UTH at CET for COMPS
Quote: PensiveGerbilDoes CET reward UTH plays as generously as slot machine play?
Highly doubt this statement. CET is pretty notorious for shorting table games from what I read.
No.Quote: PensiveGerbilDoes CET reward UTH plays as generously as slot machine play?
Quote: teddysNo.
How do you know?
How do they determine average bet size for UTH?
Does UTH play receive more Tier points than roulette?
Quote: teddysIf you play UTH, play anywhere except Harrah's. They don't rate ANY table game well for points. MGM will probably give you something, and Stations are good, too.
Harrah's has offered me comps (e.g., free rooms, food credit, free play) worth much more than the redemption value of the "points" I earned; the value of my comps has also exceeded the expected loss of my table games bets. Therefore, I intend to gamble and spend money only in their casinos while in Vegas.
I am inquiring about the "points" that CET gives for UTH play because I believe their extra comp offers (e.g., for free rooms) have some correlation with points earned.
Quote: PensiveGerbilHarrah's has offered me comps (e.g., free rooms, food credit, free play) worth much more than the redemption value of the "points" I earned; the value of my comps has also exceeded the expected loss of my table games bets. Therefore, I intend to gamble and spend money only in their casinos while in Vegas.
I am inquiring about the "points" that CET gives for UTH play because I believe their extra comp offers (e.g., for free rooms) have some correlation with points earned.
This is generally true with any property, not just CET. Rewards Credits are the most flexible comp, and are given only sparingly. What we are saying is, for the same amount of "theoretical loss", the slot player is generally treated better at CET than a table game player.
If you plan to play UTH at a CET property no matter what, I'm not totally sure what info youre trying to get at. If CET doesn't comp UTH well, would you plan to play another game instead?
Oh and example of a CET comp that exceeds your expected loss? Generally speaking, this doesn't happen. Are you sure this isn't a result of your play building up? I finally got my first mailer of the year after 2500 Tier Points...lol
Quote: tringlomane
If you plan to play UTH at a CET property no matter what, I'm not totally sure what info youre trying to get at. If CET doesn't comp UTH well, would you plan to play another game instead?
Yes.
Like it or not, the pit bosses really dont pay much attention to, nor provide many Tier Credits for carnival games. And at the end of the day, Tier Credits equal your ADT, which is all that matters in the Caesars world.
Im 7 Stars and at the end of a trip I checked with my host and found out that hours of play at craps were never recorded. And when they were recorded "average bets" were never more than what my initial bets were. In other words, pressing bets rarely helped any rating.
What you could do is at the start of your table game play, ask the floorman on duty how he is going to rate your play, and then at the end of the session ask to see how he rated you in the computer. In other words, don't assume anything.
Quote: AlanMendelsonHere's the problem with Caesars/Harrahs Total Rewards for table players: the entire rating system is arbitrary. No one knows what the ratings are, especially when it comes to "bonus rewards points." And, your entire rating depends on a floorman who may or may not be paying attention.
Im 7 Stars and at the end of a trip I checked with my host and found out that hours of play at craps were never recorded. And when they were recorded "average bets" were never more than what my initial bets were. In other words, pressing bets rarely helped any rating.
What you could do is at the start of your table game play, ask the floorman on duty how he is going to rate your play, and then at the end of the session ask to see how he rated you in the computer. In other words, don't assume anything.
I agree with you regarding the human error element, but I do not think the rating system is arbitrary. Once the floorman enters your average bet size and duration of play into the computer, it should yield a standard number of Tier Credits for the particular game played (though for certain games like craps, the types of bets made would also matter). So if someone plays a UTH session and subsequently learns their rated bet size, duration of play, and Tier Points earned, we may be able to compare UTH to other games.
Regarding your suggestion to ask the floorman to show you how he rated you in the computer, could the same information be obtained from a Total Rewards clerk?
Quote: PensiveGerbilSo if someone plays a UTH session and subsequently learns their rated bet size, duration of play, and Tier Points earned, we may be able to compare UTH to other games.
I agree with this statement, but I've unfortunately have never played UTH at a CET property to give any real data on this. The most I know is I got about 6 Tier pts for playing 30 minutes of $10/hand blackjack...lol And also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Tier point rate might slowly increase with longer sessions. I have no proof to back that up though. I have also read that CET becomes more generous with offers when you begin earning 100+ Tier per gaming day, which means I get virtually nothing. :(
Quote: teddysIf you play UTH, play anywhere except Harrah's. They don't rate ANY table game well for points. MGM will probably give you something, and Stations are good, too.
