Card Runner Syndicates
I wasn't much interested in the card counter episode. But, I listened to the episode "How Slot Player Syndicates are Fleecing Free Play Promotions". The investigator actually used Facebook to try to figure out who the friends and family of the team leader were.
The industry has no excuse for not understanding the leak. This begs the question of why the advantage plays still exist. Or maybe the opportunities are quickly disappearing.
Quote: Mentalwww.willyallison.com/podcast
The industry has no excuse for not understanding the leak. This begs the question of why the advantage plays still exist. Or maybe the opportunities are quickly disappearing.
Having been on both sides of this I can tell you that the casinos understand most of it. Like most people, they just do the bare minimum to try and stop it.
Quote: Mentalwww.willyallison.com/podcast
I wasn't much interested in the card counter episode. But, I listened to the episode "How Slot Player Syndicates are Fleecing Free Play Promotions". The investigator actually used Facebook to try to figure out who the friends and family of the team leader were.
The industry has no excuse for not understanding the leak. This begs the question of why the advantage plays still exist. Or maybe the opportunities are quickly disappearing.
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If they stop handing out freeplay that's bad for business. They need to handing it out while being strict with people who don't play to expectations.
Unfortunately people don't play the same every time so they usually just end up pissing off regular customers
Quote: darkozQuote: Mentalwww.willyallison.com/podcast
I wasn't much interested in the card counter episode. But, I listened to the episode "How Slot Player Syndicates are Fleecing Free Play Promotions". The investigator actually used Facebook to try to figure out who the friends and family of the team leader were.
The industry has no excuse for not understanding the leak. This begs the question of why the advantage plays still exist. Or maybe the opportunities are quickly disappearing.
link to original post
If they stop handing out freeplay that's bad for business. They need to handing it out while being strict with people who don't play to expectations.
Unfortunately people don't play the same every time so they usually just end up pissing off regular customers
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What I ended up doing at my company was just allocate $XXXXX per month and divide that up amongst the top X players. For example if I had a budget of $50k a month the top player would get around $8k in free play and the next 9 players would split $23k based on their play. the other 90 players will split the last $20k based on their play. The remaining players that met the criteria would get $5 or $10.
First off its filled with a LOT of misinformation and basically bad information. If these guys are serious and not BS'ing to throw casual people off the answer why the problem exists is right there.
Off the top of my head:
Players cards without proper ID: He said some places you can just walk in and get a players card sans ID. Not in my experience. He'll just age requirements alone make that ridiculous. I'm sure at a minimum state regulations will require casinos to prove their database is of people above age restrictions.
Syndicates using homeless people to gamble: He said they get them to play for $15 an hour while they video on the phone what they do so the boss can monitor and a monitor watched them anonymously from the distance to make sure they don't steal.
Total frigging fantasy. That is not how I work and can't imagine any multicarding team works that way.
He practically brags he took some teams down. I guarantee those teams are still working. First off as he admits this is legal (barring doing illegal stuff like stealing pins and cards etc)
So just how can he "take down" a legal team? Soon as he identifies who is in the team I am recruiting new people. The guy is an idiot.
He also says he was involved in a court case against one team where he convinced a DA to press charges. I claim BS. You can't just make up charged. There has to be a violation of a written statute to press as the charge.
He admits finally they let the guys go by reaching a plea deal to trespassing. Again sounds like a BS job. Sounds to me like the DA realized it's legal and that the guys only crime was trespassing.
He tried to describe how obtaining offers works. He has some rudimentary idea how but trust me I am 6 continents further along than what this guy described.
He mentioned using Facebook. Again I cry BS. First off most people accept thousands of friends many are just tangential. Furthermore taking a friend's name and age off Facebook and searching through a casinos database for a match sounds awfully like violation of privacy(not to mention sooooo easy to just identify the wrong person). Most companies have TOS about privacy of your information so...
