Mini Baccarat

Can anyone explain to me why Mini Baccarat has the lowest hold percentage of most games?

Same reason that Blackjack in mature markets (read: with good players) also has a low hold percentage: it is a low house edge game.
House edge is just over 1%, and the table hold is about 15%. The income of the game is good, as the action level/dollar value per bet made is high.

People buy in too big :)

I think a high percentage of mini-bac games in Vegas are at Gold Coast and at Palace Station.

Gold Coast has $10 tables, and Palace Station has $25 tables.

Even at these low limit tables, if you go, you will see a lot of Asian players who have $300 to $3000 stacks of chips.

I think part of the culture of playing Mini-Baccarat is to show off the size of your bankroll and make relatively small bets as a ratio of how many chips are on the table.

If you go to these two places and just watch a little bit on a friday or saturday night, you might find this to be the case. I'm not sure. But long story short, it's an Asian socializing thing I think that explains it.

Quote: Ahigh

I think a high percentage of mini-bac games in Vegas are at Gold Coast and at Palace Station.

Gold Coast has $10 tables, and Palace Station has $25 tables.

Even at these low limit tables, if you go, you will see a lot of Asian players who have $300 to $3000 stacks of chips.

I think part of the culture of playing Mini-Baccarat is to show off the size of your bankroll and make relatively small bets as a ratio of how many chips are on the table.

If you go to these two places and just watch a little bit on a friday or saturday night, you might find this to be the case. I'm not sure. But long story short, it's an Asian socializing thing I think that explains it.

I think that is it. Or you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

I think that is it. Or you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Evidently you snoozed thru the logic class at Mt. St. Joe's.

Quote: Buzzard

Evidently you snoozed thru the logic class at Mt. St. Joe's.

Great catholic school education. Would get in trouble with the Xaverian brothers if i snoozed so not much snoozing on my part.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

I think that is it. Or you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

LOL.

Look, I'm not Baccarat expert! You can trust that. But I don't know a single place that has more mini-bac tables than these two locations. Both these locations are near Chinatown. Chinese and/or Asian players define the culture of Baccarat players, not white guys like me. So I am absolutely not an authority.

Last time I checked, Gold Coast had 14 Mini Baccarat tables. I was there a few weeks ago and I watched people play for several hours (not playing myself) trying to learn what I could.

I've done the same at Palace Station. Mostly watching and trying to understand the mindset of the players. There are only a handful of other casinos that have more than 2 or 3 tables, and most of those have 4 or fewer. The large number of tables at Palace Station and Gold Coast dwarfs the number of tables (mini Bac) of any other place, especially as a ratio of the total number of table games that are mini Bac.

This is just what I personally observed.

At a full Baccarat table with $100 minimums, it seemed to me that there were more bold plays being made. But it could have just been my imagination.

But as far as the suggestion that I don't know what the hell I am talking about, I *do* know what I'm talking about, but I think I am being very specific about my very limited knowledge level and that these are just my own personal observations.

I will add that I have only played Baccarat once, and I played bold (for my normal bet levels) and I got my ass kicked! LOL.

Quote: poosmells

Can anyone explain to me why Mini Baccarat has the lowest hold percentage of most games?

It don't got the lowest... the lowest is Bingo. Now if you limit it to Table Games, Baccarat is 12.98 percent win rate and the Gaming Board don't say nuttin' 'bout any grainier information such as Downtown or Boulder or NLV or Nuttin'.

Mini-Bacc on the other hand has a Clark County average of 10.00 percent win rate and Downtown its only a 4.46 percent win rate with Boulder being a 12.58 percent win rate and the Strip being 9.81 per cent win rate. However, this is the Board's Annual Fiscal Year figures and if you look at just about anything else you will rarely see much difference geographically for MiniBacc.

Please note the above is Win Rate.

If you want Hold its: Hold % is equal to 1- the quantity (1-E) raised to the "S" power.

I have always thought of "Win" in terms of dollars and "Hold" in terms of percentage and used this equation:

Hold (as %) = Win (in $)/Drop (in $)

Am I thinking about this incorrectly? So what is "Win" when expressed as a %? I fear my algebraic math skills are coming to the surface and that might be embarrassing :-).

Back to the OP, the hold on Bacc is low as it is a low house edge game and player's can't make any strategic mistakes, so the game does play to its low built in house edge compared to even BJ with a lower built in edge, but player mistakes that take it well above Bacc.

Quote: Ahigh

it's an Asian socializing thing I think that explains it.

