Quote: IAchance5So I'm going out to vegas in two months, and the first thing me and my friend are going to do when we get to the Paris casino (where we are staying) is each put $100 (so $200 total) into a Double Diamond machine...what would you guys do, play 2 credits on the $1 machine, or 1 credit on the $5 machine? Keep in mind that on Double Diamond machines there is no extra payoff for betting max credits.....Right now, I'm leaning towards putting the $200 into the $5 machine and taking my chances that we hit something with a double diamond on it! What do you think? Any opinions?
It's just my opinion, but I'd take the $200 and run it through the $1 machine with a single bet - by getting 200 spins instead of 40, you'd get a few more chances to have a crack at the $800 jackpot. Of course, if it's the gamble and payoff your looking for, 40 spins for a chance at 4,000 isn't terrible either. It's called gambling for a reason...
-B
Quote: IAchance5So I'm going out to vegas in two months, and the first thing me and my friend are going to do when we get to the Paris casino (where we are staying) is each put $100 (so $200 total) into a Double Diamond machine...what would you guys do, play 2 credits on the $1 machine, or 1 credit on the $5 machine? Keep in mind that on Double Diamond machines there is no extra payoff for betting max credits.....Right now, I'm leaning towards putting the $200 into the $5 machine and taking my chances that we hit something with a double diamond on it! What do you think? Any opinions?
The $5 is probably set to pay off at a higher rate, though for so comparatively few spins it won't matter much. Go for the $5 anyways. Why not be a higher roller.
Quote: IAchance5So I'm going out to vegas in two months, and the first thing me and my friend are going to do when we get to the Paris casino (where we are staying) is each put $100 (so $200 total) into a Double Diamond machine...what would you guys do, play 2 credits on the $1 machine, or 1 credit on the $5 machine? Keep in mind that on Double Diamond machines there is no extra payoff for betting max credits.....Right now, I'm leaning towards putting the $200 into the $5 machine and taking my chances that we hit something with a double diamond on it! What do you think? Any opinions?
I don't know how much this matters to you, but with only 1 credit bet at $1 denomination, you can't hit a taxable jackpot--otherwise, you could. It's actually a major bummer to have to declare a big jackpot on your federal taxes and probably have to pay taxes on it. So I'd play 200 1-credit spins. That also has the benefit of giving you the most fun for your money.
Then again, maybe not.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIt might bring you better comp value to play it on the $5 machine.
Then again, maybe not.
I think the actual comp rate would be based on the handle only, and it's the same in either case. But if a host were looking at discretionary comps, I would think that the $5 play would stand out in a helpful way. I think that's what it comes down to: whether any extra discretionary comps would outweigh the potential pain in the ass of dealing with w2gs - especially if the winnings are split 2 ways and only 1 person is filing the taxes.
Quote: rdw4potusI think the actual comp rate would be based on the handle only, and it's the same in either case. But if a host were looking at discretionary comps, I would think that the $5 play would stand out in a helpful way. I think that's what it comes down to: whether any extra discretionary comps would outweigh the potential pain in the ass of dealing with w2gs - especially if the winnings are split 2 ways and only 1 person is filing the taxes.
You might actually get less comps for the $5 machine action if the theo is lower (the machine pays better). The primary determinant of your rating will be coin-in, though. But that's kind of irrelevant--Paris is a Harrah's property, which means that amount of action will get you half a cup of comped coffee.
BTW the Brunch buffet @ PLV is the best. I never miss it.
Quote: mkl654321I don't know how much this matters to you, but with only 1 credit bet at $1 denomination, you can't hit a taxable jackpot--otherwise, you could. It's actually a major bummer to have to declare a big jackpot on your federal taxes and probably have to pay taxes on it. So I'd play 200 1-credit spins. That also has the benefit of giving you the most fun for your money.
