Is each reel of a slot machine independent?
My question is, is it a requirement for class III slots that each reel be independent?
I understand that each reel may be weighted, but is it a requirement that the probability of a certain landing spot on reel 3 be independent of the landing spots on reels 1 and 2?
Or is it (for example) allowed to have reel 3 more likely to land a jackpot symbol when reels 1 and/or 2 don't have that symbol showing (to create more "near-miss" results)?
If it matters, I'm talking about a 9-line machine with physical reels.
Thanks
The question is, do "reels" actually exist any more, or does the machine (assuming it's a video one, of course) have some method of generating the displayed symbols on its own - for example, to increase the number of "near misses"? That is, each number in the range of the RNG does not correspond to a specific pattern of displayed symbols, but only to a result, and if it is a losing result, the machine can display a losing pattern of symbols in any way that it can.
Quote: SkinnyTonyHi everyone, first time poster here.
My question is, is it a requirement for class III slots that each reel be independent?
I understand that each reel may be weighted, but is it a requirement that the probability of a certain landing spot on reel 3 be independent of the landing spots on reels 1 and 2?
Or is it (for example) allowed to have reel 3 more likely to land a jackpot symbol when reels 1 and/or 2 don't have that symbol showing (to create more "near-miss" results)?
If it matters, I'm talking about a 9-line machine with physical reels.
Thanks
link to original post
In most Class 3 jurisdictions each reel must be independent and can not be influenced by other reels.
Quote: ThatDonGuyI think there was at one point, at least in Nevada, but I have copies of the gaming regulations going back to 2007 and cannot find such a requirement since then.
The question is, do "reels" actually exist any more, or does the machine (assuming it's a video one, of course) have some method of generating the displayed symbols on its own - for example, to increase the number of "near misses"? That is, each number in the range of the RNG does not correspond to a specific pattern of displayed symbols, but only to a result, and if it is a losing result, the machine can display a losing pattern of symbols in any way that it can.
link to original post
I was under the impression that this was a requirement as well but I can't find it written anywhere. It seems to be implicitly assumed, for example, when the Wizard does his deconstructions. FWIW I'm specifically talking about a machine with physical reels.
The reason that I'm asking is that I collected some data to figure out some reel weightings on a particular machine and the results don't really make sense under the assumption that the reels have to be independent.
Quote: DRichIn most Class 3 jurisdictions each reel must be independent and can not be influenced by other reels.
link to original post
That's what I thought but I couldn't find that actually written anywhere. And I collected some data which doesn't really make sense under this assumption (which is why I'm asking)
Quote: KevinAAThey're not independently stopped at some random point. Reel setting (an RNG value) means one set of stops for all the reels together.
link to original post
I understand what you are saying. How do you know this? Do you have a reference for this? DRich is saying the opposite. The Wizard seems to assume the opposite on his slot machine deconstructions on the WoO site. I'm not sure what to believe.
Quote: KevinAAThey're not independently stopped at some random point. Reel setting (an RNG value) means one set of stops for all the reels together.
link to original post
That is incorrect. As one who has programed hundreds of Nevada machines, I may know.
Quote: DRichThat is incorrect. As one who has programed hundreds of Nevada machines, I may know.
link to original post
Do you know if it's a Nevada regulation that the reels are independent, or just how they almost always work?
Quote: KevinAAThey're not independently stopped at some random point. Reel setting (an RNG value) means one set of stops for all the reels together.
link to original post
True, but that does not mean that a single RNG for the spin cannot guarantee reel independence.
To make it easy to explain, assume there are 3 reels, each with 100 equally-likely stops (note that some stops can point to the same "physical stop").
Generate a random integer from 1,000,000 to 1,999,999.
The second and third digits are used for the first reel; the fourth and fifth for the second reel; the sixth and seventh for the third reel.
Each reel's number does not depend on the numbers of the other two reels, so each reel is independent.
The question is this:
Let p be the number of RNG values that result in jackpot / jackpot / jackpot.
Assume 5p numbers result in jackpot / jackpot / one away from the jackpot, and 5p numbers result in jackpot / one away from the jackpot / jackpot.
Does this necessarily mean that 25p of the numbers will result in jackpot / one away from the jackpot / one away from the jackpot?
My "gut answer" is, for physical reel games, yes, they are independent (although technically they do not have to be, at least in Nevada), and that the Nevada requirement was removed so that newer multi-line penny slots would not have to abide by this, especially ones where a symbol can change one or more of the other symbols on that row.