I can confirm that MGM properties in Vegas will rate you at 3x your ante + 1x your trips bet. Points are accrued at a rate of 550 pts / $25 / hr. They recently revamped their comp system, but I just got back from there and I can confirm that points are still earned at the same rate. They stopped publishing the details, but I paid attention to the points I got on the trip and it adds up. I also seemed to get about $1 in express comps per $25/hr.
So, if you bet green and dont bet trips, you will get rated at $75/hand. So you will accrue 1650 pts and $3 in express comps per hr. 200k pts in a year gets you platinum status.
$100/hand for 4hrs/day should get you a host and a free room (maybe need closer to $150 at the nicer properties like Aria and Bellagio; maybe less at the crappier ones)
So, adding this all up... UTH at a full table is a slow game. Maybe 25 hands / hr? If you play properly (buy Grossjean's strategy card) the HE is about 2.3% of the ante. (Note that the HE on trips is 3.5% and it only gets you 1/3 the rating!!) Say you play $50 on ante and blind for 3 hrs. That's about 75 hands. Your EV is about -1.7 bets, ie, -$85. In exchange for that $85, you have accrued 3 hrs at $150/hand rating. That is enough to make your host happy about comping you a room, and you also pick up $18 in express comps and 9900 tier points. Do this 20 days in a year and you are platinum. Furthermore, dealer errors in this game are not uncommon. If a dealer pays your ante instead of pushing it once every hour and a half, you are in slight positive EV territory.
If you want to stay at a nice place like the aria, you probably need a 4th hour at that $150/hand level.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI can confirm that MGM properties in Vegas will rate you at 3x your ante + 1x your trips bet. Points are accrued at a rate of 550 pts / $25 / hr. They recently revamped their comp system, but I just got back from there and I can confirm that points are still earned at the same rate. They stopped publishing the details, but I paid attention to the points I got on the trip and it adds up. I also seemed to get about $1 in express comps per $25/hr.
So, if you bet green and dont bet trips, you will get rated at $75/hand. So you will accrue 1650 pts and $3 in express comps per hr. 200k pts in a year gets you platinum status.
$100/hand for 4hrs/day should get you a host and a free room (maybe need closer to $150 at the nicer properties like Aria and Bellagio; maybe less at the crappier ones)
So, adding this all up... UTH at a full table is a slow game. Maybe 25 hands / hr? If you play properly (buy Grossjean's strategy card) the HE is about 2.3% of the ante. (Note that the HE on trips is 3.5% and it only gets you 1/3 the rating!!) Say you play $50 on ante and blind for 3 hrs. That's about 75 hands. Your EV is about -1.7 bets, ie, -$85. In exchange for that $85, you have accrued 3 hrs at $150/hand rating. That is enough to make your host happy about comping you a room, and you also pick up $18 in express comps and 9900 tier points. Do this 20 days in a year and you are platinum. Furthermore, dealer errors in this game are not uncommon. If a dealer pays your ante instead of pushing it once every hour and a half, you are in slight positive EV territory.
Hi Axiom,
Your post on my other thread alerted me to the potential of UTH. Thanks. I am not surprised that MGM rates average bet size based on the Ante and Trips bets, ignoring Play bets. The fact that the ante bet is weighted more heavily than the trips bet reflects the fact that the casino wins a greater percentage of the money bet on the Ante and Blind versus Trips due to player errors.
I'm do not know why the Wizard describes the HE with skilled play as 2.3% of the Ante bet, since players cannot receive a hand without also making an equal sized Blind bet. Therefore, the HE is really 1.15% of the required initial bets.
Since I am a relatively low roller who wants free rooms, I will remain loyal to CET as long as they keep the comps coming. I hope someone can report the Total Rewards points/credits received for UTH play. Within the MGM system, any idea how the comp points awarded for UTH compares to Roulette or other games?
Quote: PensiveGerbilHi Axiom,
Your post on my other thread alerted me to the potential of UTH. Thanks. I am not surprised that MGM rates average bet size based on the Ante and Trips bets, ignoring Play bets. The fact that the ante bet is weighted more heavily than the trips bet reflects the fact that the casino wins a greater percentage of the money bet on the Ante and Blind versus Trips due to player errors.
