Sports book operator accused of shortchanging bettors
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28 members have voted
Sports book operator accused of shortchanging bettors
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The NGCB (Nevada Gaming Control Board) used to have a reputation of habitually taking the casino's side in every dispute and turning a blind eye to anything improper the casinos were doing. Plenty of examples could be raised. However, I must say that they seem to be doing a better job at properly regulating the industry lately.
I'd be interested to know the specifics of this bug, if anybody knows.
The question for the poll is what do you think about this? (multiple votes allowed)
"The complaint alleges CG Technology initially tried to block the state’s investigation into the incorrect payments"
That sounds criminal to me
Quote: WizardNormally I'm not one to start a thread drawing attention to an outside article, but this time merits an exception. I'm referring to the Nevada Gaming Control Board issuing a $700,000 fine to CG Technology (a.k.a. Cantor Gaming) for not fixing a known software bug that was shortchanging players. Here is a link to the Las Vegas Sun article.
Sports book operator accused of shortchanging bettors
.
The NGCB (Nevada Gaming Control Board) used to have a reputation of habitually taking the casino's side in every dispute and turning a blind eye to anything improper the casinos were doing. Plenty of examples could be raised. However, I must say that they seem to be doing a better job at properly regulating the industry lately.
I'd be interested to know the specifics of this bug, if anybody knows.
The question for the poll is what do you think about this? (multiple votes allowed)
"The complaint alleges CG Technology initially tried to block the state’s investigation into the incorrect payments."
"But the complaint says the books never tried to make good on the underpayments to thousands of bettors who did not complain."
"The incorrect payments allegedly started in August 2011 and continued until March 2015, according to the complaint. The board said it was led to believe in May 2014 that the problem had been fixed."
"But a bettor notified state regulators in March 2015 that he was underpaid on a winning round robin parlay bet at the Silverton, according to the complaint."
And Dan says it's Advantage Players who are cheating and stealing.
Quote: AxelWolfAnd Dan says it's Advantage Players who are cheating and stealing.
No, I say it's unacceptable for anyone participating in a gambling event pulling crap. Most people are thieves if they can get away with something, and just about all try crap somewhere along the line.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, I say it's unacceptable for anyone participating in a gambling event pulling crap. Most people are thieves if they can get away with something, and just about all try crap somewhere along the line.
Dan -- I'm shocked! -- You used the C word twice. This is obviously something you feel strongly about.
I don't hear you calling Cantor cheaters and thieves like you do AP's. They should be held to a higher standard, yet they tried to cover it up and let it go on for a long time while paying people off who complained instead of fixing the problem . Of course you won't call them cheats or whatever, it's not beneficial for you to call out gaming companies, casinos or people who have public notoriety. So you stick to calling out AP in general.Quote: PaigowdanNo, I say it's unacceptable for anyone participating in a gambling event pulling crap. Most people are thieves if they can get call them out away with something, and just about all try crap somewhere along the line.
It was probably an AP who realized this was happening and pressed the issue. Probably Saving many innocent ploppys many thousands of dollars in the future.
You never did answer how your company, bosses or coworkers feel about you befriending people who are supporters of AP. Perhaps you avoided that question if so I respect that and won't bring it up or expect an answer.
Altered course of the Gaming Board: Too little; too late.
'computer errors'... easy to blame but it sounds here like its 'easy to create' and 'easy to keep going'.
Its similar to the Los Angeles Sales Tax 'errors'... lunch counter in large office building set randomly selected transactions to be rung up high on the tax: no one ever complained for eons.
They finally short changed the wrong guy... but undoubtedly made a fortune and now say 'simple mistake'.
In the absence of bugs that pay the players too much, there is no bug that pays the house too much. Bugs are human errors which are random; non-random bugs are intentional.
Quote: WizardNormally I'm not one to start a thread drawing attention to an outside article, but this time merits an exception. I'm referring to the Nevada Gaming Control Board issuing a $700,000 fine to CG Technology (a.k.a. Cantor Gaming) for not fixing a known software bug that was shortchanging players. Here is a link to the Las Vegas Sun article.
Sports book operator accused of shortchanging bettors
.
The NGCB (Nevada Gaming Control Board) used to have a reputation of habitually taking the casino's side in every dispute and turning a blind eye to anything improper the casinos were doing. Plenty of examples could be raised. However, I must say that they seem to be doing a better job at properly regulating the industry lately.