Quote: SkinnyTonyQuote: DRichThat is incorrect. As one who has programed hundreds of Nevada machines, I may know.
link to original post
Do you know if it's a Nevada regulation that the reels are independent, or just how they almost always work?
link to original post
Here is a link to the current Nevada Gaming Regulations
I seem to recall that the requirement that each reel be independent was somewhere in 14.040; it was near 14.040(5), which says that, for example, in a video poker deck, each of the 52! possible orders of the 52 cards must be equally likely.
Here is a link to the Nevada Technical Standards for Gaming Devices
The only mention of "reels" is in 1.100, where it says (a) blank spaces between symbols must occupy at least 40% of the length that it would occupy if all of the stops had symbols of the same length, and (b) each stop must be in the center of its payline (there was an incident at the Sands Regency in Reno in 1999 where one of the symbols on a slot machine was so big that, even though it was off by one stop, the top of the symbol touched the payline).
Quote: ThatDonGuy
Here is a link to the current Nevada Gaming Regulations
I seem to recall that the requirement that each reel be independent was somewhere in 14.040; it was near 14.040(5), which says that, for example, in a video poker deck, each of the 52! possible orders of the 52 cards must be equally likely.
Here is a link to the Nevada Technical Standards for Gaming Devices
The only mention of "reels" is in 1.100, where it says (a) blank spaces between symbols must occupy at least 40% of the length that it would occupy if all of the stops had symbols of the same length, and (b) each stop must be in the center of its payline (there was an incident at the Sands Regency in Reno in 1999 where one of the symbols on a slot machine was so big that, even though it was off by one stop, the top of the symbol touched the payline).
link to original post
That's exactly what I found when I looked through the regulations (the part about the blanks). I was wondering if I had missed something or was looking at the wrong doc.
So is this is a regulation that changed at some point?
Quote: SkinnyTonyThat's exactly what I found when I looked through the regulations (the part about the blanks). I was wondering if I had missed something or was looking at the wrong doc.
So is this is a regulation that changed at some point?
link to original post
Like I said, I'm pretty sure that it was a Nevada regulation at some point, but assuming there was (and I remember it being in my Ten Rules Of Gambling at one point, so I doubt that I would have just imagined seeing it), it has been changed at some time before 2007.
There is a list of changes to the regulations at the website, but I have not found the one where the requirement was removed.
Why 368? Because 368^3 is just under 50 million, and the regulations say that the big jackpot can't be harder to hit than 1 in 50 million. 368^3=49,836,032 - makes the math easy.
While the three PAR sheets might not be identical, each will map one result to the jackpot symbol.
Here's the important part: To provide that "So close" result, there will be a disproportionate number of results mapped to the losing space above and below the jackpot symbol.
Add the extra second of third wheel spin time when the first two reels have any type of potential winner, and it's easy to see why some people will think that the third wheel's result can be dependent on the first two. Nope. That extra spin time is just like the drum roll before announcing a result - to create anticipation.
On a five reel machine, the PAR sheets have only about 34 results each. 34^5=45,435,424. It's probably two wheels at 34 and three at 35 - 34^2x35^3=49,563,500.
Side note: Physical reels use stepper motors to control where the wheel stops. Stepper motors are the same type of motor that positions the head on disk and optical drives. Very accurate. Very reliable.
Quote: DJTeddyBearWhy 368? Because 368^3 is just under 50 million, and the regulations say that the big jackpot can't be harder to hit than 1 in 50 million. 368^3=49,836,032 - makes the math easy.
link to original post
Never seen this requirement in Nevada. In fact, Regulation 2.070 says, "If the odds of hitting any advertised jackpot that is offered by a gaming device exceeds 100 million to one, the odds of the advertised jackpot must be prominently displayed on the award glass or video display"; there would hardly be need for such a regulation if the odds of hitting the jackpot were capped at 1 in 50 million. I have heard that three-reel Megabucks machines have 368 stops on each reel because somebody wanted the probability to be no lower than 1 / 50 million, but it is not a requirement.
Quote: SkinnyTonyQuote: DRichThat is incorrect. As one who has programed hundreds of Nevada machines, I may know.
link to original post
Do you know if it's a Nevada regulation that the reels are independent, or just how they almost always work?
link to original post
I believe it is in the Nevada Gaming Technical Standards. Games are approved if they meet the standards.