He mentioned casinos generally lose $300,000 - $600,000 a year to freeplay abuse. I have more than one casino I get that amount monthly. Of course he mentioned using 40 cards. I hit places with 300 a month.
Don't get me wrong. There are some places that use methods that make them difficult to best. But they also shoot themselves in the foot with their regular players imo.
He also mentioned surveillance zooming in to read text messages. First off my crew doesn't do that but I can't believe surveillance zooms into every player to read their texts. Unless you already have an idea who you are looking for again sounds like BS, Not to mention another invasion of privacy possibly.
I find it funny that he tried to get a DA to press charges for legal AP while not thinking about privacy issues. There is some expectation every person has that your texts aren't being read by someone with a zoom lens.
I also found his saying casino employees need to be trained to spot these AP plays to be something casinos DONT want to do. Mostly because they are Afraid their own employees will be their biggest threat. They don't want people inside their organization who know how to AP.
Honestly when I began listening I thought "Oh boy here comes trouble" But these guys are way off the mark imo
Quote: darkozWell I watched the episode.
First off its filled with a LOT of misinformation and basically bad information. If these guys are serious and not BS'ing to throw casual people off the answer why the problem exists is right there.
Off the top of my head:
Players cards without proper ID: He said some places you can just walk in and get a players card sans ID. Not in my experience. He'll just age requirements alone make that ridiculous. I'm sure at a minimum state regulations will require casinos to prove their database is of people above age restrictions.
Syndicates using homeless people to gamble: He said they get them to play for $15 an hour while they video on the phone what they do so the boss can monitor and a monitor watched them anonymously from the distance to make sure they don't steal.
Total frigging fantasy. That is not how I work and can't imagine any multicarding team works that way.
He practically brags he took some teams down. I guarantee those teams are still working. First off as he admits this is legal (barring doing illegal stuff like stealing pins and cards etc)
So just how can he "take down" a legal team? Soon as he identifies who is in the team I am recruiting new people. The guy is an idiot.
He also says he was involved in a court case against one team where he convinced a DA to press charges. I claim BS. You can't just make up charged. There has to be a violation of a written statute to press as the charge.
He admits finally they let the guys go by reaching a plea deal to trespassing. Again sounds like a BS job. Sounds to me like the DA realized it's legal and that the guys only crime was trespassing.
He tried to describe how obtaining offers works. He has some rudimentary idea how but trust me I am 6 continents further along than what this guy described.
He mentioned using Facebook. Again I cry BS. First off most people accept thousands of friends many are just tangential. Furthermore taking a friend's name and age off Facebook and searching through a casinos database for a match sounds awfully like violation of privacy(not to mention sooooo easy to just identify the wrong person). Most companies have TOS about privacy of your information so...
He mentioned casinos generally lose $300,000 - $600,000 a year to freeplay abuse. I have more than one casino I get that amount monthly. Of course he mentioned using 40 cards. I hit places with 300 a month.
Don't get me wrong. There are some places that use methods that make them difficult to best. But they also shoot themselves in the foot with their regular players imo.
He also mentioned surveillance zooming in to read text messages. First off my crew doesn't do that but I can't believe surveillance zooms into every player to read their texts. Unless you already have an idea who you are looking for again sounds like BS, Not to mention another invasion of privacy possibly.
I find it funny that he tried to get a DA to press charges for legal AP while not thinking about privacy issues. There is some expectation every person has that your texts aren't being read by someone with a zoom lens.
I also found his saying casino employees need to be trained to spot these AP plays to be something casinos DONT want to do. Mostly because they are Afraid their own employees will be their biggest threat. They don't want people inside their organization who know how to AP.
Honestly when I began listening I thought "Oh boy here comes trouble" But these guys are way off the mark imo
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I don't disagree that these guys are way off the mark on some aspects of the issues that they cover. Grading on the curve, Willy and Darrin are much more experienced than most writers or podcasters about game protection. In particular, their guests are sometimes much better informed than they are. There was no guest in the episode I referenced in the OP. I agree that they were a little lost at some points in the show. In particular, Darrin wants to puff up his skills at busting any form of AP or cheating. I don't believe it is easy to stop card running. You don't seem to have a problem just getting new cards for your operation.
