Warped Roulette, Card Counting or any other Advantage Play...is it fair?
Hey,the state gave them the right to accept bets in the first place. I have several friends who did time for not having
been granted that same right.
Quote: buzzpaff" The state violates your freedom of contract by forcing you to enter it. "
Hey,the state gave them the right to accept bets in the first place. I have several friends who did time for not having
been granted that same right.
No, the state didn't give them any rights. It simply only allows some people the ability to exercise the rights that everyone has. That is also trampling on the freedom of contract.
The solution to overgovernmentalisation isn't more government rules.
Quote: buzzpaff" The state violates your freedom of contract by forcing you to enter it. "
Hey,the state gave them the right to accept bets in the first place. I have several friends who did time for not having
been granted that same right.
They didn't grant anyone any rights. That's the wrong way of looking at rights.
Rather, the State (rather wrongly, IMO) took that right away from everybody, except those they permit to do so. Personally, I don't think government should have to give permits for activities involving ones' own property.
Tomato or Tamato.
Quote: Boney526Rather, the State (rather wrongly, IMO) took that right away from everybody, except those they permit to do so.
Even with all the regulation of gambling and the huge potential loss to the casinos if they're caught swindling someone people still like to believe the casinos are cheating them. Can you imagine how this line of thinking would be strengthen if there was no regulation and anyone was able to offer games of chance for money? Not only would more people believe it was happening, it would be happening!
I found less cheating in games in Colorado before gambling was legalized. Collusion was much less and no proof was needed.
Cheaters were dealt with harshly, to say the least !
Also, you guys sure are ruthless to poor Paigowdan. He needs someone to help defend him. :)
-Keyser
Dan is capable of defending himself. The insane are capable of great feats of strength.
Quote: buzzpaff" Also, you guys sure are ruthless to poor Paigowdan. He needs someone to help defend him. :) "
Dan is capable of defending himself. The insane are capable of great feats of strength.
And, quite in character, the airing of grievances.
Just unseen rule breakers LOL
Quote: KeyserIf a slot machine hits a jackpot, sorry, it's a malfunction.
Every story I've heard like this involved a "jackpot" that wasn't on the pay table.
Quote: bbvk05Yeah, I am with you on all of this. And I am not sure if the alcohol is given to impair judgment or more with the goal of keeping your ass planted in the gaming area. They don't serve enough or strong enough to get wasted fast enough. It's a simple loss-leader, everyone does it.
While I don't think it's as sinister as some are making it out to be, they don't want anyone piss-drunk.
1. It's bad PR to look too much like they're taking advantage.
2. Players who realize they're drunk might stop gambling.
3. A player too obviously drunk might well lose the casino more than they'll make it.
Quote: MonkeyMonkeyEven with all the regulation of gambling and the huge potential loss to the casinos if they're caught swindling someone people still like to believe the casinos are cheating them. Can you imagine how this line of thinking would be strengthen if there was no regulation and anyone was able to offer games of chance for money? Not only would more people believe it was happening, it would be happening!
Why would you think that?
I certainly disagree. I don't need regulations to play in a poker game with friends. I trust them not to cheat, but verify. If they do cheat, they aren't going to be allowed to play.
What's the difference? Well quite simply, if there wasn't a permit system, there would be more competition. It's harder to get away with cheating your customers, when they can go next door. (Figure of speech, when they can go to another "house"). So I'd argue that with less regulations, and no necessary permits, it would be harder to get away with cheating.
Quote: buzzpaff" Rather, the State (rather wrongly, IMO) took that right away from everybody, except those they permit to do so"
Tomato or Tamato.
Not really.
There's a world of difference. Government doesn't create rights. And it shouldn't be taking them away.
It's a huge difference between thinking that government gives you your rights (EG: the statement that they give Casinos the right to take our bet) and that your rights belong to you already. Government shouldn't be taking them away.
Which is this is not a Tomato or Tamato argument. It's more like either we have freedom or tyranny. (Apples and Oranges)
Quote: Boney526Why would you think that?
I certainly disagree. I don't need regulations to play in a poker game with friends. I trust them not to cheat, but verify. If they do cheat, they aren't going to be allowed to play.
What's the difference? Well quite simply, if there wasn't a permit system, there would be more competition. It's harder to get away with cheating your customers, when they can go next door. (Figure of speech, when they can go to another "house"). So I'd argue that with less regulations, and no necessary permits, it would be harder to get away with cheating.
With less regulation and no permits necessary, organized crime would be back in the game.
When I was collecting for the numbers game, we paid $700 for a 3 digit number. The state pays $500. Who is the thief ?