Quote: ThatDonGuyQuote: DJTeddyBearWhy 368? Because 368^3 is just under 50 million, and the regulations say that the big jackpot can't be harder to hit than 1 in 50 million. 368^3=49,836,032 - makes the math easy.
link to original post
Never seen this requirement in Nevada. In fact, Regulation 2.070 says, "If the odds of hitting any advertised jackpot that is offered by a gaming device exceeds 100 million to one, the odds of the advertised jackpot must be prominently displayed on the award glass or video display"; there would hardly be need for such a regulation if the odds of hitting the jackpot were capped at 1 in 50 million. I have heard that three-reel Megabucks machines have 368 stops on each reel because somebody wanted the probability to be no lower than 1 / 50 million, but it is not a requirement.
link to original post
If I remember right, in Nevada Megabucks is greater than 50,000,000. I don't remember for sure but for some reason 65,000,000 seems familiar. Different jurisdictions have different numbers, I think Mississippi may have been around 50,000,000.
Quote: DRichQuote: SkinnyTonyQuote: DRichThat is incorrect. As one who has programed hundreds of Nevada machines, I may know.
link to original post
Do you know if it's a Nevada regulation that the reels are independent, or just how they almost always work?
link to original post
I believe it is in the Nevada Gaming Technical Standards. Games are approved if they meet the standards.
link to original post
I did a search on "reel" and "column" in all of the Gaming Technical Standards documents listed at the Nevada Gaming Commission/Control Board website, and the only two things I could find that referred to how slot machine reels worked were the two I mentioned above.
Quote: DRichI believe it is in the Nevada Gaming Technical Standards. Games are approved if they meet the standards.
This is what the technical standard currently has to say about reels:
Quote:1.100 Reel strips.
1. Given a physical reel strip of length L units containing N physical stops, each blank space
must occupy a minimum of (L/N)*0.4 units. These blank symbols must be completely free of any portion of any adjacent symbol.
2. All non-blank and blank symbols must be centered in their respective space allocation.
(Adopted: 12/04. Effective: 1/1/05)
That's it. At least, that's all I could find. I thought maybe I was looking in the wrong document.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThis may be a little off topic, but it is my understanding that on three wheel machines (video or real), each 'reel' has 368 virtual stops that map to the ~20 symbols (or ~10 symbols and blanks).
Why 368? Because 368^3 is just under 50 million, and the regulations say that the big jackpot can't be harder to hit than 1 in 50 million. 368^3=49,836,032 - makes the math easy.
While the three PAR sheets might not be identical, each will map one result to the jackpot symbol.
Here's the important part: To provide that "So close" result, there will be a disproportionate number of results mapped to the losing space above and below the jackpot symbol.
Add the extra second of third wheel spin time when the first two reels have any type of potential winner, and it's easy to see why some people will think that the third wheel's result can be dependent on the first two. Nope. That extra spin time is just like the drum roll before announcing a result - to create anticipation.
On a five reel machine, the PAR sheets have only about 34 results each. 34^5=45,435,424. It's probably two wheels at 34 and three at 35 - 34^2x35^3=49,563,500.
Side note: Physical reels use stepper motors to control where the wheel stops. Stepper motors are the same type of motor that positions the head on disk and optical drives. Very accurate. Very reliable.
link to original post
The number of stops depends on the game. Newlifegaming has the old "IGT Bible" that lists the number of stops and strip configuration for S+ games that are a billion years old at this point. For example, the number of vritual stops for Triple Diamond and reel strips depend on program number:
and Triple Triple Diamond has all programs using 200 stops per reel and same AAA config for strips.
For newer games, it gets more complicated as even simple 1 line steppers are altering the virtual stops based on bet amount. I have never once seen a PAR sheet ever because totally top secret, but I can say with certainty that it is done. If you were to look at these par sheets that I have never once seen, you would see that the prize distribution and hit frequency change based on the bet amount.
Generally, older games were just mapping as it was, but now the game shows superjackpot on line 9 when you bet 1 line and two to superjackpot all the time when you are actually betting 9. they are completely crooked and the industry does not deserve the protections that it gets.
Quote: itsmejeffMapping a single RNG value seems not intelligent or efficient as you can modulus your way into reel stops while ensuring a uniform distribution. Especially as games use a number of different reel sets with different lengths.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThis may be a little off topic, but it is my understanding that on three wheel machines (video or real), each 'reel' has 368 virtual stops that map to the ~20 symbols (or ~10 symbols and blanks).
Why 368? Because 368^3 is just under 50 million, and the regulations say that the big jackpot can't be harder to hit than 1 in 50 million. 368^3=49,836,032 - makes the math easy.
While the three PAR sheets might not be identical, each will map one result to the jackpot symbol.
Here's the important part: To provide that "So close" result, there will be a disproportionate number of results mapped to the losing space above and below the jackpot symbol.