John Wooten from the Ritz Club knew a lot about visual roulette prediction. He has investigated modern technology and is thinking about future threats. But he has blind spots. He was postulating that the roulette clockers are now going online where they can use any technology they like to time the wheel. One of the hosts argued that most online roulette was RNG, but that ignores the very popular live dealer online roulette world. No online live dealer that I have watched spins the ball before betting is closed. None of the three had direct experience with online live roulette and they were just guessing at that point. They did not know that online uses this simple countermeasure. The online game goes quickly, so there is no reason to keep betting open while the ball is spinning.
Bill Zender may have some holes in his resume regarding some of the game protection issues, but he is pretty sharp about things that fall into his wheelhouse. He was a guest on several episodes that I watched: card counting and baccarat.
Quote: Mental
Bill Zender may have some holes in his resume regarding some of the game protection issues, but he is pretty sharp about things that fall into his wheelhouse. He was a guest on several episodes that I watched: card counting and baccarat.
Zender is very well respected in the casino community.
Quote: MentalQuote: darkozWell I watched the episode.
First off its filled with a LOT of misinformation and basically bad information. If these guys are serious and not BS'ing to throw casual people off the answer why the problem exists is right there.
Off the top of my head:
Players cards without proper ID: He said some places you can just walk in and get a players card sans ID. Not in my experience. He'll just age requirements alone make that ridiculous. I'm sure at a minimum state regulations will require casinos to prove their database is of people above age restrictions.
Syndicates using homeless people to gamble: He said they get them to play for $15 an hour while they video on the phone what they do so the boss can monitor and a monitor watched them anonymously from the distance to make sure they don't steal.
Total frigging fantasy. That is not how I work and can't imagine any multicarding team works that way.
He practically brags he took some teams down. I guarantee those teams are still working. First off as he admits this is legal (barring doing illegal stuff like stealing pins and cards etc)
So just how can he "take down" a legal team? Soon as he identifies who is in the team I am recruiting new people. The guy is an idiot.
He also says he was involved in a court case against one team where he convinced a DA to press charges. I claim BS. You can't just make up charged. There has to be a violation of a written statute to press as the charge.
He admits finally they let the guys go by reaching a plea deal to trespassing. Again sounds like a BS job. Sounds to me like the DA realized it's legal and that the guys only crime was trespassing.
He tried to describe how obtaining offers works. He has some rudimentary idea how but trust me I am 6 continents further along than what this guy described.
He mentioned using Facebook. Again I cry BS. First off most people accept thousands of friends many are just tangential. Furthermore taking a friend's name and age off Facebook and searching through a casinos database for a match sounds awfully like violation of privacy(not to mention sooooo easy to just identify the wrong person). Most companies have TOS about privacy of your information so...
He mentioned casinos generally lose $300,000 - $600,000 a year to freeplay abuse. I have more than one casino I get that amount monthly. Of course he mentioned using 40 cards. I hit places with 300 a month.
Don't get me wrong. There are some places that use methods that make them difficult to best. But they also shoot themselves in the foot with their regular players imo.
He also mentioned surveillance zooming in to read text messages. First off my crew doesn't do that but I can't believe surveillance zooms into every player to read their texts. Unless you already have an idea who you are looking for again sounds like BS, Not to mention another invasion of privacy possibly.
I find it funny that he tried to get a DA to press charges for legal AP while not thinking about privacy issues. There is some expectation every person has that your texts aren't being read by someone with a zoom lens.
I also found his saying casino employees need to be trained to spot these AP plays to be something casinos DONT want to do. Mostly because they are Afraid their own employees will be their biggest threat. They don't want people inside their organization who know how to AP.
