how to determine the value of buying bonus game

Hi,
Many slot games offer a buy bonus feature, which comes with its own bet multiplier. every game has a different bet multiplier. For example, if you place a $10 bet and the bonus bet multiplier is 100x, you would need to spend $1,000 to buy the bonus game. I'm interested in finding out if anyone knows how to determine the bonus bet multiplier, such as 100x or 250x.


thanks,

Quote: newowner

Hi,
Many slot games offer a buy bonus feature, which comes with its own bet multiplier. every game has a different bet multiplier. For example, if you place a $10 bet and the bonus bet multiplier is 100x, you would need to spend $1,000 to buy the bonus game. I'm interested in finding out if anyone knows how to determine the bonus bet multiplier, such as 100x or 250x.


thanks,
link to original post

I have not seen such high buy multipliers for online games. BTG games usually have a 60x to 100x buy cost. White Rabbit = 100x. Big Bucks Bandits Megaways = 60x.

The buy cost is based on the expected winnings of the bonus round. As a rule of thumb, the IGT bonus rounds paid about 60x the base bet. Golden Egypt and Scarab are IGT games where I expected to get 60x. I have not actually studies other games because the bonus is just part of the RTP. But I collected data on these bonus rounds because I needed the bonus value to model the game.

For the BTG games, the RTP is slightly better for buying the bonus versus playing the base game. For example, if BTG charges 60x for the bonus round, they might expect the bonus to pay 58 bets back. This makes the RTP 58/60 = 96.67%, whereas the base game RTP might be 96.00%.

Are you seeing Bonus Buy games in B&M casinos? One online site has a separate tab for Bonus Buy Games:
Peaky Blinders -- White Hat Studio
Thundering Gorilla -- Lightning Box
Moriarty Megaways -- IGT
Thundering Shenlong -- Lightning Box
Hot Hot Blazing Lock Fire Pots -- Light and Wonder
Ultimate Fire Link Olvera Street -- Light and Wonder
Monopoly Money Grab -- Light and Wonder
Reel 'Em In Tournament Fishing -- Light and Wonder
Ultimate Fire Link River Walk -- Light and Wonder
Wrigley's World -- Red Tiger
Big Bucks Bandits Megaways -- Reel-Play
Bison Valley -- IGT
Bankin' Bacon -- White Hat Studio
Big Catch Bass Fishing -- White Hat Studio
Bonanza Falls -- Big Time Gaming

Big Catch Bass Fishing is 100x. Base RTP 95.01% versus Bonus Buy RTP 95.05%. I have not played all of these games. I don't know whether any require more than 100x to buy a bonus game.

I used to play a lot of Bonus Buy games, but I have played almost zero in the last year because I had better options. I did play a Light and Wonder game at over $3000 per buy one time because I was in a leaderboard situation and this was the fastest way to get coin in. I got crushed on that play. I played another game at $1500 per spin for a jackpot party. I received jackpots on some games where I lost money.

Just to add to Mental's already complete reply: sometimes, in the game info, you can find the expected RTP when you use the "bonus buy" feature.

Divide the average bonus value by target RTP. If the average bonus is 50x wager and the target RTP is 90%, then 50/0.90 - 55.55, which you round down to 55x wager (90.9% RTP on buy a feature). The less the bonus costs, the lower the average win.

If you want to go the other way, check for info in the game rules. Just remember that the volatility is very high so the median feature amount will be much less than the average (left skew? I can never remember which one is which). If you spend 500x wager for a 97% RTP, the average will be 500*0.97, but you aint getting near that on the typical buy a feature. That average skewed by a very small number of 5000x wager and 10,000x base wager (regular spin) wins.

Quote: Mental

Big Catch Bass Fishing is 100x. Base RTP 95.01% versus Bonus Buy RTP 95.05%. I have not played all of these games. I don't know whether any require more than 100x to buy a bonus game.
link to original post

Some higher tier buy a features (guaranteed super mega feature with sticky multipliers and three wild reels per spin!) can go into hundreds of times wager amount. The people who are playing online slots with house money frequently purchase them.

Quote: itsmejeff

Divide the average bonus value by target RTP. If the average bonus is 50x wager and the target RTP is 90%, then 50/0.90 - 55.55, which you round down to 55x wager (90.9% RTP on buy a feature). The less the bonus costs, the lower the average win.