Aren't winnings offset-able by losses up to the amount of the declared winnings? If you have a club card (at least for M and for Harrah's but I don't know about other companies), you can get a gross losses statement. It's a bummer because, in the moment, you lose the whatever percent, but at the end of the year, you can get it back (for smaller jackpots, anyways).
Not being a slots guy, I don't have much experience with taxable jackpots, but on all 3 occasions where I've won one, I've always been able to deduct losses up to the amounts. One year, though, I had to use gross losses rather than net.
Also, as far as earning comps, isn't it the total play you give rather than the initial buy-in that earns the comps? In that case, you'd want the machine with the higher payout (as if you wouldn't anyways) so, if you're wanting to play the original buy-in to either jackpot or zero, you'd want the denomination that pays out the best.
I know that varies, but wasn't there another thread that calculated $1 as a better payout than $5?
Quote: mkl654321I don't know how much this matters to you, but with only 1 credit bet at $1 denomination, you can't hit a taxable jackpot--otherwise, you could. It's actually a major bummer to have to declare a big jackpot on your federal taxes and probably have to pay taxes on it. So I'd play 200 1-credit spins. That also has the benefit of giving you the most fun for your money.
Same on the tax implications. Why would you play 200 X 1? Did you mean you are guaranteed that before credits can zero? It actually gives you max-min of spins which is not necessarily a benefit or more fun.
Quote: dmSame on the tax implications. Why would you play 200 X 1? Did you mean you are guaranteed that before credits can zero? It actually gives you max-min of spins which is not necessarily a benefit or more fun.
Because while you would have the same overall expectation as playing a larger number of credits, you would be less likely to hit a large enough jackpot to trigger a W2-G. It's true that you only have tax liability on your net winnings, but it is a major pain in the ass to have to explain taxable jackpots and reconcile them against slot club records. PLUS, and this is a large additional irritant, you now have to file a 1040 long form instead of whatever shorter version you could otherwise have used.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerAren't winnings offset-able by losses up to the amount of the declared winnings? If you have a club card (at least for M and for Harrah's but I don't know about other companies), you can get a gross losses statement.
Yes, you can offset winnings with losses but the casino win/loss statement won't hold up if you get audited. The IRS has no way of knowing when/if you played with a card and if you included all of those win/loss statements. And bear in mind that every win is taxable, regardless of if you received a W2-G. The only acceptable way I know of to show your losses is to keep a gambling diary that shows the date, location, type of game played, and the net total.
Some states also don't allow for deductions for wins either, (Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, West Virginia, and Wisconsin with 4 others that have partial deductions and Ohio, which currently does not have a deduction but will starting in 2013).
Quote: mkl654321Because while you would have the same overall expectation as playing a larger number of credits, you would be less likely to hit a large enough jackpot to trigger a W2-G. It's true that you only have tax liability on your net winnings, but it is a major pain in the ass to have to explain taxable jackpots and reconcile them against slot club records. PLUS, and this is a large additional irritant, you now have to file a 1040 long form instead of whatever shorter version you could otherwise have used.
Did you not understand "same on the tax implications"? You did not explain why you think he should play exactly 200 hands.
Quote: PaulEWogYes, you can offset winnings with losses but the casino win/loss statement won't hold up if you get audited. The IRS has no way of knowing when/if you played with a card and if you included all of those win/loss statements. And bear in mind that every win is taxable, regardless of if you received a W2-G. The only acceptable way I know of to show your losses is to keep a gambling diary that shows the date, location, type of game played, and the net total.
Some states also don't allow for deductions for wins either, (Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, West Virginia, and Wisconsin with 4 others that have partial deductions and Ohio, which currently does not have a deduction but will starting in 2013).
All of what you say is correct, but outside of major jackpots (six figures or more), I can't imagine there being any practical effect.
In the one case where I used gross losses rather than net losses, the margin to my taxable income was on the order of about $800, which translated into a marginal icrease in my overall tax payment of around $300. Given my tax bill that year, it doesn't surprise me that the $300 wasn't "noticed."