Honestly when I began listening I thought "Oh boy here comes trouble" But these guys are way off the mark imo
link to original post
I don't disagree that these guys are way off the mark on some aspects of the issues that they cover. Grading on the curve, Willy and Darrin are much more experienced than most writers or podcasters about game protection. In particular, their guests are sometimes much better informed than they are. There was no guest in the episode I referenced in the OP. I agree that they were a little lost at some points in the show. In particular, Darrin wants to puff up his skills at busting any form of AP or cheating. I don't believe it is easy to stop card running. You don't seem to have a problem just getting new cards for your operation.
John Wooten from the Ritz Club knew a lot about visual roulette prediction. He has investigated modern technology and is thinking about future threats. But he has blind spots. He was postulating that the roulette clockers are now going online where they can use any technology they like to time the wheel. One of the hosts argued that most online roulette was RNG, but that ignores the very popular live dealer online roulette world. No online live dealer that I have watched spins the ball before betting is closed. None of the three had direct experience with online live roulette and they were just guessing at that point. They did not know that online uses this simple countermeasure. The online game goes quickly, so there is no reason to keep betting open while the ball is spinning.
Bill Zender may have some holes in his resume regarding some of the game protection issues, but he is pretty sharp about things that fall into his wheelhouse. He was a guest on several episodes that I watched: card counting and baccarat.
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Yeah I get what you're are saying that they are experts where they have first hand knowledge but I am only concerned with threats to my particular AP (I empathize with other threats like anti card counting etc, don't get me wrong).
They lose credibility when they try to discuss things they have no clue about. In my experience doctors, for example, just say, "not my area, go see a xxx". Ask a podiatrist about your stomach cramps, he usually doesn't even try to guess. Only time that might be different is if he is giving you medication that he is aware has those side effects. Otherwise they stay in their lane.
If these guys wind up handing out MISINFORMATION to casinos about card running that is only a good thing for me so I guess I have to see the silver lining. I am just one of those people who cringes at misinformation. Even if it is to my own detriment.
Quote: darkozWell I watched the episode.
First off its filled with a LOT of misinformation and basically bad information. If these guys are serious and not BS'ing to throw casual people off the answer why the problem exists is right there.
Off the top of my head:
Players cards without proper ID: He said some places you can just walk in and get a players card sans ID. Not in my experience. He'll just age requirements alone make that ridiculous. I'm sure at a minimum state regulations will require casinos to prove their database is of people above age restrictions.
Syndicates using homeless people to gamble: He said they get them to play for $15 an hour while they video on the phone what they do so the boss can monitor and a monitor watched them anonymously from the distance to make sure they don't steal.
Total frigging fantasy. That is not how I work and can't imagine any multicarding team works that way.
He practically brags he took some teams down. I guarantee those teams are still working. First off as he admits this is legal (barring doing illegal stuff like stealing pins and cards etc)
So just how can he "take down" a legal team? Soon as he identifies who is in the team I am recruiting new people. The guy is an idiot.
He also says he was involved in a court case against one team where he convinced a DA to press charges. I claim BS. You can't just make up charged. There has to be a violation of a written statute to press as the charge.
He admits finally they let the guys go by reaching a plea deal to trespassing. Again sounds like a BS job. Sounds to me like the DA realized it's legal and that the guys only crime was trespassing.
He tried to describe how obtaining offers works. He has some rudimentary idea how but trust me I am 6 continents further along than what this guy described.
He mentioned using Facebook. Again I cry BS. First off most people accept thousands of friends many are just tangential. Furthermore taking a friend's name and age off Facebook and searching through a casinos database for a match sounds awfully like violation of privacy(not to mention sooooo easy to just identify the wrong person). Most companies have TOS about privacy of your information so...
He mentioned casinos generally lose $300,000 - $600,000 a year to freeplay abuse. I have more than one casino I get that amount monthly. Of course he mentioned using 40 cards. I hit places with 300 a month.
Don't get me wrong. There are some places that use methods that make them difficult to best. But they also shoot themselves in the foot with their regular players imo.