I'd be interested to know the specifics of this bug, if anybody knows.
The question for the poll is what do you think about this? (multiple votes allowed)
It wasn't a $700,000 fine, they underpaid players by $700,000.
The fine will be millions and depending on how much they obstructed the investigation this could be the death penalty for them. They were already on very thin ice. Don't be surprised if William Hill or another company takes them over.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/complaint-says-cg-technology-underpaid-bettors-700000-las-vegas-sports-books
Quote: WizardofnothingI never liked cg at Cosmo I had multiple issues with their software both on the app and live at the book - I also had a ticket that complete had all the ink bleed off from being in my pocket
I spent hours setting up the app, then trying to get it to work. A manager couldn't figure it out and refunded my money, but it was a lot of wasted time and energy.
I had a live betting account with them. Lost most of the money, but had a few bucks. Left it dormant for a long time. When I went to check on it, the account seemed to have vanished.
I'd like them to be nuked, but only if it means independent books move into those places. If they just get taken over by William Hill, that's obviously bad.
A grim possibility for the future is a small number of books that push most of the action to apps.
I had exactly the same experience as this (with the app, which did work on my device). After some period of months, went to log-in to it just as a convenience to check on some lines. Poof. I don't exist. For a balance of $7.30 or something like that I'd left on there. I'm quite okay with being nobody to them after giving them no action for months, but I should be a nobody with $7.30. Instead, I'm a nobody who apparently never was. I'm one of those annoying nits who does things like keep meticulous records, even including screenshots of his own wagers & account status. But I haven't (yet) bothered with inquiring about the matter of my seven-dollah an' tirdy-sense. Sounds like I might need to get in line if I did.Quote: RigondeauxLeft it dormant for a long time. When I went to check on it, the account seemed to have vanished.
The longer RJ article (available in the link posted above by DRich) is more detailed, and includes mention of their previously reported issues that led to a federal criminal conviction.
BTW, MGM/Mirage Resorts Int'l is shortly joining the existing slew of brick & mortar book operations with an app. So I guess that'll be BillHill, Cantor, MRI, SouthPoint, Station, Westgate, Wynn... and probably one or two I'm forgetting at the moment.
Quote: AxelWolfI don't hear you calling Cantor cheaters and thieves like you do AP's. They should be held to a higher standard, yet they tried to cover it up and let it go on for a long time while paying people off who complained instead of fixing the problem . Of course you won't call them cheats or whatever, it's not beneficial for you to call out gaming companies, casinos or people who have public notoriety. So you stick to calling out AP in general.
It was probably an AP who realized this was happening and pressed the issue. Probably Saving many innocent ploppys many thousands of dollars in the future.
You never did answer how your company, bosses or coworkers feel about you befriending people who are supporters of AP. Perhaps you avoided that question if so I respect that and won't bring it up or expect an answer.
This is a normal human behavior.
Quote: WizardofnothingAssuming it was a rounding error in there software since I believe it was only in parlay payouts
Underpayments of $700,000 on 20,000 bets means the average underpayment was $35 per bet. That seems to me to be too large to be a round-off error.
This seems like crookedness. Parlay/round-robin bets have large pay-offs and the bettor is usually excited and grateful to get his payout. If a sports book was going to cheat and skim off money from the payout, this is exactly the kind of situation in which they would choose to do the skimming.
Software does not make "round-off errors." It calculates numbers exactly -see the WOO site for example.
Wizardofnothing, how bad and shameful does it have to be before you will admit that a casino -or a part of the gambling industry - was cheating its clients?
they will probably add it to some long shot situation. Casinos have been known to play dirty like this when they take down progessives. They put the money on some super hard to hit progessive.Quote: RigondeauxAlan Dinkman pointed out that the 700,000 will probably have to be given back to players, if the company remains in business. Since it's too hard to track down every bettor, this will likely be done with some kind of pool, contest or other +ev promotions. Something to keep an eye out for.
Its just amazing to me how clean some people claim the casino's are yet they don't have much to say when stuff like this happens..
Quote: RigondeauxAlan Dinkman pointed out that the 700,000 will probably have to be given back to players, if the company remains in business. Since it's too hard to track down every bettor, this will likely be done with some kind of pool, contest or other +ev promotions. Something to keep an eye out for.