And we did not take money from kids. Kids can buy lottery and scratch tickets in all states. Just need an adult to cash them.
Only thing numbers runners and card room operators were guilty of was RECREATION WITHOUT TAXATION !
Guy was probably lying.
Anyway, sure IF a wheel has become biased its an event that takes place through some sort of wear or accumulation of dirt and grime in the frets.
Such a bias is hardly determinable and usually not from the annunciators which are separate systems.
Even if the casino did get a bit suspicious of its wheels, it does take time and money to replace or repair but then ofcourse none of the players is yet suspicious anyway because its such a subtle bias.
The casino in Estoril did that to one family, switch wheel innards but not reveal the change. Didn't throw anyone's calculations off one whit.
Yes, there is a point at which your tires are legal and the next day illegal... roulette wheels get replaced well before they are that bad.
Quote: buzzpaff" With less regulation and no permits necessary, organized crime would be back in the game. "
When I was collecting for the numbers game, we paid $700 for a 3 digit number. The state pays $500. Who is the thief ?
And we did not take money from kids. Kids can buy lottery and scratch tickets in all states. Just need an adult to cash them.
Only thing numbers runners and card room operators were guilty of was RECREATION WITHOUT TAXATION !
I said nothing about who's a thief, or running numbers, or kids and lotto tickets.I simply stated a fact no regulations no permits and organized crime will be back in the game.
And honest people have this prejudice against breaking the law.
To say nothing about going to jail.
Organized crime was not into donut shops.
That's not enough to keep the laws as they are, though, although I think there should be permits, just not so tightly restricted.
Quote: buzzpaffOrganized crime was there because there were laws against having your own game.
And honest people have this prejudice against breaking the law.
To say nothing about going to jail.
Organized crime was not into donut shops.
This sums up my view. I'm distrustful of government permits in general, since I don't think you should have to be permitted to use your property anyway that doesn't harm another individuals rights, but at very least, the permit process should be VERY EASY in order to allow people to act in a competitive manner in the market.
If they don't find a way to compete, they won't survive.
Quote: FleastiffAbsurd.
Guy was probably lying.
Anyway, sure IF a wheel has become biased its an event that takes place through some sort of wear or accumulation of dirt and grime in the frets.
Such a bias is hardly determinable and usually not from the annunciators which are separate systems.
Even if the casino did get a bit suspicious of its wheels, it does take time and money to replace or repair but then ofcourse none of the players is yet suspicious anyway because its such a subtle bias.
The casino in Estoril did that to one family, switch wheel innards but not reveal the change. Didn't throw anyone's calculations off one whit.
Yes, there is a point at which your tires are legal and the next day illegal... roulette wheels get replaced well before they are that bad.
To what post are you referring?
I recall one trip into Vegas in which I was stumbling back toward my room in the middle of the night. I was walking past Tropicana and thought to myself, "Oh what the heck, I'll stroll in and play a last few hands for the evening". The place was all but empty and only a few tables open. I sat down at a low stakes table and proceeded to CLEAN HOUSE. Not because of the count as the cards were well mixed and I was mostly flat betting minimums but because that just happened to be that weird moment in time when I couldn't seem to lose a single hand no matter what for a couple of shoes straight! The count was quite neutral for the most part and this was clearly a case of "crazy stupid lucky".
As this was happening and while this was all unfolding and evolving, the dealer was definitely glaring at me more and more, giving me the "evil eye" so to speak. Now I know why he was looking like he wanted to punch me in the face while I was relatively happy, smiling and astounded at the cards I was getting... He was pissed off that I wasn't "paying the fee"! The craziest thing is that I was betting small due to a mostly neutral count. The hilarious part is that had I been a recreational player betting based on seeing a winning streak, such as a progression player, I would have plowed out a considerably more tidy sum. As it was I was astounded at the sorts of cards I was getting and the way the chips piled up.
The dealer was a middle-aged guy what looked like he had been around the block... at least twice even! I'll never forget the way this guy was glaring at me... It was real "Twilight Zone" kind of stuff, especially since I was so tired and worn down. It seemed as if the dealer was seething with hatred over me winning a few hands. Nothing like warm and friendly dealers, eh? Maybe if I would have been losing horribly he would have been my buddy? Alas, it is my lot in life to be hated... because sometimes I don't pay the fee.
Yeah, can not have a pool hall above a whore house on THE BLOCK. LOL
Quote: rainmanYerkanoff you didn't say if you were tipping during the streak? if not that may explain the stink eye.