He also mentioned surveillance zooming in to read text messages. First off my crew doesn't do that but I can't believe surveillance zooms into every player to read their texts. Unless you already have an idea who you are looking for again sounds like BS, Not to mention another invasion of privacy possibly.
I find it funny that he tried to get a DA to press charges for legal AP while not thinking about privacy issues. There is some expectation every person has that your texts aren't being read by someone with a zoom lens.
I also found his saying casino employees need to be trained to spot these AP plays to be something casinos DONT want to do. Mostly because they are Afraid their own employees will be their biggest threat. They don't want people inside their organization who know how to AP.
Honestly when I began listening I thought "Oh boy here comes trouble" But these guys are way off the mark imo
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I don't know any Casinos that allow players to get Player's Club Cards with no ID. For all the Casino knows, the people trying to sign up for Player's Club Cards could be permanently banned. All of my local Casinos require ID in order to sign up for Player's Club Cards. 💡🤔
Quote: Roberto21DarkOz, or anyone in the know, how do you get 300 player cards?? Hell, how do you even get more than one from a property/franchise? lol
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Using friends and family is very common. Also, paying people to sign up and give you their card.
Quote: Roberto21Ok, that makes sense. It’s not like they’re wearing disguises and presenting fake ID’s for themselves then. I do something similar now actually where I claim a family members free play daily, is this illlegal? It kind of feels shady but it’s too good to leave on the table.. Obviously they can’t get to the casino every day to do it themselves.
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It's not illegal as long as they have given you their card and permission for you to use it.
The casino will tell you it's illegal if they catch you. Be brave and tell them to call the cops, you will wait. And watch while they refuse to call the cops for what they claim is a crime.
Then laugh in their face as you leave.
Quote: Roberto21What if they say something like, “It’s not illegal, but it’s against our policy”? Are you stuffed then? I don’t want to kick up too much of a fuss over $25 in cash. I should clarify it’s a cash daily reward. Can collect it from a kiosk, which I do but I generally play x number of spins afterwards hoping to win a larger amount. I use my own player’s card whilst playing, but technically the $25 reward is not meant for me so if I win a jackpot I wonder if they can deny the payout? Or if they can possibly ban me or involve the police for redeeming the reward in the first place?
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Police won't touch something that's not illegal generally. Not sure where you live so...
Yes they can ban you. It's part of the game. They can also close your account as well as your family member whose card you use.
As you read in above posts, I do lots of cards. The financial reward is greater than the risk. But one minute I am raking in dough, next I lost a sizable investment when a particular casino discovers the operation and shuts it down.
That's the dance we play. Perhaps it isn't for you.
What you and your syndicate do sounds fascinating. I have never heard much in the advantage play world about this strategy so thank you for sharing some insight into what you do. I hope your operation continues without a hitch! Good luck!
Quote: Roberto21Thanks for clarifying that. I live in Australia and my local casino has a monopoly in my state so it’s not worth the risk. Not when the family member in question can redeem the cash with no strings attached until at least the end of the financial year.
What you and your syndicate do sounds fascinating. I have never heard much in the advantage play world about this strategy so thank you for sharing some insight into what you do. I hope your operation continues without a hitch! Good luck!
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I see.
Well just be wary I speak from the United States and make an assumption so is everyone else. Australia's laws may be totally different than the US as far as this goes
Quote: Roberto21Thanks for clarifying that. I live in Australia and my local casino has a monopoly in my state so it’s not worth the risk. Not when the family member in question can redeem the cash with no strings attached until at least the end of the financial year.
What you and your syndicate do sounds fascinating. I have never heard much in the advantage play world about this strategy so thank you for sharing some insight into what you do. I hope your operation continues without a hitch! Good luck!
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Do many of the clubs run promotions? I remember gambling clubs all over Sydney and I think I remember them having player tracking systems.
Quote: DRichQuote: Roberto21Thanks for clarifying that. I live in Australia and my local casino has a monopoly in my state so it’s not worth the risk. Not when the family member in question can redeem the cash with no strings attached until at least the end of the financial year.