Wouldn't surprise me if they actually turn a profit on the so-called giving the money back. For example, suppose they have a handicapping contest where the player has to pick every game in week 1 of the NFL. The player with the best record wins the pool. Suppose they start the pool with the $700,000 and then add 90% of all entry fees. They will promote like hell the $700,000 seed money. If the publicity brings in more than $7,000,000 in entries, they make a profit.
And that should be a gaming violation. They shouldn't be able to screw players and then make a profit on it.Quote: WizardWouldn't surprise me if they actually turn a profit on the so-called giving the money back. For example, suppose they have a handicapping contest where the player has to pick every game in week 1 of the NFL. The player with the best record wins the pool. Suppose they start the pool with the $700,000 and then add 90% of all entry fees. They will promote like hell the $700,000 seed money. If the publicity brings in more than $7,000,000 in entries, they make a profit.
Of course for the wagers that were made on the mobile app, which I'm thinking would be the biggest basket of them, unless I'm missing something this ought be the easiest thing in the world to make exactly & completely right for most of them at the speed of moving electrons. I'd think the allegedly larcenous HAL-9000 could now be re-tasked to put the correctly re-calculated money into the mobile accounts where it belongs, with or without a "sorry, Dave" message. Before revoking their gaming license.Quote: LVRJ...for its mobile sports wagering in August 2011, the complaint said, and the company miscalculated winning parlay bets for several years.
In April 2014 the company expanded the system beyond mobile gaming and began using the software for counter wagers...
And for those whose accounts may have been closed since being hosed, it would seem to me that the thieving program should only need to add an investment in a postage stamp to open the pod bay doors by sending exactly the right check to the right dude or dudette, since starting one of those mobile accounts involves complete documentation of exactly who you are and where you be.
I have an array of my copies spread out on my desk in front of me right now that I just pulled out (yes I save that sh@t) showing exactly what they gather when opening mobile wagering accounts. Among other things: Name, complete home address, additional mailing address(es) if any, phone(s), DOB, SSN, Driver License or other gov't issued picture ID # used in confirming the above (and they make & keep a photocopy of that - I think it may have been Cantor that repeated that several times because their scanner was having trouble seeing it clearly enough to meet what they required for the audit trail), with the staff's solemn signed declaration (twice with two employees, always including a supervisor) that: "We have witnessed the applicant's signature and have confirmed the applicant's identity and residence...blah, blah, yadda, yadda...."
The rest of y'all can fight over the remaining table scraps of whatever may have been done by shoving dead presidents across a counter at a Cantor McBook joint. I suggest a cage-fighting bracket-challenge death-match for all the remaining marbles left in the barrel. With a live video streaming feed.
Quote: gordonm888Underpayments of $700,000 on 20,000 bets means the average underpayment was $35 per bet. That seems to me to be too large to be a round-off error.
This seems like crookedness. Parlay/round-robin bets have large pay-offs and the bettor is usually excited and grateful to get his payout. If a sports book was going to cheat and skim off money from the payout, this is exactly the kind of situation in which they would choose to do the skimming.
Software does not make "round-off errors." It calculates numbers exactly -see the WOO site for example.
Wizardofnothing, how bad and shameful does it have to be before you will admit that a casino -or a part of the gambling industry - was cheating its clients?
It's clearly was a programming error with rounding or something - they didn't sit and scalp random parlays- and from what I'm told it was in parlays and what not- not on straight up bets
Quote: WizardofnothingIt's clearly was a programming error with rounding or something - they didn't sit and scalp random parlays- and from what I'm told it was in parlays and what not- not on straight up bets
Who the hell tested the software? Seems simple enough to do-you input old lines and old bets, and see if it calculates them right. It isn't like HOW the bet works changed from the way they handled them before to the new way, so there should be plenty of data to test enough scenarios to validate the data...unless either they cheated on those bets all along or they just didn't bother with proper testing. Either way, the error should have been seen well before the cheated players out of $7000,000. No checks and balances?
I think that someone knew this was happening, maybe not right away but along the way, and thought they would never get caught.
The should use the data they have to pay back the bettors they can find, run a promo contest that they cannot make money on for the rest, and be put out of business. There is no room for cheating gambling entities. Send the message loud and clear to all of them.
I think we can assume the wagers accepted after the fight were on the losers. Or can we? Whoever is running that outfit sure lacks phone and computer skills. It seems like cheating to take a wager on a fighter or team that has already lost, but we don't know that (yet) from this link...