Add the extra second of third wheel spin time when the first two reels have any type of potential winner, and it's easy to see why some people will think that the third wheel's result can be dependent on the first two. Nope. That extra spin time is just like the drum roll before announcing a result - to create anticipation.
On a five reel machine, the PAR sheets have only about 34 results each. 34^5=45,435,424. It's probably two wheels at 34 and three at 35 - 34^2x35^3=49,563,500.
Side note: Physical reels use stepper motors to control where the wheel stops. Stepper motors are the same type of motor that positions the head on disk and optical drives. Very accurate. Very reliable.
link to original post
The number of stops depends on the game. Newlifegaming has the old "IGT Bible" that lists the number of stops and strip configuration for S+ games that are a billion years old at this point. For example, the number of vritual stops for Triple Diamond and reel strips depend on program number:
and Triple Triple Diamond has all programs using 200 stops per reel and same AAA config for strips.
For newer games, it gets more complicated as even simple 1 line steppers are altering the virtual stops based on bet amount. I have never once seen a PAR sheet ever because totally top secret, but I can say with certainty that it is done. If you were to look at these par sheets that I have never once seen, you would see that the prize distribution and hit frequency change based on the bet amount.
Generally, older games were just mapping as it was, but now the game shows superjackpot on line 9 when you bet 1 line and two to superjackpot all the time when you are actually betting 9. they are completely crooked and the industry does not deserve the protections that it gets.
link to original post
i have tons of par sheets. i found them all online. let me know it you want to know how to find them its easy as hell
Quote: heatmap
i have tons of par sheets. i found them all online. let me know it you want to know how to find them its easy as hell
link to original post
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic but if you want to PM me any useful info I would appreciate it.
I'm particularly interested in Everi's series of 9-line 3-reel games. But being able to search for PAR sheets in general would also be useful.
In particular I collected data from a little over 11k spins (9 lines, $1/line, so $9 bet) on their "Ruby Fire" game and I found that a jackpot symbol hit on reel 1, position 1 132 times, hit on reel 2 position 2 83 times, and hit on reel 3 position 1 162 times. Those positions make up "line 9", which pays the top line progressive that resets at $5000 (and was up to $18000 on the machine I was playing).
If the reels were independent that would imply that line 9 should hit all jackpot symbols a little over 1 time in 1000 (1 in 986) which would mean that 55% of the RTP is tied up in that top line progressive ($5k payout / $9k coin-in), which isn't really possible. So I would really like to see how this machine works; I don't see how the reels could be independent.
Quote: SkinnyTonyQuote: heatmap
i have tons of par sheets. i found them all online. let me know it you want to know how to find them its easy as hell
link to original post
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic but if you want to PM me any useful info I would appreciate it.
I'm particularly interested in Everi's series of 9-line 3-reel games. But being able to search for PAR sheets in general would also be useful.
In particular I collected data from a little over 11k spins (9 lines, $1/line, so $9 bet) on their "Ruby Fire" game and I found that a jackpot symbol hit on reel 1, position 1 132 times, hit on reel 2 position 2 83 times, and hit on reel 3 position 1 162 times. Those positions make up "line 9", which pays the top line progressive that resets at $5000 (and was up to $18000 on the machine I was playing).
If the reels were independent that would imply that line 9 should hit all jackpot symbols a little over 1 time in 1000 (1 in 986) which would mean that 55% of the RTP is tied up in that top line progressive ($5k payout / $9k coin-in), which isn't really possible. So I would really like to see how this machine works; I don't see how the reels could be independent.
link to original post
i have the ballys, and i think one other companies sheets posted on here you have to search through my posts somehow... the ballys are super super old.
I have IGT par sheets, but they are not named ... they have random numbers as names because the branding and naming are not relevant to the slot math machine department.
and the other ones I have are cactus jack. But those I keep a bit more of a tighter grip on those because they contain the things that the ballys and IGT sheets dont have... names and variations and are still relevant.
i dont think i have everi though... i can tell you that everi promotions are completely... how do we say... rigged ... they can control the amount of ducks in their pond..
Quote: heatmap
i dont think i have everi though... i can tell you that everi promotions are completely... how do we say... rigged ... they can control the amount of ducks in their pond..
link to original post
I used to have access to all PAR sheets for machines sold in Nevada, but no more as I am in Florida now.
Quote: DRichQuote: heatmap
i dont think i have everi though... i can tell you that everi promotions are completely... how do we say... rigged ... they can control the amount of ducks in their pond..
link to original post
I used to have access to all PAR sheets for machines sold in Nevada, but no more as I am in Florida now.
link to original post
mine are old so most likely not relevant as of this point but i would like to believe they are for some reason