I'm do not know why the Wizard describes the HE with skilled play as 2.3% of the Ante bet, since players cannot receive a hand without also making an equal sized Blind bet. Therefore, the HE is really 1.15% of the required initial bets.
Since I am a relatively low roller who wants free rooms, I will remain loyal to CET as long as they keep the comps coming. I hope someone can report the Total Rewards points/credits received for UTH play. Within the MGM system, any idea how the comp points awarded for UTH compares to Roulette or other games?
If MGM's Trips paytable is still 8-7-4 (FH, Flush, Straight), I agree with this, and probably suggests they have roughly a 10% edge of an ante on the main game.
He describes the house edge as 2.2% of the Ante bet out of tradition mainly.
Quote: PensiveGerbilHi Axiom,
Your post on my other thread alerted me to the potential of UTH. Thanks. I am not surprised that MGM rates average bet size based on the Ante and Trips bets, ignoring Play bets. The fact that the ante bet is weighted more heavily than the trips bet reflects the fact that the casino wins a greater percentage of the money bet on the Ante and Blind versus Trips due to player errors.
Yes, exactly. That's what makes it so great for "skilled" players... they can't really lower the comps without screwing over (and pissing off) all their good customers.
Quote: PensiveGerbilI'm do not know why the Wizard describes the HE with skilled play as 2.3% of the Ante bet, since players cannot receive a hand without also making an equal sized Blind bet. Therefore, the HE is really 1.15% of the required initial bets.
Sure, but this is just semantics. It doesn't really matter how you look at it.
Quote: PensiveGerbilSince I am a relatively low roller who wants free rooms, I will remain loyal to CET as long as they keep the comps coming. I hope someone can report the Total Rewards points/credits received for UTH play.
Have you considered just asking? I found out this information by asking at MGM. They are very open with the information. I asked one guy at the MGM grand and he explained it to me, along with the multiplier they use for other games. I asked someone at another MGM property to see if they were consistent, and they were.
Furthermore, if you go to the players desk, they will tell you that you have been rated at an average of $X for Y hands/hr (again, at least, they do at the MGM). If you check your points total before and after, you should be able to figure this out.
Quote: PensiveGerbilWithin the MGM system, any idea how the comp points awarded for UTH compares to Roulette or other games?
I don't play Roulette, but I can can still ask about it the next time I am there, if you'd like. Basically, at the MGM, they have a multiplier for every game. The pit boss figures out your average bet, and they multiply it by the multiplier, and then you get the 550 pts and $1 express comps for every $25 of bet * hours played. So, the only thing that you need to know is the multiplier for your game of choice and you have all the information you need. For blackjack it is 1, and for UTH it is 3x ante + 1x trips. I know that the pit boss told me the multiplier for Mississippi Stud but I don't remember it -- I think it was 2x ante + 1x 3CP side bet, but I might be wrong (note that with optimal play the HE is a little under 5% of ante so this is nowhere near as good as UTH for comps)
In short, if you want to know, just ask!
Quote: PensiveGerbilI agree with you regarding the human error element, but I do not think the rating system is arbitrary. Once the floorman enters your average bet size and duration of play into the computer, it should yield a standard number of Tier Credits for the particular game played (though for certain games like craps, the types of bets made would also matter). So if someone plays a UTH session and subsequently learns their rated bet size, duration of play, and Tier Points earned, we may be able to compare UTH to other games.
Regarding your suggestion to ask the floorman to show you how he rated you in the computer, could the same information be obtained from a Total Rewards clerk?
It is "arbitrary" because of what the floorman "sees" your average bet as. He may not notice when you press, and then he may not notice when you reduce. He might not keep track of special bets you make -- for example, when you bet a hardway when you don't normally bet the hardways.
In craps, Caesars has a special "rating" for different types of bets at craps. There are three levels:
Expert -- doesn't mean you're an expert, it means you stick to the low HA bets such as pass and come and placing inside numbers
then there is some mid range name if you bet hard ways and outside numbers
and then some other name if you bet a lot on the field and horn and hop
And how do you get clumped into one of those categories? It's arbitray.
You ask about checking your rating with a TR Clerk -- well by then it's too late. Once it's in, it's in.
I mentioned that trip when I played hours of craps that were not recorded and my average bet was only my basic bet -- after I mentioned it to my host (who showed me on the computer) nothing could be done.
