8-with-11 (7+11) and 8-with-H10 (L8+H10) |
| Player | 29% of the way between 5-with-L6 (9+L6) and 5-with-H7 (L8+H7) | 49% of the way between 8-with-H10 (L8+H10) and 8-with-H4 (L4+H4) |
Quote: JBIf you are using optimal strategy and were not dealt a pair, the average low and high hands that you will play are as follows:
Banker Average Low Hand Average High Hand Dealer 81% of the way
between
5-with-L6 (9+L6)
and
5-with-H7 (L8+H7)96% of the way
between
8-with-11 (7+11)
and
8-with-H10 (L8+H10)Player 29% of the way
between
5-with-L6 (9+L6)
and
5-with-H7 (L8+H7)49% of the way
between
8-with-H10 (L8+H10)
and
8-with-H4 (L4+H4)
I think us mere mortals would just accept 5 and 8 for low and high hand respectively.
I am interested in the purpose of the question.... why would the OP exclude pairs from the equation?
Quote: SOOPOOwhy would the OP exclude pairs from the equation?
I don't know. I once worked this out including pairs. The median low was a 5, and the median high was a 9. I don't remember where in the spectrum of 5s and 9s.
Quote: WizardI don't know. I once worked this out including pairs. The median low was a 5, and the median high was a 9. I don't remember where in the spectrum of 5s and 9s.
If you include pairs, the results are:
Dealer banker:
--- low hand is between 5-with-L10 and 5-with-L4
--- high hand is between 8-with-H2 and 9-with-L6
Player banker:
--- low hand is between 5-with-L10 and 5-with-L4
--- high hand is between 9-with-L6 and 9-with-L10
For background, I have NEVER played Pai Gow Tiles in person--only on the Wizard of Odds website game. I decided to learn the game before making my first trip to Vegas after I graduate from graduate school in March to have something other than black jack and craps to play. In general, the only casino experience I have is from random locations like Monaco, a cruise ship, Busan, Korea, and when I was 18 going to the Indian Casinos in WA State to play Texas Hold'em (which was cool that you could get in when you were 18).
My question is: how do you look at your tiles without exposing them to everyone else or does it matter? I have seen on other threads on this board with phrases to effect of, "if you happen to see a day or teen tile..." which leads me to believe that most of the time you can't see other people's tiles.
Also, the videos on the Wizard of Odds site are very helpful for other games, but not so much for Pai Gow tiles because there is no video. Is there any video out there of a few people just playing Pai Gow Tiles out there so I can get a feel for the game other than using the free trainer on the Wizard of Odds site?
It's easy to look at your tiles without anyone else seeing them. Just protect them like you would a poker hand. If you've ever played Omaha you know how easy it is to look at your four hole cards, and PG tiles are a lot smaller than poker cards.
But I wouldn't even worry about it. Just look at them naturally.
What you CANNOT do is turn the tiles over on the table or overtly show them to other players, until everyone has set his hand.
As a first-time player, I recommend you look at your own tiles slowly, and then once everyone is done, show the dealer your tiles to verify you have set the hand in a reasonable way. If one of your neighbors also seems like he knows what he is doing, you can show him after he has set his hand.
I was teaching my friend PG tiles the other day, and after 15 mins he thought he had a good handle on the game. One hand he wouldn't let me look at (after I set my hand) for advice, and set it himself. He had day, day, tit, chit, and kept the day pair together. That gigantic mistake cost him $95.
Quote: PatrickKiefer
I have seen on other threads on this board with phrases to effect of, "if you happen to see a day or teen tile..."
It's a LOT more useful to know if a teen or day tile is in the dealer's hand than if you see it in another player's hand (although the latter is useful, too). If you happen to see a teen or day tile exposed during the wash, if you can track it until it gets stacked up, then you will know if it's in the dealer's hand or not.
I know you can have the dealer set them but I think it takes the fun out of figuring it out yourself... but I don't want to hold up the game either.
Quote: PatrickKieferThanks for the reply. One follow up: generally how "fast" should I be able to set my tiles? 15 seconds? 30?
I know you can have the dealer set them but I think it takes the fun out of figuring it out yourself... but I don't want to hold up the game either.
If you take 20 or more seconds to set your hand, you will be the last person on the table to do so. But I would not worry about that. Pai Gow tends to be a slow-paced, low-pressure, sociable game. Most of the other players won't mind a newcomer playing slowly, even if he is white.
Also, about half the time it will be exceedingly obvious which way the hand needs to be set. So you should be able to manage those in under 10 seconds, and maybe take a bit longer on the tougher ones.
Also consider that there's probably somebody at the table who's playing two hands.
I think if you can figure it out and set your hand in 30-45 seconds, you'll be able to keep up. There's no need to practice at home until you can get your time down to 20 seconds.
Quote: PatrickKiefer
My question is: how do you look at your tiles without exposing them to everyone else or does it matter?
This is a terrific question. Like you, I learned the game online and got all my practice on the Wizard's app before I played in a casino. My first time in the casino was overwhelming. I'm not sure what it is, but there's something about handling and examining real tiles which is very different from the computer app.