Somewhere, EvenBob is shaking his fist in the direction of this website and crying out, "Why could I never get away with making racist statements?"

Quote: Ahigh

Even at these low limit tables, if you go, you will see a lot of Asian players who have $300 to $3000 stacks of chips.

I think part of the culture of playing Mini-Baccarat is to show off the size of your bankroll and make relatively small bets as a ratio of how many chips are on the table.

If you go to these two places and just watch a little bit on a friday or saturday night, you might find this to be the case. I'm not sure. But long story short, it's an Asian socializing thing I think that explains it.

Normally I'd read this and wonder what the hell you were talking about, but damned if some guy didn't sit at the $10 minimum Let It Ride table Friday night and plunk down $1000 but only bet the minimum, and he kept rebuying reds and whites and building towers with them! They had to refill the rack while this guy had four structures erected in front of him of chips he wasn't betting with.

Double

Quote: Paradigm

Am I thinking about this incorrectly?

Yes.

If E is equal to the House Edge for a game such as 5.26% roulette and S is the number of weighted average sessions within a 24 hour period per player, then the formula to derive the Hold % is 1-(E) raised to the S.

A Table’s Hold is determined daily over a mix of players and unknown number of sessions per player per day. Some players buy in big and then wander away with chips to a different table or come back to the same table. This affects Drop since the Drop is at his first buy in when the cash went into the lockbox.

Quote: FleaStiff

S is the number of weighted average sessions within a 24 hour period per player, then the formula to derive the Hold % is 1-(E) raised to the S.

Flea you are teaching me something here and I appreciate the fact you are taking time to explain this to me (and hopefully others).

How does a property measure/determine what S is? I guess I am asking how does a property determine what a "weighted average player session" is for them to be able to count how many of them they have at a particular game in a 24 hour period? My apologies in advance if this obvious and I am just missing the concept.

That is the problem.

I'm lousy at math anyway.

There are certain measures that are over a period of time and certain that are at a particular point in time.
The house does not recall as accurately as a player how many sessions there have been and there are often quite a few players in the casino many of them wandering around from table to table with a stack of chips rather than buying in at each table they happen to go to.

Consider the example more fully set forth at the Vegas Made Easy site of Mr. Roulette playing three sessions in a day and losing exactly 5.26percent each time. Nothing wrong there. He buys in once. Loses exactly the "proper" amount according to the House Edge that he "should" lose and after all his wanderings his view is three sessions of 5.26 percent each but the casino's viewpoint is darn near three times that.

I get confused about the terms Drop, Win, Hold, etc. It would be so nice if everyone could buy in only at table, play only there and then cash in before he wandered off with some chips to be gambled at another table, but thats not the way casinos work. People wander around sometimes not coloring up at all. Drop is only known after the drop box is swapped out and counted, but the chips that were given in return for an original buy in are distributed around the casino at a variety of tables, games and pockets.

You may want to take a look at terminology for Next Shooter dot com as well.

I'm sure these places will explain things better than my famous 21 is what can get you arrested if you are counting on fingers and toes.

Quote: Ahigh

I was there a few weeks ago and I watched people play for several hours (not playing myself) trying to learn what I could.

I'm surprised security allowed you to stand and watch people for hours. So what did you learn? Most Asian players notice when they are being watched for your information. Same with GoGo dancers here in Bangkok. Watching them means only one thing, you want to *&^% them.

" Same with GoGo dancers here in Bangkok. Watching them means only one thing, you want to *&^% them. "

Speak for yourself. I am only interested in their interpretation of dance movements as is relates to Asian culture.

> the hold on Bacc is low.....
NO.
> as it is a low house edge game
Well, 1.06 percent on Bankers Hand I think... that is kind of low, but players can still make humungous mistakes such as making Tie Bets which means they are effectively increasing the House Edge.

>compared to even BJ with a lower built in edge, but player mistakes that take it well above Bacc.
True. BJ may be at an official 0.55 per cent house edge or something but player's often "know the secrets" and violate Basic Strategy in an atrocious manner thus raising the effective House Edge.

The latest Annual figures are 10.00 percent win rate for Baccarat and about 12 percent win rate for MiniBacc based on ALL casinos in Clark County. There are no separate categories relating to Baccarat so the few casinos that use Less than Full Sized Tables at what is often called "Midi-Baccarat" do not get separately reported, those figures are officially included in the Baccarat category with MiniBacc being the category for the small tables with only the dealer touching the cards. Therefore Midi-Baccarat is neither separately reported to the Gaming Board nor is it separately reported by the Gaming Board.