No, I didn't. This guy was pissed off right from the start that I even walked up so he had to shuffle the cards... and it only got worse from there. I slithered away from the table after a few shoes just wanting to leave, quickly even. Give him a tip? For what? For not going postal on me? Would you tip a waitress that glares at you, gets upset at what you ordered and then walks up and slams your plate of food onto your table with a portion of it going on your lap and then says in a vulgar tone of voice, "Sorry, guess you shouldn't have been in the way!" This is an overly dramatic example to make my point, though. I am trying to portray how a dealer with a bad attitude can weigh heavily on a player and even effect dealer tips. I'm sort of wondering if GaiPowDan gives off this sort of aura to players. Heck, I am wondering if it was GaiPowDan that I was playing against in the Tropicana that time for that matter!
If I was a casino executive, I don't know if I would hire Dan based on his astounding game protection philosophy or if I would definitely not hire him for fear that he would chase a huge volume of business out the door with his antics. I know that instance in the Tropicana left a lasting impression on me, I can tell you that much.
"
Fear not, Dan is most respectful and a talented dealer. He is professional and actually pleasant in person.
Now, online, well, you have heard of a split personality ? LOL
Quote: IvanYerkanoffI read your various pontifications and find myself somewhat alarmed, Dan. I am somewhat under the impression that if you have a sloppy drunk at your table and you are cleaning him out for all it's worth all is well with the world but if you have a player that appears to have played the game enough to make relatively intelligent playing decisions and they are winning then there is great cause for concern and you would have extreme prejudices toward them because they "haven't paid the fee"? Do you have disdain for anyone and everyone that "doesn't pay the fee"? If a player appears to be playing an up to par game do you view yourself as a "champion of the stockholders" and try to do your best to insure they can't possibly win? It just seems like you are a fairly hardcore "beat the players by any means neccessary" kind of guy. It seems like you are guarding that chip tray as if it was your own personal money rather than performing the standard functions of your job description and trying to be an "above and beyond the call of duty" kind of guy (hence the reasoning for my tossing that in there about "champion of the stockholders").
Why do you expect something for nothing? Why should the casino not "beat the players by any means necessary," provided it's with the understanding that streaks happen, are good for business, and are unlikely to last long enough to do much damage? Why shouldn't the casino make and enforce rules without which a game is not profitable? How do you expect them to be run otherwise?
Quote: 24BingoWhy do you expect something for nothing? Why should the casino not "beat the players by any means necessary," provided it's with the understanding that streaks happen, are good for business, and are unlikely to last long enough to do much damage? Why shouldn't the casino make and enforce rules without which a game is not profitable? How do you expect them to be run otherwise?
Expect something from nothing? I don't understand what you are implying with that statement but to expect and hope for a fair game is not exactly "expecting something from nothing". The casino SHOULD make and enforce rules. Rules that apply across the board to everyone to remain fair and unbiased. They should also stick by them, not make some rules up that apply to some players and not to others, provided it all works out to their best interest. "Without which a game is not profitable" is not an accurate statement. The casinos rake it in... 55 gallon drums full of money all day long. We are talking more along the lines of "stretching the rules" to the limits of potential application (or even beyond) in order to achieve a higher profit margin and pushing things to be more profitable than they already are. This means if anything other than another easy mark strolls up to the table, it's time to use extraordinary measures designed to thwart the evildoer. He is not just some guy who enjoys playing the game and likes to play intelligently so has somewhat of a half-assed shot at perhaps coming out a tiny bit ahead... on occasion. He is a scourge, a scoundrel and perhaps evil incarnate that might cut into our profits by a tiny sliver but that potential to not win that tiny sliver and clean them out for every last dollar they can muster up calls for extreme measures on the part of the casino targeting these specific individuals? The casino's greed causes them to be upset that one of the 55 gallon drums full of money is only 94% full instead of 100% full. They truly want some blood on the tracks... they want it all and they want it NOW!Hahahahaa
Hypothetical situation in which you get into a boxing match... This boxing match has rules that must be adhered to for fairness sake. You are the serious underdog in the match but as the match gets underway it turns out that you are getting a lot of points on the champion and might even have a slight chance of winning. The champ's corner decides that the rules are going to have to be stretched in order for them to assure winning so they hand the champ a .44 magnum as the bell rings for the next round and he empties 6 rounds into you. You fall to the floor and are dead in minutes. The boxing commission declares it a prudent and proper move since you demonstrated a potential ability and advantage that the other boxers the champ took on prior to this didn't have... This is sort of the way I am seeing this.