If you want to go the other way, check for info in the game rules. Just remember that the volatility is very high so the median feature amount will be much less than the average (left skew? I can never remember which one is which). If you spend 500x wager for a 97% RTP, the average will be 500*0.97, but you aint getting near that on the typical buy a feature. That average skewed by a very small number of 5000x wager and 10,000x base wager (regular spin) wins.

Quote: Mental

Big Catch Bass Fishing is 100x. Base RTP 95.01% versus Bonus Buy RTP 95.05%. I have not played all of these games. I don't know whether any require more than 100x to buy a bonus game.
link to original post

Some higher tier buy a features (guaranteed super mega feature with sticky multipliers and three wild reels per spin!) can go into hundreds of times wager amount. The people who are playing online slots with house money frequently purchase them.
link to original post

I have not played any high variance buy-bonus games. I suppose they might exist. White Rabbit has a moderately valuable feature if your stack reach a height of 12, but the variance of a bonus feature is probably around 5. I think Bandits has a similar variance. Most base slot games have a variance of 20-40. So, the variance of bought bonuses is high when stated it dollars^2, but it is low in relation to the required bets units^2.

It may be useful for a well-bankrolled AP to know about these games. I don't think they are the most valuable tools in the toolbox. Recreational players might enjoy always being in a bonus round because bonus rounds often have play features that the base game does not offer.

I am not very familiar with the buy bonus games but in the old days when a slot gave you the choice of taking a fixed value payout or x number of spins it was almost always better to take the spins.

Quote: itsmejeff

Divide the average bonus value by target RTP. If the average bonus is 50x wager and the target RTP is 90%, then 50/0.90 - 55.55, which you round down to 55x wager (90.9% RTP on buy a feature). The less the bonus costs, the lower the average win.

If you want to go the other way, check for info in the game rules. Just remember that the volatility is very high so the median feature amount will be much less than the average (left skew? I can never remember which one is which). If you spend 500x wager for a 97% RTP, the average will be 500*0.97, but you aint getting near that on the typical buy a feature. That average skewed by a very small number of 5000x wager and 10,000x base wager (regular spin) wins.

Quote: Mental

Big Catch Bass Fishing is 100x. Base RTP 95.01% versus Bonus Buy RTP 95.05%. I have not played all of these games. I don't know whether any require more than 100x to buy a bonus game.
link to original post

Some higher tier buy a features (guaranteed super mega feature with sticky multipliers and three wild reels per spin!) can go into hundreds of times wager amount. The people who are playing online slots with house money frequently purchase them.
link to original post

thanks everyone to reply .

I have two questions:
1. how to calculate the average bonus value ?

2. is it possible do it in this way=> 1/ probability of triggering bonus game?
e.g. if the probability of triggering the bonus game in the main game is 1/100, the value of the opportunity would be 1/0.01 = 100. Therefore, if you buy the bonus game directly without waiting to trigger it in the main game, you would need to pay 100x bet multiplier.

Lucky Koi -- IGT

Quote: Mental

Quote: newowner

Are you seeing Bonus Buy games in B&M casinos? One online site has a separate tab for Bonus Buy Games:
Peaky Blinders -- White Hat Studio
Thundering Gorilla -- Lightning Box
Moriarty Megaways -- IGT
Thundering Shenlong -- Lightning Box
Hot Hot Blazing Lock Fire Pots -- Light and Wonder
Ultimate Fire Link Olvera Street -- Light and Wonder
Monopoly Money Grab -- Light and Wonder
Reel 'Em In Tournament Fishing -- Light and Wonder
Ultimate Fire Link River Walk -- Light and Wonder
Wrigley's World -- Red Tiger
Big Bucks Bandits Megaways -- Reel-Play
Bison Valley -- IGT
Bankin' Bacon -- White Hat Studio
Big Catch Bass Fishing -- White Hat Studio
Bonanza Falls -- Big Time Gaming

Big Catch Bass Fishing is 100x. Base RTP 95.01% versus Bonus Buy RTP 95.05%. I have not played all of these games. I don't know whether any require more than 100x to buy a bonus game.