If that year had been audited, my options would have been: 1) just write a check for $300 plus penalty and wash my hands of it, or 2) make the case that my losses at other games that the statement didn't list (I think the statement, at the time, only tabulated slots wins/losses where I used my card) made up the $800 several times over, if you really want to go there, Uncle Sam. So, not enough risk to warrant giving it a closer look.
As on-the-floor taxable jackpots approach $1,200, the issue gets smaller and smaller. I don't know at all, but if I had to venture a guess, I would think the IRS wouldn't even give a second thought to any reported jackpot of less than, oh, $100,000 or so.
Quote: bbvk05As others have said: consider the tax implications before playing. Tax issues on the W2-G are a gigantic pain in the ass and are not worth it unless you really get some kind of enjoyment out of the possibility of a big jackpot. I would play a machine where the bulk of the payouts are under 1200, and maybe even the top payout is under 1200.
I have to fill out the 1040 and a zillion schedules every year, so it's not that much to me. If you write off mortgage interest (or use any other itemized deduction), you have to use the 1040 anyways.
But if someone has never filled one out before, I can see it being a pain. But, the 1040A and the 1040EZ are just degenerate versions of the 1040, so it's not like the end-of-the-day result will be any different. Hell, you may even find something in the 1040 that the degenerate forms skip over!
Quote: dmDid you not understand "same on the tax implications"?
I think it's you who is not understanding. First, the OP has $200 and he wants to play it through and be done. $200/$1 per spin=200 spins. Second, the taxes owed are identical ("same on tax implications"). But one method is easy and the other can be a big pain. If a w-2g is the only thing that pushes you to need to fill out a 1040 long form to file your taxes, that REALLY SUCKS when you could have won the same amount and used a 1040EZ by playing a lower denomination and avoiding the w-2g. The difference in forms is probably the equivalent of about 1-2 hours in time if you're doing your own taxes or $50-75 in fees if you're paying someone else to do them.
I find it amazing that someone said they didn't get audited for not reporting a w-2g on their taxes. If the IRS receives an income form from an employer, casino, etc. for an individual and that income isn't stated on their tax return it almost always get's flagged and you receive a letter from the IRS to notify you of the discrepancy. When the amount of income and forms on your return doesn't agree with the IRS' records it gets caught by a computer, but normally this can take months for you to hear about it.
Quote: clarkacalYes you can deduct losses up to the amount of winnings but only on schedule A. If you don't already have enough deductions to itemize and use schedule A then you can't claim the losses and you pay taxes on the full amount.
I find it amazing that someone said they didn't get audited for not reporting a w-2g on their taxes. If the IRS receives an income form from an employer, casino, etc. for an individual and that income isn't stated on their tax return it almost always get's flagged and you receive a letter from the IRS to notify you of the discrepancy. When the amount of income and forms on your return doesn't agree with the IRS' records it gets caught by a computer, but normally this can take months for you to hear about it.
You don't not-report it. You deduct for losses. The 1040 is supported with the W2G, the Sch. A is supported with the loss statement provided by the players club.
EDIT: You can still use your standard deduction even if you fill out a 1040. You have to go through the exercise of seeing which deduction is greater - the standard or the itemized - but on the 1040, you can still your your standard, and if you do, you don't have to show any itemization. Yes, this means your tax benefit is lessened in comparison to not having won, but you did increase your income by winning a jackpot, so you're better off overall. Not getting a full tax benefit seems a silly reason for not wanting to win a jackpot.
Quote: clarkacal
I find it amazing that someone said they didn't get audited for not reporting a w-2g on their taxes. If the IRS receives an income form from an employer, casino, etc. for an individual and that income isn't stated on their tax return it almost always get's flagged and you receive a letter from the IRS to notify you of the discrepancy. When the amount of income and forms on your return doesn't agree with the IRS' records it gets caught by a computer, but normally this can take months for you to hear about it.