This is important stuff. My average trip offers for free play, gifts, shopping, etc, was recently cut from $2,500 to $850 because my recent "play" doesn't justify higher amounts. I admit I've been lax checking my play at craps. I should know better.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice...Basically, at the MGM, they have a multiplier for every game. The pit boss figures out your average bet, and they multiply it by the multiplier, and then you get the 550 pts and $1 express comps for every $25 of bet * hours played. So, the only thing that you need to know is the multiplier for your game of choice and you have all the information you need. For blackjack it is 1, and for UTH it is 3x ante + 1x trips. I know that the pit boss told me the multiplier for Mississippi Stud but I don't remember it -- I think it was 2x ante + 1x 3CP side bet, but I might be wrong (note that with optimal play the HE is a little under 5% of ante so this is nowhere near as good as UTH for comps)
In short, if you want to know, just ask!
You appear to be saying that a blackjack player who bets $75 per hand will receive the same MGM comps points as a UTH player who makes a $25 Ante bet and a $25 Blind bet. If the house edge of UTH were three times the HE of blackjack, then the hands played per hour would need to be half as many as blackjack in order to realize the same comp credits per unit of expected loss. How do the hands per hour of UTH compare to blackjack?
I guess asking the Total Rewards clerks wouldn't hurt. :)
Quote: AlanMendelsonIt is "arbitrary" because of what the floorman "sees" your average bet as. He may not notice when you press, and then he may not notice when you reduce. He might not keep track of special bets you make -- for example, when you bet a hardway when you don't normally bet the hardways.
In craps, Caesars has a special "rating" for different types of bets at craps. There are three levels:
Expert -- doesn't mean you're an expert, it means you stick to the low HA bets such as pass and come and placing inside numbers
then there is some mid range name if you bet hard ways and outside numbers
and then some other name if you bet a lot on the field and horn and hop
And how do you get clumped into one of those categories? It's arbitray.
You ask about checking your rating with a TR Clerk -- well by then it's too late. Once it's in, it's in.
I mentioned that trip when I played hours of craps that were not recorded and my average bet was only my basic bet -- after I mentioned it to my host (who showed me on the computer) nothing could be done.
This is important stuff. My average trip offers for free play, gifts, shopping, etc, was recently cut from $2,500 to $850 because my recent "play" doesn't justify higher amounts. I admit I've been lax checking my play at craps. I should know better.
I knew that an hour of craps play with a rated average bet size of $100 would earn 54, 135, or 300 base TR points depending on the types of bets made. I did not know that all of your bets would be clumped together at one rating level depending on whether they considered your play to be Expert, Average, or Suckeriffic! If this is so, it may be helpful to make a few sucker bets to lower their opinion of your play.
Are you sure that placing the inside numbers is considered Expert rather than Average? These bets have a considerably higher HE than Pass/Don't Pass bets that are backed up with maximum odds.
Are you sure the floorman is responsible for evaluating your play rather than the boxman or dealers? When I played at Harrah's, I recall only one floorman drifting between 4 craps tables, each of which averaged 6-10 players who also drifted in and out.
Thanks for the advice about checking my rating with the floorman. It feels a bit pushy to me, but I probably need to be less timid!
Quote: PensiveGerbilYou appear to be saying that a blackjack player who bets $75 per hand will receive the same MGM comps points as a UTH player who makes a $25 Ante bet and a $25 Blind bet. If the house edge of UTH were three times the HE of blackjack, then the hands played per hour would need to be half as many as blackjack in order to realize the same comp credits per unit of expected loss.
Well, UTH is 2.3% the ante. The MGM Grand has a decent double-deck game with about a 0.25% house edge against basic strategy (including the cut card effect). It is always at least $100 minimum though, sometimes $200 if they are very busy or a player asks for it to be raised (they also have the same game in the mansion, but the limits are always higher there). I think NYNY has the same game for $50 minimums in their high limit area. Not sure about other MGM properties. Assuming you are comfortable playing at this level, that is 1/9 the HE, so after the multiplier we are looking at 3x the hands for them to be equivalent.
Quote: PensiveGerbilHow do the hands per hour of UTH compare to blackjack?