Running a fair game that adheres strictly to the same rules across the board for all involved with the game and in doing so is a profitable game for the casino is different than "Beat the players by any means neccessary" and doing whatever they may have to do in order to gouge every last cent they can, no matter how extreme they have to get to do it... Can they run it by the gaming commission to pass out some .44 magnums to the dealers? Hmmmm.... Now THAT would fix the problem!
Quote: IvanYerkanoffExpect something from nothing? I don't understand what you are implying with that statement but to expect and hope for a fair game is not exactly "expecting something from nothing". The casino SHOULD make and enforce rules. Rules that apply across the board to everyone to remain fair and unbiased. They should also stick by them, not make some rules up that apply to some players and not to others, provided it all works out to their best interest. "Without which a game is not profitable" is not an accurate statement. The casinos rake it in... 55 gallon drums full of money all day long. We are talking more along the lines of "stretching the rules" to the limits of potential application (or even beyond) in order to achieve a higher profit margin and pushing things to be more profitable than they already are. This means if anything other than another easy mark strolls up to the table, it's time to use extraordinary measures designed to thwart the evildoer. He is not just some guy who enjoys playing the game and likes to play intelligently so has somewhat of a half-assed shot at perhaps coming out a tiny bit ahead... on occasion. He is a scourge, a scoundrel and perhaps evil incarnate that might cut into our profits by a tiny sliver but that potential to not win that tiny sliver and clean them out for every last dollar they can muster up calls for extreme measures on the part of the casino targeting these specific individuals? The casino's greed causes them to be upset that one of the 55 gallon drums full of money is only 94% full instead of 100% full. They truly want some blood on the tracks... they want it all and they want it NOW!Hahahahaa
The drums will be empty. By playing "unintelligently," you have a half-assed shot at coming out ahead on occasion, although your losses will outpace your wins. By playing "intelligently," you have a slightly less half-assed shot at coming out ahead on occasion, such that your wins will outpace your losses. Unless you're a grinder, the only difference it makes to you is what you yourself ascribe it, but to the house, who relies on your money to fund their games, it makes all the difference in the world. If your answer is that not everyone is going to play "intelligently," sure, but it's not enough. The edge is too steep and the overhead too high, not like VP. "But look at all these saps!" They're only "saps" because they know counting is forbidden, or they think it's harder than it is, not because you're somehow special. For the latter, the same people might have thought basic strategy was just as hard if the casinos forbade it, but once people are talking openly about how to keep count the way they do about basic strategy, they'll learn. (Incidentally, there's a reason they don't forbid basic strategy.) You can't argue they'll make money if they allow counters by pointing to circumstances that only exist because it's public knowledge they don't.
The bottom line, and I don't know why this seems so hard a concept for so many to grasp, if players are not losing more than they win, the game cannot exist. Period.
Quote: IvanYerkanoffHypothetical situation in which you get into a boxing match... This boxing match has rules that must be adhered to for fairness sake. You are the serious underdog in the match but as the match gets underway it turns out that you are getting a lot of points on the champion and might even have a slight chance of winning. The champ's corner decides that the rules are going to have to be stretched in order for them to assure winning so they hand the champ a .44 magnum as the bell rings for the next round and he empties 6 rounds into you. You fall to the floor and are dead in minutes. The boxing commission declares it a prudent and proper move since you demonstrated a potential ability and advantage that the other boxers the champ took on prior to this didn't have... This is sort of the way I am seeing this.
And it's bull for two reasons.
1: You don't get backed off for winning at blackjack (except when the place is run by morons like the Klondike was); you get backed off for winning by counting, or holecarding, or any other method that makes the game a long-term winner. Did you get backed off at the Tropicana?
2: Did the champ's corner in this example set up the match themselves, with no endorsements, no ticket sales, no sales of footage, nothing but a huge bet on the champ? Out of pocket? Yeah, there's a reason they don't do that.
Quote: IvanYerkanoffI read your various pontifications and find myself somewhat alarmed, Dan. I am somewhat under the impression that if you have a sloppy drunk at your table and you are cleaning him out for all it's worth all is well with the world but if you have a player that appears to have......
Let me be clear:
1. I'm fine with players winning. But what I mean by winning is without conniving, shot-taking, or advantage play that is against the house rules. If you are in within the house rules, I'm totally on the player's side. Break our bank, but break it cleanly. Fine with me. I don't even sweat for a second dumping my own game. In fact, in another thread, I described a pai Gow player beating the house on a trick hand - and it was on my own game, a game that I designed and distribute as a commercial casino product.