I missed one w-2g in 2007, and just got the IRS notice about it this last summer. Taxes owed were about $350, interest, penalties and fees were another $180ish. son-of-a-bitch!
Quote: rdw4potusI think it's you who is not understanding. First, the OP has $200 and he wants to play it through and be done. $200/$1 per spin=200 spins. Second, the taxes owed are identical ("same on tax implications"). But one method is easy and the other can be a big pain. If a w-2g is the only thing that pushes you to need to fill out a 1040 long form to file your taxes, that REALLY SUCKS when you could have won the same amount and used a 1040EZ by playing a lower denomination and avoiding the w-2g. The difference in forms is probably the equivalent of about 1-2 hours in time if you're doing your own taxes or $50-75 in fees if you're paying someone else to do them.
Are you serious? Isn't there a slight possibility he will win a credit or 2 from the 200 spins? But he has to quit even if has 300 credits
built up? Now, if he just needs points earned from 200 coin in that will certainly be accomplished. I'm not sure why he has to be done at that point. I think it is more likely that he wants to establish a stop loss at 200 rather than a goal of pushing the button 200 times. Is this understandable?
Quote: dmDid you not understand "same on the tax implications"? You did not explain why you think he should play exactly 200 hands.
Sigh. He's the one who said he wanted to run $200 through one machine or the other. If my recommendation is that he play a $1 machine one coin at a time, then I am saying that he should play exactly 200 hands/spins. Please refer to the following equation:
200 X 1 = 200
I have two W2-G's this year, one for $4,000 and one for $2,000. I plan to report both and deduct the entire amount as gambling losses on schedule C. (This is true; I have lost that much but I don't keep a diary). Do you think this will raise red flags with the IRS? (Or, I'm really asking, will they come after me with an audit or request for more information?) I really don't think $6,000 is enough for them to bother with, and anyway, it just puts my barely over the standard deduction since I am a semi-broke student with little to no income. I haven't started my taxes yet this year so there may be more interlocking issues that come up, but I doubt it.
I also am planning to file a state tax return for Indiana where I hit my $4,000 JP hoping to get some of that $136 withholding back. Do you think this is worth it?
Quote: teddysSince we're talking about tax stuff on this thread, I have a compliance question:
I have two W2-G's this year, one for $4,000 and one for $2,000. I plan to report both and deduct the entire amount as gambling losses on schedule C. (This is true; I have lost that much but I don't keep a diary). Do you think this will raise red flags with the IRS? (Or, I'm really asking, will they come after me with an audit or request for more information?) I really don't think $6,000 is enough for them to bother with, and anyway, it just puts my barely over the standard deduction since I am a semi-broke student with little to no income. I haven't started my taxes yet this year so there may be more interlocking issues that come up, but I doubt it.
I also am planning to file a state tax return for Indiana where I hit my $4,000 JP hoping to get some of that $136 withholding back. Do you think this is worth it?
My first instinct is yes, this will be a problem. When you do a schedule C you report using a specific business code. I'm not sure that there is a business code for gambling and if there is, you would have to show a net income for at least the first year for them to classify it as a business. If you decide to put it under a fake business code like janitorial services, they probably wouldn't question the schedule C but would wonder why the income for gambling was not reported elsewhere on the return.
If you have little to no income there is a good chance that $6000 still wouldn't be taxed after standard decuction and personal exemption, and none of these issues would even come up.
Quote: dmAre you serious? Isn't there a slight possibility he will win a credit or 2 from the 200 spins? But he has to quit even if has 300 credits
built up? Now, if he just needs points earned from 200 coin in that will certainly be accomplished. I'm not sure why he has to be done at that point. I think it is more likely that he wants to establish a stop loss at 200 rather than a goal of pushing the button 200 times. Is this understandable?