When people bet parlays and money lines or vig is involved in the lines the computer most likely was programmed to round up or down at some point this short changing some and overpaying slightly to other .
I.e. Baseball parlay
Red -140
Phila +210
Yanks -190
Quote: WizardofnothingI've said before they didn't run things right. However as far as the short changing - they were overpaying as well.
When people bet parlays and money lines or vig is involved in the lines the computer most likely was programmed to round up or down at some point this short changing some and overpaying slightly to other .
I.e. Baseball parlay
Red -140
Phila +210
Yanks -190
"The Nevada Gaming Control Board has filed a complaint against CG Technology, which runs seven Las Vegas-area sports books, for underpaying about $700,000 on more than 20,000 winning bets.
The complaint, filed Monday, also says about $100,000 was overpaid on more than 11,000 parlay wagers over a period of more than three years."
These operators know how the bets are supposed to work; overpaying by an average of $9.09 and underpaying by an average of $35.00 being considered "rounding errors" is ridiculous--not ridiculous in that the original program had rounding errors, but in that it was not tested properly and these errors found and corrected prior to going into production.
They gained $600,000 in what you dismiss all too easily as "rounding errors"...rounding errors would be more of an acceptable answer if the average mistake was >.50 per bet but it still would be something that would need corrected.
This is criminal behavior, IMO, and they should be closed down. Casinos and books should have a higher standard since they are already set up to win from their customers. Winning $600,000 extra is not acceptable.
I even go to most restaurants and when the bill is 121.49. And I give 200 sometimes I get 78 change sometimes 79 sometimes 78.51
Quote: WizardofnothingSo the profited about 500 a day and you think anyone would really think that would stand out. On top of that a 50 cent rounding error on could easily equate to a larger about when parlays are involved. I agree they should be responsible however it's every day in crap and in commission games with wrong commission taken out.
I even go to most restaurants and when the bill is 121.49. And I give 200 sometimes I get 78 change sometimes 79 sometimes 78.51
First, I meant a >.50 rounding error per bet. Sorry if it was not clear.
Your missing the point. They are supposed to know how all the numbers work and get the calculations right. In craps, you should know the payouts and watch them--those are human mistakes. These are system mistakes that were made because, it would appear, that the system was not properly tested. Huge difference in the type of mistake. Human dealers will get canned if they are consistently screwing up. The machine should not need to be "canned" because the program should be tested to perfection with a very small acceptable rounding error--a penny or two or something like that.
You should count your change and make sure it is correct. Again, it is a human transaction. We have a generation of folks who are used to the computer calculating everything and are just not very good at calculating change. I don't know why that is, but they seem more confused than they should be over counting change.
Quote: DRichA lot of you are missing the big issue. Software bugs and errors happen everywhere. The fact the software had an error isn't the big problem. The problem is once they were aware of the error, what did they do? In any case they ave been in enough trouble in the pas that they should now be done. I don;t forsee Nevada Gaming allowing them to continue under their current license.
I 100 percent agree with that
I think it is reasonable to conclude that this company simply can't manage their enterprise effectively.
only 100%?Quote: WizardofnothingI 100 percent agree with that
I remember you as the 1000% and 10000% guy ;-)
I love seeing that there's a new post in a thread just to find out its 2f.Quote: TwoFeathersATLonly 100%?
I remember you as the 1000% and 10000% guy ;-)
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IIRC cantor has VP progessives?
Perhaps they can add 100k at a time to the VP progessives until the 700k is given back. Then I woke up.
Ouch! That hurt a little.Quote: AxelWolfI love seeing that there's a new post in a thread just to find out its 2f.
I will roll with the punch and take it as constructive critisism.
Will strive to do better, no promises on results.
Forgot how many participate on little screens here, PITA.
To stay somewhat in the realm of current affairs:
I once entered the Miss Frivolous-ness-ey contest thinking I had an angle.
Was told I could compete but could not share the changing rooms with the other competitors.
I suppose in today's world I could have gotten away with it.
I'm feeling very feminine this week.
Since Axel just bitch slapped me ;-)
Quote: JIMMYFOCKERAdditional Cantor problems going to be made public at a later date.
It seems Floyd Mayweather is still betting with Cantor. A recent photo of a large winning ticket on the Warriors in game 6 vs OKC at plus 130. on the money line.