Quote: NokTang

I'm surprised security allowed you to stand and watch people for hours. So what did you learn? Most Asian players notice when they are being watched for your information. Same with GoGo dancers here in Bangkok. Watching them means only one thing, you want to *&^% them.

You're surprised? Here's how I did it: I came to a $25 minimum bet Baccarat table that had three other people on it and several empty places to sit. I had a stack of $775 (seven blacks and three green chips).

I told the dealer "I have never played this game and I just want to watch for a while, is that okay?"

The dealer said "no problem" and smiled at me.

The three other Asians at the table, as you so politely informed me, noticed that I had sat down. I didn't think this was unusual that they noticed me.

I watched a few hands, and I told the other players, "I hope you don't mind me not playing, I just want to learn how this game works."

Then I started drawing my big road and watching some more. I asked the Asian girl next to me if she could help me draw the banker symbol. I knew how to draw player, but forgot banker (not for my big road just trying to learn more).

I was noticing how they took care of the ties on their big road. The girl was writing the number in the circle for a tie. There weren't two ties in a row, so I didn't see what they did there.

I talked to each and every other person at the table and carried on conversations. They all generally spoke to each other in Chinese, but they spoke to me in English.

They all won pretty good and had a fun time. Nobody at all had a problem with me watching.

I don't know why you would be surprised I could do this. I generally have absolutely no problems at all enjoying myself in a casino environment whether I am betting or not. And if someone is giving me a hard time, it's because they KNOW THAT I LIKE IT .. and they like giving me a hard time. If some dealer that doesn't know me gives me shit, they usually end up regretting it.

I'm not a Baccarat player at all, but I like to learn new stuff. I think some of the things I learn about Asians who play Baccarat is very interesting really. But without knowing Chinese, I can't figure out a whole lot really. But I know so little, there is plenty to learn without knowing any Chinese.

There is never a problem with being a newbie, particularly a newbie with money.
If other players don't like it, the casino will usually correct their attitude.
You did nothing rude or excessive.
You spoke in English which is more than the other players usually do.

Its not unusual for a big money winner to become a leader in Baccarat and have other players follow his betting decisions.
The non-English chatter offends me but its not collusion because no one cares how the bets are distributed. It would be presumptive collusion to have such chatter at a poker table but at Baccarat who cares what they are chattering about.

Sometimes the orientals will leave but its often because they assume the newbie will be slowing things down.

Quote: Ahigh

If some dealer that doesn't know me gives me shit, they usually end up regretting it.

.

Reminds me of a guy I saw down on the sidewalk in front of the "Western"(I think that the name, downtown casino at the time with low min wagering) telling the security guys how he was going to kick the shit out of them etc. as he was being handcuffed face on said sidewalk spread eagle. I almost felt sorry for him as he was out numbered and drunk as a skunk.

And more to the point, most Asians don't like westerners, at least over here. Thai's aren't exactly "Asians" but when I see Koreans, Japanese, and especially Chinese, they want nothing to do with me be it a casino or brothel. We are I think bad luck to them.

Quote: Ahigh

LOL.

Look, I'm not Baccarat expert! You can trust that. But I don't know a single place that has more mini-bac tables than these two locations. Both these locations are near Chinatown. Chinese and/or Asian players define the culture of Baccarat players, not white guys like me. So I am absolutely not an authority.

Last time I checked, Gold Coast had 14 Mini Baccarat tables. I was there a few weeks ago and I watched people play for several hours (not playing myself) trying to learn what I could.

This helps explain why I was able to play electronic Sic Bo for as cheap as a quarter there! I had a good time by myself as my g/f looked at me like I was a crazy person. It's more fun than roulette at least. :p

Quote: NokTang

And more to the point, most Asians don't like westerners, at least over here.

I find the exact opposite to be true in Vegas.

Quote: NokTang

Reminds me of a guy I saw down on the sidewalk in front of the "Western"(I think that the name, downtown casino at the time with low min wagering) telling the security guys how he was going to kick the shit out of them etc. as he was being handcuffed face on said sidewalk spread eagle. I almost felt sorry for him as he was out numbered and drunk as a skunk.

And more to the point, most Asians don't like westerners, at least over here. Thai's aren't exactly "Asians" but when I see Koreans, Japanese, and especially Chinese, they want nothing to do with me be it a casino or brothel. We are I think bad luck to them.

Your description of the Western brings back a number of wonderful memories of good times down town. Thank you.