I strongly recommend that you buy a set of tiles. I got mine from Amazon. Randomly pull hands of four tiles from a pile. Practice handling and examining the tiles. Everybody has a different way to do it. You'll need to find the way that works for you.
Personally, I pick up two tiles in one hand and look at them together. Do they work together, or not so much? If they work together, set them down and examine the other two in the same fashion. Do you need to swap tiles between hands or not? If the first two don't go together well (usually the case), take a look at a third tile with the other hand. Does it go with either of the first two? If so, combine them. Look at the final tile. Hope it fills out a monster hand!
Slow rolling the tiles like this makes the hand a little easier to digest. Also, I think it is fun to watch the hand develop one tile at a time. Its interesting how often the last tile makes the difference between a monster and complete crap.
Quote: sodawaterpapachubby, i was thinking along your lines, too, until I actually timed out 20 seconds. it's longer than i thought. everything you said is true but i feel like all of that happens in 15 seconds.
Its just my impression. I've never actually sat with a stopwatch at the table. But it might be interesting to do!
Quote: PapaChubbyMany experienced players will feel the face of the tile without looking at it to determine its value. They'll think about it in between each tile. Then, they'll look at each tile one at a time to verify. Then they'll set their hand. Then they'll show it to their friend who is standing behind them, and talk about it for awhile. Then they'll show it to the dealer to show him/her how good/bad of a dealing job they're doing.
lol.
Thanks for the replies. I have already ordered as set of tiles (also from amazon) because of the reasons you said.
I timed my self on the wizard game while covering up the points at the bottom so I have to add up the points in my head and what have you... I can usually get in under a min and I have only been playing since Saturday night when I started reading the rules on PaiGow.com. Some straightforward hands I am getting in under 15 but that is only if I don't go through all the possibilities.
Right now I like to go through all three possible hands one at a time to make sure I don't miss something, my biggest problem with that is keeping the other hands in my head while I am adding the second or third possible hand... but the practice is helping. I got 60 days until I hit the strip so I hope I can get my time down!
I noticed on some other threads that the minimum is usually around $25; is that still true?
I like the MGM casinos - specifically MGM Grand, Bellagio, and Aria. A benefit of those places (besides their being really nice) is that they don't deal with quarters on the commission on a $25 bet. This actually saves you a lot of money over the long run if you stick to $25 bets. They also comp fairly well on the game if you play rated.Quote: PatrickKieferWhat casinos in Las Vegas do you guys like to play PG Tiles at? Are any better or worse than others?
I noticed on some other threads that the minimum is usually around $25; is that still true?
Palazzo is also a really nice place to play, and doesn't use quarters. It's my personal favorite -- but I like the Palazzo casino in general. For low limits, Harrah's is $15, and Palace Station is $10, but their atmosphere is correspondingly worse.
Quote: teddysI like the MGM casinos - specifically MGM Grand, Bellagio, and Aria. A benefit of those places (besides their being really nice) is that they don't deal with quarters on the commission on a $25 bet. This actually saves you a lot of money over the long run if you stick to $25 bets. They also comp fairly well on the game if you play rated.
Palazzo is also a really nice place to play, and doesn't use quarters. It's my personal favorite -- but I like the Palazzo casino in general. For low limits, Harrah's is $15, and Palace Station is $10, but their atmosphere is correspondingly worse.
Yeah, I was wondering on the $25 bet--do they just take a dollar (or a 4% commission[I think :/ ])? Also, is $25 a bet enough to get rated at MGM Grand, Bellagio, and Aria or does it bump up to $50 because of the slower play?
Yes and yes.Quote: PatrickKieferYeah, I was wondering on the $25 bet--do they just take a dollar (or a 4% commission[I think :/ ])? Also, is $25 a bet enough to get rated at MGM Grand, Bellagio, and Aria or does it bump up to $50 because of the slower play?
Quote: teddysYes and yes.Quote: PatrickKieferYeah, I was wondering on the $25 bet--do they just take a dollar (or a 4% commission[I think :/ ])? Also, is $25 a bet enough to get rated at MGM Grand, Bellagio, and Aria or does it bump up to $50 because of the slower play?
I'll add that Mirage was also doing this on my last trip in October - I played for $25 and they only took a dollar commission as well. Of course, that was the trip in which I'd get a pair, and the dealer would get a higher pair every time. Still, had a good time, being the only person at the table. Was even complemented for knowing how to play based on the strategies here of high-9 versus gong/wong!
-B
Quote: toastcmuWas even complemented for knowing how to play based on the strategies here of high-9 versus gong/wong!
Are you talking about the third rule in the JB simple strategy?
Quote: JB Simple StrategyWong, Gong, and High Nine’s
1. If you have both H2 and L2, play the best high hand.
2. Play the best low hand if it is worth 6 or 7 points and the tiles include a L2 and/or H8.
3. Play Wong or Gong instead of High Nine if the fourth tile is a 4 or 5.
4. Play High Nine, Gong, or Wong, in that order of preference.
-B
Considering each casino has their own seemingly semi-secret "house way," what is to prevent a dealer from changing how they set their tiles based upon what the player set their tiles as?