I used to play a lot of Bonus Buy games, but I have played almost zero in the last year because I had better options. I did play a Light and Wonder game at over $3000 per buy one time because I was in a leaderboard situation and this was the fastest way to get coin in. I got crushed on that play. I played another game at $1500 per spin for a jackpot party. I received jackpots on some games where I lost money.
link to original post

Quote: Sillyskilly

Lucky Koi -- IGT

Thanks. I know there are many more of these games out there. I just ran across Tippy's Golden Pot™ with three buy levels.

Quote:

Buy Feature

This feature is available in base game only.

Activating this feature will instantly trigger the Bonus feature.

This feature is not available above a certain bet threshold.

The feature is played at the current bet.

Some settings and features may not be available in this game.

The Buy feature cost for 3, 4, 5 scattered Bonus symbols is 40x, 80x, 250x bet respectively.

Quote: newowner

I have two questions:
1. how to calculate the average bonus value ?

2. is it possible do it in this way=> 1/ probability of triggering bonus game?
e.g. if the probability of triggering the bonus game in the main game is 1/100, the value of the opportunity would be 1/0.01 = 100. Therefore, if you buy the bonus game directly without waiting to trigger it in the main game, you would need to pay 100x bet multiplier.
link to original post

There is no simple mathematical relationship between the probability of triggering in the main game and the value of the bonus. However, you can be sure that you will never receive a bonus worth 100 bets every 100 games. If this were true, the return to player would be 100% just from the bonus rounds.

The value of a bonus round is determined by the features the game designer put into the bonus round. This can be feature design done independently of any aspect of the base game.

Quote: Mental

Quote: newowner

I have two questions:
1. how to calculate the average bonus value ?

2. is it possible do it in this way=> 1/ probability of triggering bonus game?
e.g. if the probability of triggering the bonus game in the main game is 1/100, the value of the opportunity would be 1/0.01 = 100. Therefore, if you buy the bonus game directly without waiting to trigger it in the main game, you would need to pay 100x bet multiplier.
link to original post

There is no simple mathematical relationship between the probability of triggering in the main game and the value of the bonus. However, you can be sure that you will never receive a bonus worth 100 bets every 100 games. If this were true, the return to player would be 100% just from the bonus rounds.

The value of a bonus round is determined by the features the game designer put into the bonus round. This can be feature design done independently of any aspect of the base game.
link to original post

Most PAR sheets will tell you the contribution of the bonus round to the payback percentage. The easiest way to find out is to ask someone who has the PAR sheets. When I was working in Gaming I had online access to almost all of the games PAR sheets.

I searched but can't find PAR sheets with the Buy bonus feature. Do you guys have any suggestions on this?

thanks,

Quote: newowner

I searched but can't find PAR sheets with the Buy bonus feature. Do you guys have any suggestions on this? link to original post

I think DRich overestimates the ease of getting PAR sheets by people who don't work in the industry. Very few real PAR sheets are available on the Internet, and I don't know of anyone who would share with me.

Quote: DRich

When I was working in Gaming I had online access to almost all of the games PAR sheets.

Okay, I know you've been a slot developer/programmer, and by working in "Gaming" do you mean a state Gaming Commission? I also remember reading another post where it seemed you were a casino slot manager, or at least on staff somehow. Is that right, you've done the trifecta of development, casino ops, and regulation? I already know you bring a lot of knowledge and experience to this forum but if it's really as broad as that then...wow.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: newowner

I searched but can't find PAR sheets with the Buy bonus feature. Do you guys have any suggestions on this? link to original post

I think DRich overestimates the ease of getting PAR sheets by people who don't work in the industry. Very few real PAR sheets are available on the Internet, and I don't know of anyone who would share with me.

Quote: DRich

When I was working in Gaming I had online access to almost all of the games PAR sheets.

Okay, I know you've been a slot developer/programmer, and by working in "Gaming" do you mean a state Gaming Commission? I also remember reading another post where it seemed you were a casino slot manager, or at least on staff somehow. Is that right, you've done the trifecta of development, casino ops, and regulation? I already know you bring a lot of knowledge and experience to this forum but if it's really as broad as that then...wow.
link to original post

I have a ton of IGT par sheets the only problem is that they are not named as in their names are numbers to obfuscate or simply not place a name on it before it’s marketed to the public.

