Class II games: Persistent State Features & RTP
January 26th, 2025 at 7:50:32 AM
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I've been making my rounds across the gambling intarwebz asking some questions and now I'm back here to ask something else that is probably super pedantic (sorry in advance).
I'm going to assume given the forum I'm in that we all fundamentally understand what a Class II gaming device is. That said, whether discussing bingo-based games or LTVs, there are certainly variations of persistent state games which appear on floors where those are the dominant or sole gaming devices. These may be collected items towards a bonus or progressive value as is often seen on the "red screen" games prevalent in Oklahoma, but also variations of games like Scarab or Kraken Unleashed within the confines of an LTV where the next win is ostensibly guaranteed. So the obvious question then becomes: "How do these features work with Class II machines?" I assume this might be a complicated answer that depends on the nature of the game (bingo vs. LTV vs. Historical Racing) but also that it might be a simple answer like "They are all fake and simply part of the way the game chooses to display wins."
Second part to this relates to the RTP of the games. Most times these are brought up, the general consensus seems to be that they pay out worse than traditional RNG-based slots because "why wouldn't they?" But the popular view point on the red screen games in Oklahoma seems to be that those games often pay out more, or at least smaller amounts more often. Gamble Smart (which I recognize is just a YouTube channel run by former slot techs) stated in a video that bingo based games may have as low of a hold as 5%, which seems absolutely bonkers to me if true. I understand that those specific games are mostly programmed to provide payback through the consolation prizes (e.g. "kite pattern at 38 balls = 40 credits" or what have you) vs. the competitive prizes against other players, which makes it somewhat difficult to calculate these though I'm sure there's some advanced math that gets you in the ballpark. How big is the variation in RTP for these games, and does the wager or denomination level affect this, if at all?
I'm going to assume given the forum I'm in that we all fundamentally understand what a Class II gaming device is. That said, whether discussing bingo-based games or LTVs, there are certainly variations of persistent state games which appear on floors where those are the dominant or sole gaming devices. These may be collected items towards a bonus or progressive value as is often seen on the "red screen" games prevalent in Oklahoma, but also variations of games like Scarab or Kraken Unleashed within the confines of an LTV where the next win is ostensibly guaranteed. So the obvious question then becomes: "How do these features work with Class II machines?" I assume this might be a complicated answer that depends on the nature of the game (bingo vs. LTV vs. Historical Racing) but also that it might be a simple answer like "They are all fake and simply part of the way the game chooses to display wins."
Second part to this relates to the RTP of the games. Most times these are brought up, the general consensus seems to be that they pay out worse than traditional RNG-based slots because "why wouldn't they?" But the popular view point on the red screen games in Oklahoma seems to be that those games often pay out more, or at least smaller amounts more often. Gamble Smart (which I recognize is just a YouTube channel run by former slot techs) stated in a video that bingo based games may have as low of a hold as 5%, which seems absolutely bonkers to me if true. I understand that those specific games are mostly programmed to provide payback through the consolation prizes (e.g. "kite pattern at 38 balls = 40 credits" or what have you) vs. the competitive prizes against other players, which makes it somewhat difficult to calculate these though I'm sure there's some advanced math that gets you in the ballpark. How big is the variation in RTP for these games, and does the wager or denomination level affect this, if at all?
January 26th, 2025 at 8:16:10 AM
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From what I've seen, the "red screen" games are not truly persistent state. (Yes, I've looked carefully.)
The only Class II plays I've seen are based on progressives.
I'm happy to be corrected in my misunderstandings.
The only Class II plays I've seen are based on progressives.
I'm happy to be corrected in my misunderstandings.
May the cards fall in your favor.
January 26th, 2025 at 9:11:27 AM
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Sorry, I just saw the second part regarding RTP.
From what I've seen, the gaming compact revenue sharing agreements take a bite out of the Class III hold. Class II revenues are usually not subject to such revenue sharing agreements, so the RTP can be higher.
Anecdotally, this matches what I've heard from many players - the games are a little unusual at Class II stores, but their money lasts longer, so they're OK with it.
In my neighborhood, the Class II shop advertises 95% RTP (average across the floor), where most of the Class III and non-tribal shops are around 91%. My experience in other markets aligns with this.
From what I've seen, the gaming compact revenue sharing agreements take a bite out of the Class III hold. Class II revenues are usually not subject to such revenue sharing agreements, so the RTP can be higher.
Anecdotally, this matches what I've heard from many players - the games are a little unusual at Class II stores, but their money lasts longer, so they're OK with it.
In my neighborhood, the Class II shop advertises 95% RTP (average across the floor), where most of the Class III and non-tribal shops are around 91%. My experience in other markets aligns with this.
May the cards fall in your favor.
January 26th, 2025 at 9:56:12 AM
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Quote: Dieter
In my neighborhood, the Class II shop advertises 95% RTP (average across the floor), where most of the Class III and non-tribal shops are around 91%. My experience in other markets aligns with this.
