Baseball Gods or Cheating Scum?

https://nypost.com/2019/11/13/why-astros-could-face-harsher-penalty-amid-cheating-scandal/

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — What did the Astros know, and when did they steal it?

That question could guide Major League Baseball’s investigation into the reigning American League champions regarding allegations that they electronically (and illegally) stole signs from opposing teams during their 2017 championship season. And early evidence would seem to put Houston in trouble.

On September 15, 2017, MLB announced the Red Sox would be fined an undisclosed amount for utilizing Apple Watches in their dugout to swipe signals from the Yankees; the Yankees paid a smaller undisclosed amount for improper usage of a dugout phone. That day, in a statement, commissioner Rob Manfred disclosed that all teams had been notified of the following: “Future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.”

On Tuesday, The Athletic, quoting 2017 Astros pitcher Mike Fiers, reported that the club utilized a camera positioned in center field and focused on the opposing catcher to steal signals, conveying their findings through the banging of a garbage can in a tunnel connecting the Astros’ dugout to their clubhouse. Retired pitcher Danny Farquhar shared his recollection of a suspicious incident at Minute Maid that occurred that season while he was pitching for the White Sox. Twitter baseball detective @Jomboy_ subsequently dug up video that substantiated Farquhar’s allegations during an at-bat against Houston’s Evan Gattis.

That White Sox-Astros game took place on September 21, 2017, six days after MLB made its announcement, therefore seemingly putting the Astros in violation of the reinforced and heightened guidelines.

Manfred is expected to discuss baseball’s investigation of the Astros, which also will cover the organization’s conduct during the Brandon Taubman scandal last month, at next week’s owners’ meetings.

I am all for stealing signals. If you are being so obvious on your signals then too bad. I remember in little league if we were at 2nd base and saw the catcher put down a 1 then we gave a signal for fastball. Not all teams mixed up their signals at that age. Maybe with technology it is easier to do now but then teams should just mix it up better.

Quote: GWAE

I am all for stealing signals. If you are being so obvious on your signals then too bad. I remember in little league if we were at 2nd base and saw the catcher put down a 1 then we gave a signal for fastball. Not all teams mixed up their signals at that age. Maybe with technology it is easier to do now but then teams should just mix it up better.

If you can steal signals without technology then I'm ok with that but using cameras or devices crosses the line imo.
Gwae you must have been in a more advanced little league than I was,I cant remember any catchers using signals until high school.

Stealing signals is probably as old as the second baseball game ever played. As long as it is what is in the open, i.e., they are not tapping phone conversations to the upstairs if baseball even has that, so what. Mix up your signals if you don't like them being stolen.

This is an easy one for me. The Astros were aware of the rule that made it illegal to steal signals using a device. This is no minor thing. If the worst team in baseball knew every pitch before it was thrown they become the best team in baseball. If true (no one is denying it) there had to be dozens in on the crime. Every player that took advantage should be ashamed. The manager should be banned for life.
Think about the LOSING team in the LCS that year Robbed of a chance to get to the WS. Think about the LOSING team in the WS. Maybe never getting back, having your chance for a World Championship outright stolen from you.
Ask any .250 hitter what his average becomes if he knows exactly what pitch is coming.......

I'd vacate the World Series win. A fine (laughable) or taking away draft picks (a tad less laughable) is saying you made a GOOD decision to steal the signs. Who wouldn't trade some money ($2,000,000 I think is max fine allowed) or draft picks (not NEARLY as important in baseball as other sports) for a World Series win?

Just wondering...... Did the cameraman bet on the Astros that year?

The Astros number one picks when they tanked were Carlos Correa and Alex Bergmann. Nats #1 picked were Strasburg and Rendon.
Astros have shown they are both sexist( see there now fired assistant GM) and cheaters. What a shock.
Players stealing signs is fine. Using club employees and technology is the territory of Bill Bellacheat.
They aren't going to vacate their title, nor can they ban them for post season play. I'm not sure what punishment really fits the crime.

Draft picks are more valuable than they might seem, as pointed out above. It's just that baseball players are rarely famous as prospects, plus, it is a more skill-driven game than football or hoops. So it takes players a few years to develop.

IDK, it's an interesting question in itself. In hoops, the top picks are gold, where later picks are worthless to the point that they only have 2 rounds. nfl, midround picks are quite valuable, largely cuz those players get screwed financially. baseball is somewhere in the middle.

Another consequence of the cheating is that it could damage or ruin a career and/or income. Remember how Darvish was destroyed in the playoffs and WS? Perhaps there is just something that makes him more vulnerable to cheating. e.g. more time between when he gets a signal and when he throws a pitch. A pitcher who relies heavily on deception or sequencing would really get screwed. A guy like Mariano Rivera, who throws one devastating pitch would be immune.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Another consequence of the cheating is that it could damage or ruin a career and/or income. Remember how Darvish was destroyed in the playoffs and WS? Perhaps there is just something that makes him more vulnerable to cheating. e.g. more time between when he gets a signal and when he throws a pitch. A pitcher who relies heavily on deception or sequencing would really get screwed. A guy like Mariano Rivera, who throws one devastating pitch would be immune.

Despicable sport, now that I think more about it. No honor. If they are banging on garbage cans to pass on the info the entire team must have been in on it.

You are 100% correct. Some pitcher barely hanging on to a hefty major league contract is now in the minors because his ERA was 5.4 instead of 5.1. Another would have made the all star team but was replaced by a Houston pitcher whose signals were never illegally stolen. GM's were fired because they weren't as good as Houston.

As far as the value of MLB draft picks, I did not mean they are valueless, but just way less valuable than NBA, NFL, or NHL picks at the top. Of course there are occasional exceptions. Remember, the draft pick the Astros would give up would be 2nd to last in the first round. I dare anyone to know who the second to last first rounder was in any of the last 10 drafts.

2011 it was Joe Panik who was a very good player for several years. But that seems like a loaded draft. I'd say more of these guys stuck than a typical NFL draft.

mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/draft/y2011/drafttracker.jsp

2010 Cam Bedrosian. Also a very good player. Less loaded draft.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/draft/y2010/drafttracker.jsp

It's fun looking at these. But your point remains: losing out on a Joe Panik is a significant penalty. He did in fact, help the Giants win some titles. But it's not exactly a major deterrent to cheating if it can help you win a WS.

Quote: SOOPOO

You are 100% correct. Some pitcher barely hanging on to a hefty major league contract is now in the minors because his ERA was 5.4 instead of 5.1.

If he has a 5.10 ERA he should be sent down anyway.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Draft picks are more valuable than they might seem, as pointed out above. It's just that baseball players are rarely famous as prospects, plus, it is a more skill-driven game than football or hoops. So it takes players a few years to develop.

IDK, it's an interesting question in itself. In hoops, the top picks are gold, where later picks are worthless to the point that they only have 2 rounds. nfl, midround picks are quite valuable, largely cuz those players get screwed financially. baseball is somewhere in the middle.

Another consequence of the cheating is that it could damage or ruin a career and/or income. Remember how Darvish was destroyed in the playoffs and WS? Perhaps there is just something that makes him more vulnerable to cheating. e.g. more time between when he gets a signal and when he throws a pitch. A pitcher who relies heavily on deception or sequencing would really get screwed. A guy like Mariano Rivera, who throws one devastating pitch would be immune.

In my opinion draft picks are less valuable in MLB than NBA or NFL due to the salary cap structure or lack thereof in each sport. Lack of number of picks and quickly deceleration of value in basketball just a function of number of players on a team or in rotation, longer careers than football so less relative turnover.