Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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September 6th, 2012 at 2:44:43 PM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP

For someone who practices AP (but certainly not for a living, only recreationally), I don't at all find it galling that casino's implement countermeasures. In many cases I think it's foolish as I believe they will end up costing themselves more money than they would have lost, but if they choose to, it's their call to make business decisions.

But like many others, I cannot accept labeling individuals who play within the legal confines of the game as cheaters or theives. I have always been interested in finding the correct LEGAL plays to get the house edge to a minimum or even turn it around, and if the casino offers such a game, I don't have any moral reservation about taking advantage of it.


Your view is fine, but remember, it is not the State's "nominally legal" rules that is considered here, but the house's game protection rules of what it acceptable and what is out-of-bounds, that sets the house's action and point of view.

What an AP views himself as, and what a pit boss views him as, may be two entirely different things in terms of "acceptability." I'm sure pit bosses don't care what AP players call him, and Lord Knows casino operators have been called "parasites," "cheap bastards," "money-grubbers," - as well as "no good, lying, cheating, conniving, low-life, sacks of stinkin' money-grubbing sh-ts who should be beaten to death with metal pipes in a dark alleyway..." yada, yada, yada.

As far as AP players are concerned, either accept how you are viewed by the side you actually you think even worse about, and say even worse about them, or change your pasttime. I mean - why in the world would you even care what casino operators may view you as, IF you're going to AP...it can't be a "but I want them to LIKE me!" kind of desire....

This is aside from AP saying the very same things about the casino operators. We've heard this here.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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September 6th, 2012 at 3:24:11 PM permalink
" As far as AP players are concerned, either accept how you are viewed by the side you actually you think even worse about, and say even worse about them, or change your pasttime. "

Who said I actually think worse about them ? I just consider the source and let it go. As do many who read your and my postings.
Boney526
Boney526
Joined: Sep 25, 2011
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September 6th, 2012 at 3:27:36 PM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP

For someone who practices AP (but certainly not for a living, only recreationally), I don't at all find it galling that casino's implement countermeasures. In many cases I think it's foolish as I believe they will end up costing themselves more money than they would have lost, but if they choose to, it's their call to make business decisions.

But like many others, I cannot accept labeling individuals who play within the legal confines of the game as cheaters or theives. I have always been interested in finding the correct LEGAL plays to get the house edge to a minimum or even turn it around, and if the casino offers such a game, I don't have any moral reservation about taking advantage of it.



Anyone can call it what you like. I do seek Advantage Plays, although not very actively. There's enough of them in casinos. I'm not properly bankrolled nor do I care to go out of my way to do things like hole card, since that seems a little ridiculous. I also wouldn't want to cost some new dealer their job over a few dollars in EV.

Most of my AP is poker, and even that is hard to confirm as AP, as I could have just gotten lucky so far and never busted with my (very tiny) bankroll.

The point is - I don't think AP is immoral, so long as you don't go to extreme lengths to bend the rules while potentially costing someone their job. Count cards? Fine. (I can see why casinos would prefer to expel counters, but honestly most counters aren't a serious threat) Pretend to be drunk so you can lean over and take a peek at the hole card? Well.... good luck getting away with that. Even if you did, I feel it'd be pretty shameful.

I don't see it as theft. It's still a game of chance, that you may be playing exceptionally well. As far Dan's assumption that it's against the rules, I'd say I only agree 50/50. There is no rule or regulation against counting anywhere that I know of, however casinos should reserve the right to bar or flat bet you. Essentially, if they flat bet you, the rules they set FOR YOU are to prevent you from counting. If they bar you, you simply can't play. So if you get away with it, it's not theft, as the casino can simply stop dealing to you if they prefer. (Except in AC)
Boney526
Boney526
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September 6th, 2012 at 3:31:21 PM permalink
I basically agree with Dan's last statement. I do not generally gamble if it's not AP, so my options are limited as a result, generally to games casinos don't mind AP in (even if they'd prefer sub-optimal play). Video Poker, Live Poker, and (hopefully after finding some more information) beatable slots.