2. I'm fine with players who are beginners. I do not take advantage of drunks. I do not like to see players lose if they are not cheaters, or (in a distinctly different catagory) AP players, or are shot-takers, or self aggrandizing people who snap their fingers in dealers' and cocktail waitresses faces demanding to be serviced or virtually fellated "in the name of customer serice" - for the treat of them being there at a place of business to take shots at us. Ivan, you wouldn't tolerate this, and I suggest you become a dice dealer or cocktail waitress to understand what it is like to walk in our shoes, and to understand what I'm talking about.
3. I'm fine with all good salt players, in fact, which is to say that I am not fond of pro's, or with people who are knowingly playing a misdealt or stacked deck for advantage, or with casino dealers or floormen who may be in collusion with such activities, or with players who think the casino is their living room, and the workers their kids, to whom they may address in any obnoxious manner that they themselves see fit. Certain things and behaviors are absolute non-starters, and I am very clear about this.
My pontifications are actually clear guidelines that can be summed up in two words: Clean play! And...run from a dirty table that's getting run over by AP's
Is there the blackjack equivalent of "Reefer madness" out there to float you with this propaganda that some counters could have any real effect on the casinos bottom line? Wait! Maybe that movie "21"? I recall a discussion talking about how ridiculous that movie was with one notable player stating that "Every casino should show this movie for free in their theater and then have a red carpet leading out of the exit directly into the blackjack pit!" Please allow me to explain why casinos should welcome counters with open arms because in the overall and in the longhaul, they are making the casino money! There is a lot of hype when it comes to card-counting. It's all designed to sell books... and maybe even to scare the daylights out of the casinos getting them all paranoid so outside consulting firms can come in and charge them a bunch of money to keep them... from losing a bunch of money!?! What a batch of counters may take down is probably less than the portion of Gary Loveman's bonus that he hands to his wife to go blow at Tiffany's. You might have been sucked into the hype bandwagon on just how dangerous those counters are to the casino's bottom line when in fact they are not.
How could I say such an outlandish thing you may ask and how can card-counters be GOOD for a casino? That's easy enough to answer and you don't have to be a NASA engineer to understand the math of it. You see, the vast majority of card-counters fail miserably, probably to the tune of about 95% of them. Others have other obligations in life and don't devote any real time to the project. They never see the long run go their way. There's a lot of potential reasons for failure to include underfinanced, poor money management skills, less than stellar actual counting skill and ability, geographical location issues and the list goes on and on. They read "Blackbelt in blackjack" and a week later they are suddenly a blackjack pro! and then they get some lessons in life taught to them. This overwhelming majority that get that rude awakening and find out that it's not so easy contribute far more than the few that are successful take.
A basic count in itself is no threat to today's blackjack games. Many countermeasures are built right into the game and it's not 1985 anymore. Not only that, most counters are using a pathetically simple count, are under financed and are likely to succumb and bust out simply because they THINK they can win, making them likely to lose more than the average gambler. Inexperienced novices will make mistakes and go "on tilt" much easier. That will eliminate much of any anticipated positive EV, wiping them out before they ever get off the ground.This HELPS the casino's bottom line rather than hurting it. A simple count in itself is not enough to win at today's blackjack games. You better have a lot more than just that in your arsenal if you want to succeed. Next time you see someone that you think is a counter... give them a hug because they are helping keep you in a job and are making the casino money!
Quote: IvanYerkanoffI don't know where you got the low down on card-counters impact on the casino's bottom line but you may have some misconceptions about it all. I saw a thread on this forum talking about how many professional blackjack players there are with the definition of the term to mean playing full time profitably with blackjack comprising your primary source of income with counting alone being their only method of AP. I've seen that question brought up before between a group of professional blackjack players and they estimated to the tune of a few hundred. The figure is that low because I am not talking about the blackjack equivalent of the "homeless professional poker players association" either. You know, guys that tell you that they are a poker pro... and living out of their car... uhm, that's called being a homeless person because apparently you are not exactly making a living!
Casinos and gambling halls exist for the sake of recreational gamblers, and not for the benefit of any pro's, with defences against pros, and without apology.
The concept of being a "professional gambler" - that is, using methods that violate house rules - avails neither the pro or the gaming industry; the casino is a fool to tolerate having pro's (- who are not gamblers) instead of gamblers, and the pro is a fool for thinking the house is the source for such a career's funding. The only thing the AP or counter will see over time is the closing door and tightening noose for himself. I am thankful for the M.I.T. students who did become doctors and engineers, and who spent their time studying to develop real careers instead of wearing disguises and working cover plays to scam casino operators. And the doctors and engineers come to gamble after dinner and a movie with the Mrs. have a grand old time, same as seeing a show or going to a steak house - as a night on the town, not as a viable career.