That's understandable, and it's what I'd personally do. It just isn't what I took the OP to be meaning. Either way, I'd play the $1 machine at 1 credit per spin to avoid having to deal with the extra tax paperwork associated with form w-2g.
Quote: teddysSince we're talking about tax stuff on this thread, I have a compliance question:
I have two W2-G's this year, one for $4,000 and one for $2,000. I plan to report both and deduct the entire amount as gambling losses on schedule C. (This is true; I have lost that much but I don't keep a diary). Do you think this will raise red flags with the IRS? (Or, I'm really asking, will they come after me with an audit or request for more information?) I really don't think $6,000 is enough for them to bother with, and anyway, it just puts my barely over the standard deduction since I am a semi-broke student with little to no income. I haven't started my taxes yet this year so there may be more interlocking issues that come up, but I doubt it.
I also am planning to file a state tax return for Indiana where I hit my $4,000 JP hoping to get some of that $136 withholding back. Do you think this is worth it?
Filing as a professional gambler under a Schedule C opens up a HUGE can of worms. The provenance and record-keeping requirements go up--way up. As a Schedule C filer, you are subject to self-employment tax (15.7%, last time I looked) as well as regular income tax on your earnings.
Just file a regular 1040, don't report any gambling income since you didn't actually have any, and see what happens. Chances are, it'll be nothing. The worst-case scenario is that you are called upon to prove your offsetting losses, and won't be able to, and then you'll have to pay a tiny amount of tax plus an equally tiny penalty (given that you have little or no other income).
For similar reasons, go ahead and file your state tax return and get that $136 back. If you're a starving student, that money's worth the effort.
Quote: mkl654321
For similar reasons, go ahead and file your state tax return and get that $136 back. If you're a starving student, that money's worth the effort.
I don't know a lot of starving students who have $6,000 in gambling losses... or maybe that's why he's starving.
Quote: teddysI plan to report both and deduct the entire amount as gambling losses on schedule C. (This is true; I have lost that much but I don't keep a diary). Do you think this will raise red flags with the IRS?
You might want to read this article on filing as a professional gambler before taking that route. I don't know for certain, but I suspect this would indeed raise red flags with the IRS.
Likewise with failing to report the income, unless your name and SS# isn't listed on those w2g's. I recently had to re-file my 2007 taxes because they said they never received them. The tax forms were easy and I just re-printed them but I would have had to do a lot of digging to come up with all the 1099 type forms so I figured I'd see if they had them on file. They did, and it only took me a couple of minutes to get it taken care of. The point is that if your info is on a form sent in by someone else it is probably already in your file and if your return doesn't show it then there is probably a pretty good chance they will contact you about it.
Quote: teddysI also am planning to file a state tax return for Indiana where I hit my $4,000 JP hoping to get some of that $136 withholding back. Do you think this is worth it?
Are you an Indiana resident? If so there is no deduction for gambling losses, (but that may change; I've been in contact with my state Senator who appears to be at least somewhat interested in the issue but I doubt it will happen this year).
If you are not a resident you'll probably have to contact the Indiana Dept. of Revenue to see what the procedure is. About 15 years ago I had to deal with them on something similar and it basically boiled down to Indiana wanted the revenue unless you could prove you already paid it to someone else, such as through another states taxes.
Quote: mkl654321Sigh. He's the one who said he wanted to run $200 through one machine or the other. If my recommendation is that he play a $1 machine one coin at a time, then I am saying that he should play exactly 200 hands/spins. Please refer to the following equation:
200 X 1 = 200
He did not say that, but you have convinced everyone you are a great mathematician.
Quote: mkl654321Sigh. He's the one who said he wanted to run $200 through one machine or the other. If my recommendation is that he play a $1 machine one coin at a time, then I am saying that he should play exactly 200 hands/spins. Please refer to the following equation:
200 X 1 = 200
Hey, it's a good thing there are 2 of them because keeping count to 200 could be tricky, with the excitement of hits and near misses.