Wow, a 95% RTP across the floor is fantastic. Are you comfortable sharing the jurisdiction where you saw that?
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
January 26th, 2025 at 10:53:32 AM
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Quote: DRichQuote: Dieter
In my neighborhood, the Class II shop advertises 95% RTP (average across the floor), where most of the Class III and non-tribal shops are around 91%. My experience in other markets aligns with this.
Wow, a 95% RTP across the floor is fantastic. Are you comfortable sharing the jurisdiction where you saw that?
link to original post
"Everyone" knows I'm from Wisconsin.
Last I checked, there was only one property in the state that operated exclusively Class II - Ho Chunk Madison.
Their website does (currently) have a page talking up the 95% average return. There are also billboards, if you're in the area.
https://ho-chunkgaming.com/madison/
May the cards fall in your favor.
January 26th, 2025 at 11:31:50 AM
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Quote: DieterQuote: DRichQuote: Dieter
In my neighborhood, the Class II shop advertises 95% RTP (average across the floor), where most of the Class III and non-tribal shops are around 91%. My experience in other markets aligns with this.
Wow, a 95% RTP across the floor is fantastic. Are you comfortable sharing the jurisdiction where you saw that?
link to original post
"Everyone" knows I'm from Wisconsin.
Last I checked, there was only one property in the state that operated exclusively Class II - Ho Chunk Madison.
Their website does (currently) have a page talking up the 95% average return. There are also billboards, if you're in the area.
https://ho-chunkgaming.com/madison/
link to original post
I spent a fair amount of time working at the Grand casinos in Wisconsin in the early 1990's. They were some of the first non-Nevada casinos to install our player tracking system. I think it was Mille Lacs, Hinckly, Fond Du Lac.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
January 26th, 2025 at 12:12:52 PM
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Quote: DRich
I spent a fair amount of time working at the Grand casinos in Wisconsin in the early 1990's. They were some of the first non-Nevada casinos to install our player tracking system. I think it was Mille Lacs, Hinckly, Fond Du Lac.
link to original post
I believe those properties may be slightly to the west of the traditional and customary border...
May the cards fall in your favor.
January 26th, 2025 at 3:53:21 PM
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Quote: DieterQuote: DRich
I spent a fair amount of time working at the Grand casinos in Wisconsin in the early 1990's. They were some of the first non-Nevada casinos to install our player tracking system. I think it was Mille Lacs, Hinckly, Fond Du Lac.
link to original post
I believe those properties may be slightly to the west of the traditional and customary border...
link to original post
Let's face it, if you don't live there Wisconsin and Minnesota are the same.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
January 26th, 2025 at 6:10:59 PM
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Quote: DieterQuote: DRich
I spent a fair amount of time working at the Grand casinos in Wisconsin in the early 1990's. They were some of the first non-Nevada casinos to install our player tracking system. I think it was Mille Lacs, Hinckly, Fond Du Lac.
link to original post
I believe those properties may be slightly to the west of the traditional and customary border...
link to original post
Wisconsin has the Mighty Turtle! I remember spreading rail-to-rail in that place.
Funny, the dealerette apparently realized I was counting, and her remedy was to deal faster and faster, sure that I could never keep up with her highly trained and agile hands. It was heads-up and I had to be getting >300 hands per hour.
January 26th, 2025 at 6:31:07 PM
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bingo:
"traditional" (let's call it that): play bingo, winner gets a prize, and the "losers" are awarded secondary prizes based upon patterns they match. highest paying pattern within certain number of numbers allowed is awarded.
vgt: bingo numbers are called in column order. can win multiple times per face.
ags: no competitive bingo. only win the first pattern matched even if you also match a higher paying pattern later. for example, if complete inside frame pays 200 and inside 4 corners pays 15, you could only get inside frame by getting a corner last. otherwise, you would get inside 4 corners. (ags uses arbitrary patterns, so there is no inside frame or four corners though).
hold:
depends on the company. I do not have par sheets and have never ever seen one in my life. i am not even sure what they are. return on bingo is nearly exact same amount as class iii. in some weird cases, higher bets (4 "lines") may pay slightly less than lower bets (2 "lines"). in some cases bingo might have a marginally higher rtp and hit rate, but not enough for anyone to care.
at least one company has higher minimum RTP for bingo than it for its class III games. incredible technologies, the people behind those golf games with the trackball that they usedta have in bars, lists lower and upper range for rtp on its website. bingo is 90%-95% (same with hhr). class III can be as low as 85% for same game. this is also true for at least one other company, but I do not feel like looking and definitely do not have game docs. oh, weird story to go along with this. I know of a case where the class II par sheet gives the complete game information (%rtp from bonus, bonus frequency, reel distribution, and everything) while the class III one is just one page with almost no information on it. i found that funny.
fate of 8 power wheel by incredible technologies:
class ii:
class iii:
keep in mind that bingo is not compacted. igra makes bingo legal. bingo is not included in gaming compacts and is not subject to fee agreements under a compact with the state.