Quote: IvanYerkanoffIs there the blackjack equivalent of "Reefer madness" out there to float you with this propaganda that some counters could have any real effect on the casinos bottom line?
This "Refer Madness" aspect applies only to professional gamblers who think that a casino operator will be his source of career income. The only valid careers in gaming is on the legit side of the table. Trust me.
Quote: I.Y.How could I say such an outlandish thing you may ask and how can card-counters be GOOD for a casino?
The card counters who are good for casino operators are bad for themselves, and the card counters who are good for themselves (which really don't exist anymore as a viable occupation, BTW), are bad for operators. It's always a loss-win situation, never a win-win situation.
Quote: I.YThat's easy enough to answer and you don't have to be a NASA engineer to understand the math of it. You see, the vast majority of card-counters fail miserably, probably to the tune of about 95% of them. Others have other obligations in life and don't devote any real time to the project. They never see the long run go their way. There's a lot of potential reasons for failure to include underfinanced, poor money management skills, less than stellar actual counting skill and ability, geographical location issues and the list goes on and on. They read "Blackbelt in blackjack" and a week later they are suddenly a blackjack pro! and then they get some lessons in life taught to them. This overwhelming majority that get that rude awakening and find out that it's not so easy contribute far more than the few that are successful take.
And this dead-end endeavor is an assinine way to spend any time, and is always seen as such in the end. Even in the rare cases where it produces a positive income, it's always a "mouse run game" for "the professional practioner" in this cat-n-mouse game. This is where pros get their 'juice' from, and is makes gambling unpleasant and unrewarding, because it is not gambling, it is mechanical. The only way to lose for sure in the end is to enter this assinine cat-and-mouse game on the side that is guaranteed to lose in the end. I can't defend this side, even if you wish to. One is either a pathetic failure of a 'beat the system' crony who gets stopped early on, or a successful 'beat the system' crony who eventually gets stopped and loses. In this regard, I look at the "still successful AP" as an even slower learner.
Quote: I.YA basic count in itself is no threat to today's blackjack games. Many countermeasures are built right into the game and it's not 1985 anymore. Not only that, most counters are using a pathetically simple count, are under financed and are likely to succumb and bust out simply because they THINK they can win, making them likely to lose more than the average gambler. This HELPS the casino's bottom line rather than hurting it. A simple count in itself is not enough to win at today's blackjack games. You better have a lot more than just that in your arsenal if you want to succeed. Next time you see someone that you think is a counter... give them a hug because they are helping keep you in a job and are making the casino money!
1. So wouldn't these card-counting pro's just be banging their heads against a wall in the long run? Seems foolish to me.
2. I get my jobs from gamblers, not from pro's, as we all do in this business. Don't flatter yourself or your kind. Card counters and AP players are about as immaterial to gaming as transit pass countefeiters are to transit systems; sure, there's loss prevention in every business operation, but it is there to protect from only thieves and scammers, and is not a larger part of the business' larger objectives.
No response on the hug. I guess the hug is out of the question also?
Quote: IvanYerkanoffI can sort of see that trying to explain anything to you logically that may conflict with your idealogical view points would be like me trying to explain to a Southern Baptist minister that the earth is a lot more than 7000 years old... It's just not going to work. What can I say other than, "Carry on brave soldier, O champion of the stockholders---SIEG HEIL!"
No response on the hug. I guess the hug is out of the question also?
There is no Sieg Heil to me, or for me. I'm just a typical dealer thinking that any scam attempt is an issue for surveillance and loss prevention, and is a general - and very sefish - waste of time for all involved. That this is apparent to me is logical. Lord knows, I have my mathematician do an AP Protection report on any game that I design - and I am thankful that he is an EX-AP casino player.
Again, some Nazi reference or Bible-thumping accusation made against me, and entering into a forum thread - to support a weak and emotional argument from someone in Internet-land, and who is very far outside of the realities of the gaming industry, is pushing it. The Godwin Defense rears it head!
That is, AP play against a house-banked operation avails the AP player little but trouble in the long run, and that smart - "logical" - people see this early on. And it increases expenses (and house edges, for those of you complain and obess about this!) - and for all.
Quote: IbeatyouracesAnd you know of every AP's finances?
Yes.