What you and your syndicate do sounds fascinating. I have never heard much in the advantage play world about this strategy so thank you for sharing some insight into what you do. I hope your operation continues without a hitch! Good luck!
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Do many of the clubs run promotions? I remember gambling clubs all over Sydney and I think I remember them having player tracking systems.
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I’m sure some of the larger clubs have their own member programs and run promotions, but a lot of the smaller ones don’t. They just do things like meat raffles, and complimentary snacks and beverages etc. to entice people to play. The casinos definitely have player tracking systems though. What I was told is a system alert is triggered when you have been gambling for more than 20hrs in a week, as they are mandated to have a responsible gambling chat with you then. In my experience they are pretty slack at doing this, although I’m sure if you are warned more than once you’ll be excluded so it’s not something you want to test too often.
However, I will say the promotions are poor compared to the US. I’ve never seen a car given away, or a cruise for that matter. I mean my local did a car giveaway a few years ago but no one won it. It was just a publicity stunt to bring people in. They drew one lucky member to pick a number between 1-100 and if it correctly matched the preselected number they won, they did this over 3 consecutive nights and I’d never seen the place more crowded in my life lol
What’s more typical at casinos here is food and beverage vouchers, points rewards, accommodation vouchers, mainly ‘in-house’ stuff.
Quote: DRichUsing friends and family is very common.
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I had a family member sign up and give me his card.
the hard part was to run lots of coin-in in a day on machines that have a low probability of a hand pay.
sitting there for hrs at .75 bet on a (hopefully) 90%+ non-vp machine is too much like work, even if i'm enjoying the game.
yeah, i could tell the slot attendant that i have no idea who the person is and he must have left the card in the machine.
but it looks suspicious when he has the same last name as me and lives in the same city
Quote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichUsing friends and family is very common.
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I had a family member sign up and give me his card.
the hard part was to run lots of coin-in in a day on machines that have a low probability of a hand pay.
sitting there for hrs at .75 bet on a (hopefully) 90%+ non-vp machine is too much like work, even if i'm enjoying the game.
yeah, i could tell the slot attendant that i have no idea who the person is and he must have left the card in the machine.
but it looks suspicious when he has the same last name as me and lives in the same city
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Then just say you didn't realize it was your relatives card. You must have accidentally got possession when you went gambling with him.
Quote: DavidCasinoMastI can understand regarding family and CLOSE friends, i will never ever get though, how you can involve a totally strange person in similar activity
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Totally strange person is I suppose relative (no pun intended).
I do not go up to strangers at all.
I ask people who already have cards to bring someone they know.
My friend brings his brother who brings his wife who brings her sister who brings her husband who brings her parents who brings their sisand brother.
Doesn't take long to amass a lot of cards from "relative strangers " pun intended.
If you no play them while taking free play, your Freeplay gets cut in half next week.
If you low play them then your offers get cut in half next month
maybe for multiple casinos?
(i put all the casino cards from a each state on a ring. ie: Vegas, atlantic city)
Spoke to a lady who does $1M coin-in per MONTH. (top tier is $1M coin-in per yr)
she said the casino recently cut her free play to $250 twice a week.
she said $500 is now the max weekly freeplay.
she's not happy.
Quote: 100xOddsAt this casino, i see a few people with like a dozen cards on a keychain.
maybe for multiple casinos?
(i put all the casino cards from a each state on a ring. ie: Vegas, atlantic city)
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(snip)
I see this fairly regularly - A rainbow of cards from different properties, all on the same leash.
For any number of reasons, this organizational scheme does not work for me, and I have to figure out other ways.
Quote: DieterI see this fairly regularly - A rainbow of cards from different properties, all on the same leash.
For any number of reasons, this organizational scheme does not work for me, and I have to figure out other ways.
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Why doesnt it work for you?
Seems fairly convenient if organized correctly on the ring