I also have double the amount of IGT par sheets that are mostly duplicate variations of each other which seemingly were made for different regions of the world. I simply forget the name of that manufacturer but it isn’t one that started in the US.

I’ll share them with you Soon

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: DRich

When I was working in Gaming I had online access to almost all of the games PAR sheets.

Okay, I know you've been a slot developer/programmer, and by working in "Gaming" do you mean a state Gaming Commission? I also remember reading another post where it seemed you were a casino slot manager, or at least on staff somehow. Is that right, you've done the trifecta of development, casino ops, and regulation?

Just about every game developer has their PAR sheets online so the casinos have access to them. In Nevada, every casino is required to keep a file for every slot machine on the floor and that is supposed to have a copy of the PAR sheet in it.

As stated, I have developed slot games and tables games. I have also had managerial duties over the slot departments for casinos. Lastly, I was the designated Compliance Officer for a group of casinos and reported directly to the Nevada Gaming Commission. I never worked for the state commission, but had regular meetings and reporting with them.

I do a lot of slot machine design as part of my consulting business. My personal style is to have the same RTP for the buy a bonus feature as the base game. However, I also like the cost to buy the bonus to be a nice round number.

Take for example a game with an RTP of 92% and an average earned bonus of 25. The cost should be 25/0.92 = 27.17 credits. What I would do is charge 25 credits, but have different rules for the bonus if it is purchased. In this example, the average bonus, if purchased, would be 25*0.92 = 23. There are always ways to play around with the rules to achieve any average win I want, usually adjusting the reel stripping if it is a free spin bonus.

Quote: Wizard

I do a lot of slot machine design as part of my consulting business. My personal style is to have the same RTP for the buy a bonus feature as the base game. However, I also like the cost to buy the bonus to be a nice round number.

Take for example a game with an RTP of 92% and an average earned bonus of 25. The cost should be 25/0.92 = 27.17 credits. What I would do is charge 25 credits, but have different rules for the bonus if it is purchased. In this example, the average bonus, if purchased, would be 25*0.92 = 23. There are always ways to play around with the rules to achieve any average win I want, usually adjusting the reel stripping if it is a free spin bonus.
link to original post

When designing a game with four percentages (90, 92, 94, 96) do you generally change the base game or just adjust the bonus? I preferred leaving the base game the same and generally just altering the bonus payback to get the desired result. I did it that way because I was lazy.

Quote: heatmap

I have a ton of IGT par sheets the only problem is that they are not named as in their names are numbers to obfuscate or simply not place a name on it before it’s marketed to the public.

I also have double the amount of IGT par sheets that are mostly duplicate variations of each other which seemingly were made for different regions of the world. I simply forget the name of that manufacturer but it isn’t one that started in the US.

I’ll share them with you Soon
link to original post

You shared your 284 IGT par sheets with me six years ago. They're interesting, but as you noted, very few of them state the name of the game (and for some which do, they're not for U.S. slots, only places like Australia/U.K.).

Quote: DRich

When designing a game with four percentages (90, 92, 94, 96) do you generally change the base game or just adjust the bonus? I preferred leaving the base game the same and generally just altering the bonus payback to get the desired result. I did it that way because I was lazy.
link to original post

I do the opposite. I keep the bonus the same and tweak the base game.

Sometimes I have just two returns, say 85% and 95% and let the client randomly have a balance to achieve any RTP in that range he wants. For example, if he wants 92%, he would, use the 95% reels 70% of the time and the 85% the other 30%.

Quote: Wizard

Sometimes I have just two returns, say 85% and 95% and let the client randomly have a balance to achieve any RTP in that range he wants.
For example, if he wants 92%, he would, use the 95% reels 70% of the time and the 85% the other 30%.
link to original post

So that's why on some slots I'm getting bonus after bonus but on the same slot at another time it's like 20% return over 150x bet loss?

Wait, you mean the casino has to MANUALLY set it to 85% after $x coin-in through the machine?
Then set it back to 95% after $y coin-in?
I don't see them setting it back to 95%. The slot mgr probably be too used to the profit of 85%.