Or, after reviewing the tape, the management sees that the dealer made a mistake in setting their tiles per the house way in hand where the player won, having to reclaim the money from the player, after any number of subsequent hands being play, because the house way would have resulted in a push?
I don't think this situation would be encountered much and I believe the casinos are honest brokers, but I am still trying to get a feel for the game.
Quote: PatrickKieferConsidering each casino has their own seemingly semi-secret "house way," what is to prevent a dealer from changing how they set their tiles based upon what the player set their tiles as?
Based on standard practice, the dealer does not see your tiles until after they have set their own hand.
If you choose to show your hand to the dealer before they've set their hand (to get some advice or whatever), then I suppose you have to rely on some combination of the following:
1. The dealer's honesty.
2. It's harder for the dealer to adjust their hand to beat yours, rather than just playing house way.
3. The dealer really has no incentive to beat you. It's probably in their best interest (tips) to let you win.
4. Its pretty rare that a borderline house way case will arise at the same time that it will affect whether you win/lose the hand.
I might have conveyed the question poorly, but do you get what I am asking? It would prevent people from getting put off by having to bank against people playing larger bets.
Or maybe I am still confused about banking... ;)
Quote: PatrickKieferAnother Pai Gow question, but more theoretical, or hypothetical, or whatever... Why doesn't the banker switch back and forth between the players and dealer when there is more than one player? So instead of "the banker" going from dealer to player A to player B to dealer to player A, etc. it just goes back and forth between the dealer and the players effectively having the house play two one-on-one games against each player. To protect against players only playing when the players are the banker, the casino can require all players to enter the game when the dealer is the banker.
I might have conveyed the question poorly, but do you get what I am asking? It would prevent people from getting put off by having to bank against people playing larger bets.
Or maybe I am still confused about banking... ;)
It varies from casino to casino. Some casinos have the casino bank, then offer it to player A, then the casino banks, then offer it to player B, then.... Other casinos have the casino bank, then will allow player B to bank if player A declines. All have the casino bank at a minimum every other hand. You are not permitted, in Pai Gow Tiles, to tag along with the banker if you did not participate in the previous hand. In Pai Gow Cards, you can always bet against the player who opts to bank. If you are making a large bet, the player can, after seeing your bet, choose not to bank that hand.
People should never be 'put off' by having to bank against people playing larger bets. The table exists for those people playing larger bets, not to keep it as a private table for those making smaller bets.
If they alternate the bank between players and casino in the manner which I initially described, I don't have to worry about the whale, or feel like I am forced to play the game with a 2.5% house edge (by not ever banking) when I could do it for 1.5 % with the banking alternating back and forth. The casino still wins in the long term and the patron is more likely to play more hands per hour in an already slow hands per hour game.
Just my two cents.
Quote: PatrickKieferThanks for the reply and explaining the variances from casino to casino. You mentioned that people should "never be put off" by having to bank against people playing larger bets, but I think people are (granted, I have never actually played the game aside from the WoO Java game). What if the guy next to me is play $500 a hand and I am playing $25 with a $1000 in chips on the table? No way am I going to bank when he could take me for $500 even if 42% of hands end in push and I trump him if the high or low hand ties. Conversely, the whale shouldn't (possibly) feel obliged to sit a hand out because I am banking and wants to maintain a harmonious table between players...
If they alternate the bank between players and casino in the manner which I initially described, I don't have to worry about the whale, or feel like I am forced to play the game with a 2.5% house edge (by not ever banking) when I could do it for 1.5 % with the banking alternating back and forth. The casino still wins in the long term and the patron is more likely to play more hands per hour in an already slow hands per hour game.
Just my two cents.
In real life if you are not willing to bank against the players you will not get to bank that often. I play at a lot of 'off hours' when in Vegas, so I do get to play one on one against the dealer and of course bank every other hand.
Another quick question: after reading the review of the Revel's Pai Gow Tiles, I was wondering if any Las Vegas casinos have a Pai Gow table open normally in the morning time, like after breakfast or so. Ideally, for various reasons I would like to play Pai Gow in the morning and afternoon when it is less crowded and I am probably will not have imbibed a few adult beverages and my thinking will be clear.
Quote: PatrickKieferThanks for all the great information so far.
Another quick question: after reading the review of the Revel's Pai Gow Tiles, I was wondering if any Las Vegas casinos have a Pai Gow table open normally in the morning time, like after breakfast or so. Ideally, for various reasons I would like to play Pai Gow in the morning and afternoon when it is less crowded and I am probably will not have imbibed a few adult beverages and my thinking will be clear.
I do not know about Vegas, but I have played Borgata's PG tiles table many times between 8 am and noon on weekends. So my guess is you should be OK at the larger properties.
Quote: PatrickKieferI was wondering if any Las Vegas casinos have a Pai Gow table open normally in the morning time, like after breakfast or so.
MGM Grand and Palace Station usually have their pai gow tables open 24/7. There are probably others too, like Mandalay Bay.