I mainly play for fun, but I prefer having games with an edge, so that hopefully there's some small benefit if variance doesn't wipe me out. But I'd rather be playing something I won't get barred for then something I will, given the choice.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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September 6th, 2012 at 3:34:17 PM permalink
Hey. they only bar you from BJ, No big deal !
MidwestAP
MidwestAP
Joined: Feb 19, 2012
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September 6th, 2012 at 3:49:23 PM permalink
Dan - I guess I look at it a little different. I don't like the social implication of being called a cheat or a theif by anyone as I am not even close by any legal definition. At the same time, I don't hold any resentment to casino operators who back off players, use CSM's, use poor penetration, or other techniques to counter the very skilled player. If that's the business decision, it's their business to run as they see fit, as long it doesn't violate any laws (just as the card counters can do)

You've compared this to individuals who haven't 'paid the fee' for services like movies, transit, etc. I don't think that's a fair comparison. In those industries there is a stated fee for a service ($10 per movie ticket, etc.) In the gaming industry, the casino's use the lure of 'winning money' as the bait to bring people in. And on some games (like blackjack) the 'fee', known as house edge, varies based on the skill of the player. Expecting players to play a game of skill, but only use their skills up to a certain point, while at the same time advertising the opportunity to 'win big' seems hypocritical. I'd rather have the house just tell me that my skill exceeds their ability to make money in the long term, and tell me I can't play BJ anymore. I'd hold nothing against them as that seems like a sound business decision, and I'd hope they would hold nothing against me in case I had occasion to visit again for other activities.

Compare this to a carnival (not the casino carnival games). There is a game where if an individual can toss a softball into a bushel basket, they win a large stuffed animal. For the sake of this comparison, let's assume the cost of the stuffed animal exceeds the fee to play this game. I wouldn't call the few individuals who can 'beat the game' with legal throws as cheaters or theives, only as very skilled players. At the same time the carnival has the right to limit their wins or stop them from playing if they find themselves at a disadvantage.

In both business situations, the operators are luring in customers with the opportunity to go home with something in greater value than what they came with. Both offer games of skill. And in both cases, I can't fault a skilled player for taking legal advantage of it, and don't fault the business from trying to use legal game protection.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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September 6th, 2012 at 4:37:52 PM permalink
Helped a buddy run a stall at Timonium State Fair. Nothing like letting some dufus win ( with a pretty girlfriend as a bonus ) win and walk around while people asked him where he won it. And if a chump honestly won, hooray for him. It is a game of skill. Not like most other carnie games.
jc2286
jc2286
Joined: Apr 15, 2011
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September 7th, 2012 at 7:07:18 AM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP

Dan - I guess I look at it a little different. I don't like the social implication of being called a cheat or a theif by anyone as I am not even close by any legal definition. At the same time, I don't hold any resentment to casino operators who back off players, use CSM's, use poor penetration, or other techniques to counter the very skilled player. If that's the business decision, it's their business to run as they see fit, as long it doesn't violate any laws (just as the card counters can do)

You've compared this to individuals who haven't 'paid the fee' for services like movies, transit, etc. I don't think that's a fair comparison. In those industries there is a stated fee for a service ($10 per movie ticket, etc.) In the gaming industry, the casino's use the lure of 'winning money' as the bait to bring people in. And on some games (like blackjack) the 'fee', known as house edge, varies based on the skill of the player. Expecting players to play a game of skill, but only use their skills up to a certain point, while at the same time advertising the opportunity to 'win big' seems hypocritical. I'd rather have the house just tell me that my skill exceeds their ability to make money in the long term, and tell me I can't play BJ anymore. I'd hold nothing against them as that seems like a sound business decision, and I'd hope they would hold nothing against me in case I had occasion to visit again for other activities.

Compare this to a carnival (not the casino carnival games). There is a game where if an individual can toss a softball into a bushel basket, they win a large stuffed animal. For the sake of this comparison, let's assume the cost of the stuffed animal exceeds the fee to play this game. I wouldn't call the few individuals who can 'beat the game' with legal throws as cheaters or theives, only as very skilled players. At the same time the carnival has the right to limit their wins or stop them from playing if they find themselves at a disadvantage.

In both business situations, the operators are luring in customers with the opportunity to go home with something in greater value than what they came with. Both offer games of skill. And in both cases, I can't fault a skilled player for taking legal advantage of it, and don't fault the business from trying to use legal game protection.



That carnival analogy is pretty good.
bigpete88
bigpete88
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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September 7th, 2012 at 10:20:06 AM permalink
In Nevada, The Carnival (Casino) would have the right to not allow under the Trespassing Act. In New Jersey, the Carnival (Casino) would have to disallow everyone or make the bushel basket smaller or tilt it to a disadvantage to ALL.

My whole beef in Nevada is they offer a game to the public and do not allow some players and allow others.

It would fair to all if they made the game unbeatable and the squares would still play. Pay even money on blackjack. Make it fair for all.

Just like slots with a 5% hold. Square bet for entertainment or whatever they think....ha ha ha
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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September 7th, 2012 at 11:06:33 AM permalink
Quote: bigpete88

... Pay even money on blackjack.

Carefull what you wish for.

25¢ ante 3:2 Blackjack seems to be gaining a stronghold. Cetainly 6:5 is doing well. Ugh.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁

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