I guess asking the Total Rewards clerks wouldn't hurt. :)
UTH is a lot slower, especially at a full table. I've never counted but I would suspect that it's about 3x as many hands in BJ as in UTH, so you could play either one and get the same level of comps for the same expected loss. But, the difference is, you can play UTH for $10 blind & ante (and still get rated since it rates at $30, above the $25 minimum), whereas you would have to play in the bigger blackjack games to get that good of a game (the lower limit games are all much, much worse -- the best you can do is a 3:2 H17 game from a 6-deck shoe, which has a HE in the range of 0.6% or 0.7% I think).
So, if you are playing bigger, you can play either or both for about the same effect, but, if you are not comfortable betting that much I think you should stick to UTH to maximize your comps / losses.
Two words of warning: (1) many of the UTH games have max payouts on the blind bet. It is $75k at the MGM Grand. Betting so much that you won't get a full pay on a royal significantly adds to the house edge. With a payout of 500x the blind, getting paid on the royal is a significant part of your payout. Royals in a 7-card game are (ballpark, back of the envelope calculation) about 1 in 32,500 hands, excluding the "community royal" where you won't beat the dealer so you won't get paid. At a 500x pay, that is worth about 1.5% in EV.
This brings me to point (2) -- Between winning royals, the house edge is closer to 3.8% of your ante bet. Assuming 25 hands per hour, you will see one of those winning royals once ever 6500 hours. If you go to Vegas once a month for 3 days and play 5 hours / day, that is once every 36 years on average. Of course the variance is large too; you might not get one in your lifetime. On the other hand, you might get lucky and get 2 in a year. 2.3% is the correct "long term" answer, but, the long term is very very long. The casino will see wins at around 2.3% if everyone plays perfectly, but what actually happens is that a few lucky players hit a royal or two and win lots of money, and everyone else loses about 3.8% on average. Most people are in the 3.8% group, so you should be comfortable with that possibility, even over several years (or decades) of play.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWell, UTH is 2.3% the ante. The MGM Grand has a decent double-deck game with about a 0.25% house edge against basic strategy (including the cut card effect). It is always at least $100 minimum though, sometimes $200 if they are very busy or a player asks for it to be raised (they also have the same game in the mansion, but the limits are always higher there). I think NYNY has the same game for $50 minimums in their high limit area. Not sure about other MGM properties. Assuming you are comfortable playing at this level, that is 1/9 the HE, so after the multiplier we are looking at 3x the hands for them to be equivalent.
Actually, I think the numbers are even more favorable for UTH. I believe the multi-deck $25 blackjack games at CET properties have a HE of about 0.55% (they permit surrender). And remember that the HE of UTH is about 1.15% of the Ante and Blinds bets. The $75 blackjack bettor can expect to lose $0.4125 per hand, while the UTH player who makes a $25 ante bet and a $25 blind bet can expect to lose $0.575 Therefore, the number of UTH hands played per hour would only need to be about 40% less than blackjack to realize the same comp credits per unit of expected loss.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThis brings me to point (2) -- Between winning royals, the house edge is closer to 3.8% of your ante bet. Assuming 25 hands per hour, you will see one of those winning royals once ever 6500 hours. If you go to Vegas once a month for 3 days and play 5 hours / day, that is once every 36 years on average. Of course the variance is large too; you might not get one in your lifetime. On the other hand, you might get lucky and get 2 in a year. 2.3% is the correct "long term" answer, but, the long term is very very long. The casino will see wins at around 2.3% if everyone plays perfectly, but what actually happens is that a few lucky players hit a royal or two and win lots of money, and everyone else loses about 3.8% on average. Most people are in the 3.8% group, so you should be comfortable with that possibility, even over several years (or decades) of play.
Very good point. I was wondering what the HE was between hitting royals! Of course, hitting more than your share of straight flushes would help a lot. Are there any UTH games in Vegas that have a less top-heavy payout schedule for the Blind bet? I think UTH would be more popular if the "trips" bet was mandatory and the "blind" bet was an optional bonus bet.
Quote: PensiveGerbilI think UTH would be more popular if the "trips" bet was mandatory and the "blind" bet was an optional bonus bet.
I'll say it would be popular. Your edge would be enormous. Even the terrible players would make money.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'll say it would be popular. Your edge would be enormous. Even the terrible players would make money.
Haha...I didn't really think that through. I just think the high variance, high potential payout bet (Blind) should be optional so customers don't lose their money (on the mandatory bets) quite so quickly.