persistent state: generally does not exist. I have seen bingo games that had persistent-like elements, but the cash value would be awarded if you cashed out of the game. usually it is completely fake. the only wins are those determined by the bingo pattern. vgt has games that collect diamonds or coins or whatever, but they are just paying the regular wins through a "bonus" game. the pick will always be what the pattern matches.
probability spreadsheet that should be correct:
https://26d.xyz/bingo_probability.xlsx
"traditional" (let's call it that): play bingo, winner gets a prize, and the "losers" are awarded secondary prizes based upon patterns they match. highest paying pattern within certain number of numbers allowed is awarded.
vgt: bingo numbers are called in column order. can win multiple times per face.
ags: no competitive bingo. only win the first pattern matched even if you also match a higher paying pattern later. for example, if complete inside frame pays 200 and inside 4 corners pays 15, you could only get inside frame by getting a corner last. otherwise, you would get inside 4 corners. (ags uses arbitrary patterns, so there is no inside frame or four corners though).
hold:
depends on the company. I do not have par sheets and have never ever seen one in my life. i am not even sure what they are. return on bingo is nearly exact same amount as class iii. in some weird cases, higher bets (4 "lines") may pay slightly less than lower bets (2 "lines"). in some cases bingo might have a marginally higher rtp and hit rate, but not enough for anyone to care.
at least one company has higher minimum RTP for bingo than it for its class III games. incredible technologies, the people behind those golf games with the trackball that they usedta have in bars, lists lower and upper range for rtp on its website. bingo is 90%-95% (same with hhr). class III can be as low as 85% for same game. this is also true for at least one other company, but I do not feel like looking and definitely do not have game docs. oh, weird story to go along with this. I know of a case where the class II par sheet gives the complete game information (%rtp from bonus, bonus frequency, reel distribution, and everything) while the class III one is just one page with almost no information on it. i found that funny.
fate of 8 power wheel by incredible technologies:
class ii:
class iii:
keep in mind that bingo is not compacted. igra makes bingo legal. bingo is not included in gaming compacts and is not subject to fee agreements under a compact with the state.
persistent state: generally does not exist. I have seen bingo games that had persistent-like elements, but the cash value would be awarded if you cashed out of the game. usually it is completely fake. the only wins are those determined by the bingo pattern. vgt has games that collect diamonds or coins or whatever, but they are just paying the regular wins through a "bonus" game. the pick will always be what the pattern matches.
probability spreadsheet that should be correct:
https://26d.xyz/bingo_probability.xlsx
Last edited by: itsmejeff on Jan 26, 2025
January 27th, 2025 at 4:00:32 AM
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itsmejeff, you missed the LnW/SG/Bally model. Bingos are straight line, considered as the first found, when patterns are checked top to bottom, left to right, then diagonals (I could have the order wrong). The prize awarded is based on multiplying together the numbers that form the winning pattern, then looking up that product in the prize table. 4 corners in 4 balls is a progressive.
All the times I've gotten that high value G column bingo, the payout evaluation has considered a crossing bingo first. (The last drawn ball simultaneously completed two lines.)
All the times I've gotten that high value G column bingo, the payout evaluation has considered a crossing bingo first. (The last drawn ball simultaneously completed two lines.)
Wisconsin has more lakes. Minnesota caps maximum machine RTP and doesn't allow pitch blackjack. Pretty sure Wisconsin has a smaller border with Iowa, so I'm calling a win.
May the cards fall in your favor.
January 27th, 2025 at 5:09:35 AM
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That is tremendous info, itsmejeff. Absolutely clarified just about all my queries on the bingo slot end. I guess I don't care enough about other non-RNG/Bingo games to ask; sorry Kentucky residents.
I will mention that I asked this elsewhere (I did mention that in post #1 - I mean, this is a topic where info to find isn't that easy to get) and one thing a poster elsewhere brought up was patent US11600148B2. Long and the short of it seems to be that IGT has a patent where it basically can choose to sub in cards with additional free spaces to "simulate" a persistent state Class II game. Kind of interesting but I would guess the only way to see if it was working was to find a relevant game and look at the cards it utilized on the most recent game. I'd post a link, but I haven't had enough posts on the forum yet to do so. Also very unlikely that it would be relevant to the majority of the machines on the floor for the most part as it was only filed in 2021 and granted in March 2023.
I will mention that I asked this elsewhere (I did mention that in post #1 - I mean, this is a topic where info to find isn't that easy to get) and one thing a poster elsewhere brought up was patent US11600148B2. Long and the short of it seems to be that IGT has a patent where it basically can choose to sub in cards with additional free spaces to "simulate" a persistent state Class II game. Kind of interesting but I would guess the only way to see if it was working was to find a relevant game and look at the cards it utilized on the most recent game. I'd post a link, but I haven't had enough posts on the forum yet to do so. Also very unlikely that it would be relevant to the majority of the machines on the floor for the most part as it was only filed in 2021 and granted in March 2023.