Generally:
1. Volitility;
2. Boredom; gambling is not gambling, nor is it fun. It's work, and unrewarding work ("+4, +4, +4, +5, +5, +4, +3, +3....lost...+3, +3, +4, +4...okay, I won...+4, +4, +5, +5....stay on my 12 against a 2...+6, +6, +7, ... ... ...") going on for ever! In mature gaming markets, Pai Gow Poker is getting more action as a more intersting and social game, with craps as a far more exciting game.
3. Stress. Team members losing or stealing from you; your own losing streaks...your old lady saying to you, "this is nuts, and you are OUT!...")
4. Fundamental dishonesty. ("It's clearly wrong, as the pit boss 86-ed me..." "What disguises or false ID's shall I use today?" "What cover plays will I use to further hide...")
For a short career diversion, I can see this being an interesting and temporary chapter in a gambler's life. After two years, it is shot to hell for the practitioner, even if not burnt out through casino identification of the perp. (my words here...but the lifestyle indicates an element of this for it to work for a while.)
I can imaging the effort to become the type of card-counter (that could possibly succeed for a short while) being better spent on an engineering degree....
And yes, I have seen some struggling and hard-up counters wishing it was 1985....I would say that many said, "I pushed it for way to long, hanging on in denial." Forget about ethics, and contribution to society, and family, and best interests to the self.
The life that Tilton had for his duration of his short card-counting career was actually decent; he maintained his financial counsulting business, while doing what it took to practice and hone his skills to where he could be among the "current best in that business," so to speak.
He;
- Lost one relationship;
- Got taken for some $$$ by "The New York Crew" claiming false table play losses of an extreme nature to cover theft against Tilton and "D.A." ( - is there honor among....)
- had to hide financial transactions, and hide and haul bundles of cash while traveling (not exciting, actually); DO NOTE THAT LEGIT JOB WAS A SIDE JOB OF A FINACIAL ADVISOR FOR TRUSTED CLIENTS!
- would not have spent a second arguing with good ol' Pai Gow Dan here, or on any forum, not wasting a second away from focusing on his tasks and skill sets, keeing a VERY low profile (and this place ain't the place to do that...)
and left when he was ahead, knowing that he was burnt out (or known as an AP player to operators by this point.)
He gave some lip service about the evil casinos and their greed, to salve and justify his own little project. The old "Me??!! I don't have any blood on my hands, - it's those dirty, evil casinos, you know..." kind of justification. I heard the same argument from advocates of Napster, who distributed hit music on the internet while stiffing the greedy artists from their royalties...
And Tilton was the top of the top of Ap-ers here. About a three year span, all done with the best trainers, very hard work and practice sessions, in secrecy, and without wasting a second blowing any wind here to any casino cop like me. He still works in a legit career - as in did NOT/Could not retire.
As a chapter in his life that made for a good read, all well and fine, it is good. Few ex-card counters or AP players now promote AP play, or give courses in it (well Semyon, maybe...); most are "legit" in the business, if still in the business.
TEliot now giving AP "defense protection" to casinos on how to defeat AP play...Steve How is now a bona-fide gaming mathematician with Pacman/R.S., but still expouses taking down games; our beloved Mike at Las Vegas Sands/Venetian, and Beloved Charles R. Mousseau a big gaming math guy.
There is a strong acknowledgement of the legit side of the business being legit by ex-Ap-ers.
When the Ap-ers get more money from the casino operators by working with them instead of against them, it really says something.
Quote: PaigowdanYes.
Generally:
1. Volitility;
2. Boredom; gambling is not gambling, nor is it fun. It's work, and unrewarding work ("+4, +4, +4, +5, +5, +4, +3, +3....lost...+3, +3, +4, +4...okay, I won...+4, +4, +5, +5....stay on my 12 against a 2...+6, +6, +7, ... ... ...") going on for ever! In mature gaming markets, Pai Gow Poker is getting more action as a more intersting and social game, with craps as a far more exciting game.
3. Stress. Team members losing or stealing from you; your own losing streaks...your old lady saying to you, "this is nuts, and you are OUT!...")
4. Fundamental dishonesty. ("It's clearly wrong, as the pit boss 86-ed me..." "What disguises or false ID's shall I use today?" "What cover plays will I use to further hide...")
For a short career diversion, I can see this being an interesting and temporary chapter in a gambler's life. After two years, it is shot to hell for the practitioner, even if not burnt out through casino identification of the perp. (my words here...but the lifestyle indicates an element of this for it to work for a while.)
I can imaging the effort to become the type of card-counter (that could possibly succeed for a short while) being better spent on an engineering degree....
And yes, I have seen some struggling and hard-up counters wishing it was 1985....I would say that many said, "I pushed it for way to long, hanging on in denial." Forget about ethics, and contribution to society, and family, and best interests to the self.
You are correct, Dan, AP can be boring. But so can many jobs. That is why they call it work, not play. It seems like this board has members that have decided that they can make more money at "AP work" than a "real" job. I have to tell you, as someone who EVERY DAY deals casino games, which to me appears to be amongst the most boring jobs in the world, you more than anyone would know that you do it to make a buck, not for the glamour of saying 12, 16, 22, dealer busts!
As far as 'fundamental dishonesty', that is inherent to many businesses. Advertising the cheap TV when you really will try and push the expensive one. Calling your sizes "regular, medium, and large" rather than "small, medium, and large". Listing an "MSRP" price on a car, which the manufacturer ABSOLUTELY does not really suggest. Saying you are a clean athlete when your ten best friends will testify against you. Saying Obamacare will save money! Etc....
Quote: IbeatyouracesAll that being said, I still say its fair for casino to not allow us to make a bet if they so wish.
True. Thank you, IBYA !
Does any casino force anyone to make an involuntary bet, and can we also reasonably assert that complimentary beverage service and free bet mailers sent to us are a hideous conspiracy and are unreasonable?
No, it is not, and casino operators do the same business as Regal Cinemas and TGI Fridays and Pizza hut - with coupons and appealing places of business. And if casinos comp a whale free suites and motocycles, then fine too.
Quote: SOOPOOYou are correct, Dan, AP can be boring. But so can many jobs. That is why they call it work, not play.
But the premise for "normal civilians" is that gambling is supposed to be fun - a recreation. And it is. Except for AP's. A touch of karmic justice here.....it turns out to be both an unsustainable job as well as a shitty job. Certainly not a career of distinction. They all later get or keep legit jobs. Being a legit crap dealer is better, I've always felt so.
I work for money, and dealing can be as fun as playing, as you are in the action, and the fun is contagious, - depending on who the players are.
I work to pay bills, and I find the gaming industry interesting and rewarding on the "work side' - which I would NOT as an AP.
I gamble to have fun, win or lose.
Quote: SOOPOOIt seems like this board has members that have decided that they can make more money at "AP work" than a "real" job.
Delusions, really. Any competent AP player would not spend a second here posting. (But Reading? Hell Yes...) The AP realm can only support mono-mission dedicated maniacs at great personal cost and risk, with negative gaming karma and MoJo.
I, too, am a mono-mission dedicated maniac, but on the operator/distributor's side - which was what it took to get a hit games out. So is Roger/Pacman. So is Geoff/Switch. So is Stacy/MathExtremist. We all appear to have normal families and wives, with no disguises and secret identities to AP at various casinos.
We don't disappear on our weekends to Foxwoods to play 80 hours of freakin' Blackjack wearing a false moustache.
We openly go to Foxwoods to spend nine hours total to sell or install a new game. This is different, it is more normal, if you can do it.
Actually, we openly walk into casinos and pitch them games, and are welcomed, and are considered 'persona pro-grata.' And when asked "How do we stop AP Advantage action on your games?" - we TELL them!
And I am certain that you all envision me turning into Lewis Black, stabbing my finger into the air while saying: "THIS is how you KILL those AP motherfuckers......Arrrggh, arrgh, arrgh!"
Nope, I don't even worry about that, as I worry about that on stick dealing dice. And I basically say, "Sorry, Sir - no bet after the dice are out to the shooter..." That's different!
Quote: SOOPOOI have to tell you, as someone who EVERY DAY deals casino games, which to me appears to be amongst the most boring jobs in the world, you more than anyone would know that you do it to make a buck, not for the glamour of saying 12, 16, 22, dealer busts!
It's not boring, except for BJ. Pai Gow Poker is always interesting hands, and craps is not-stop action, except when I have one player playing a $3 pass line bet and a $5 fire bet at 2 in the morning the last hour before going home. Then it becomes like card-counting ("Six Easy, no field six....Four hard field roll.......Ten easy, field roll......Three Crap Ace-deuce, single the field...Two crap Aces, double [the field]...Five, no field, five...................")
Quote: IbeatyouracesI agree with you about the business aspect. I just don't like being called a "cheater." :-)
Don't let it hurt your feelings, really. I'm not a priest you'll see in confession.
We openly go to Foxwoods to spend nine hours total sell or install a new game. This is different, it is more normal, if you can do it."
Game inventors are not normal, and you damn well know it. LOL
Quote: buzzpaffGame inventors are not normal, and you damn well know it. LOL
True, but we don't wear false moustaches, and our wives hate us less.
