Casinos setting AP traps
May 29th, 2024 at 2:51:28 AM
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Wiz's AP slot articles assume 90% return.
Well, I've noticed that more and more casinos are lowering AP slots to 85% once they learn it's AP'able.
So whatever # for Rich Piggies, Buffalo Link, etc no longer applies.
It's basically a trap for APs if they play at the old #s.
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
Well, I've noticed that more and more casinos are lowering AP slots to 85% once they learn it's AP'able.
So whatever # for Rich Piggies, Buffalo Link, etc no longer applies.
It's basically a trap for APs if they play at the old #s.
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
Last edited by: 100xOdds on May 29, 2024
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
May 29th, 2024 at 4:36:11 AM
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Quote: 100xOdds
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
link to original post
I would say that on average it takes less than 30 minutes to change the percentage of a machine. A tech could probably change 4 machines per hour if he was doing them in parallel. Most times you would not even notice if they were changing them.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 29th, 2024 at 4:52:40 AM
permalink
Quote: 100xOddsWiz's AP slot articles assume 90% return.
Well, I've noticed that more and more casinos are lowering AP slots to 85% once they learn it's AP'able.
So whatever # for Rich Piggies, Buffalo Link, etc no longer applies.
It's basically a trap for APs if they play at the old #s.
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
link to original post
Gasp! 😱😳 I noticed something similar with a VERY lucrative game where the money orbs would come VERY often like every five spins,and give HUGE payouts, for instance, the game would give like $159 on a .88 bet often, but nowadays, it's a HUGE money sink and you can go like 52 spins without getting the money orbs, which was NOT how this game was before. I forget the name of the game. The three tiger scatter symbol is the Bonus game.
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D
"For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
May 29th, 2024 at 12:48:07 PM
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/TfYywjB8rfZ5Pg6g6
Here is the Slot I was talking about. Rashiba Link. 💡
Here is the Slot I was talking about. Rashiba Link. 💡
Last edited by: Nathan on May 29, 2024
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D
"For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
May 29th, 2024 at 1:50:44 PM
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There is a slot with multi progressives that I used to play all the time. It’s a little swingy but eventually each one will hit. I did decent on it overall. If anything it was at least good for some coin in. A few years ago I hit the top progressive on 3 different machines in one day. But I was usually going for the first or second progressive. I haven’t hit a top one since.
I don’t play it much anymore mostly cause it’s not around much. But in the last 2 years about the dozen or so times I’ve played have been mostly bad. The progressives are taking longer to hit and the base game is just horrible. I have no evidence to support this theory but I’m thinking there was a software update.
Perhaps the progressives were hitting too frequently and they adjusted that. I don’t think casino’s or the manufacturer care too much about slot ap’s. As long as someone isn’t being a nuisance they probably will let them play even if they know a machine can be +ev. They just care about the overall return of the machine.
I don’t play it much anymore mostly cause it’s not around much. But in the last 2 years about the dozen or so times I’ve played have been mostly bad. The progressives are taking longer to hit and the base game is just horrible. I have no evidence to support this theory but I’m thinking there was a software update.
Perhaps the progressives were hitting too frequently and they adjusted that. I don’t think casino’s or the manufacturer care too much about slot ap’s. As long as someone isn’t being a nuisance they probably will let them play even if they know a machine can be +ev. They just care about the overall return of the machine.
May 29th, 2024 at 3:05:07 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: 100xOdds
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
link to original post
I would say that on average it takes less than 30 minutes to change the percentage of a machine. A tech could probably change 4 machines per hour if he was doing them in parallel. Most times you would not even notice if they were changing them.
link to original post
On must -hits, it only takes seconds for a slot tech to change the rtp.
i guess it depends on your state's gaming commission.
Some states require the machine be off for x days if changes are made
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
May 29th, 2024 at 7:24:35 PM
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Quote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichQuote: 100xOdds
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
link to original post
I would say that on average it takes less than 30 minutes to change the percentage of a machine. A tech could probably change 4 machines per hour if he was doing them in parallel. Most times you would not even notice if they were changing them.
link to original post
On must -hits, it only takes seconds for a slot tech to change the rtp.
i guess it depends on your state's gaming commission.
Some states require the machine be off for x days if changes are made
link to original post
A local near me had the loosest scarab I’ve ever played. Consistently would pop wilds and bonuses for huge wins. A few months later they moved the machine and it went from the best to the worst. I thought maybe I was just unlucky but it played like trash ever since. Was probably a 98 percent RTP at first and now 87. Took a few grand of losses to realize. Sneaky bastards.
May 30th, 2024 at 4:54:27 AM
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/54ueDrjvnBtwNDmR9
Here is the game I said USED to be good, but turned BAD, but what a PHENOMENAL once in a blue moon hit I saw before my very eyes! 😳😀 (I tried to take a full screen picture but other people were in the shit so I had to do it where no one was in the shot. 😉😏
Here is the game I said USED to be good, but turned BAD, but what a PHENOMENAL once in a blue moon hit I saw before my very eyes! 😳😀 (I tried to take a full screen picture but other people were in the shit so I had to do it where no one was in the shot. 😉😏
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D
"For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
May 30th, 2024 at 5:38:45 AM
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Quote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichQuote: 100xOdds
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
link to original post
I would say that on average it takes less than 30 minutes to change the percentage of a machine. A tech could probably change 4 machines per hour if he was doing them in parallel. Most times you would not even notice if they were changing them.
link to original post
On must -hits, it only takes seconds for a slot tech to change the rtp.
i guess it depends on your state's gaming commission.
Some states require the machine be off for x days if changes are made
link to original post
I don't recall any major manufacturers machines where the RTP could be changed in seconds. Pretty much any manufacturer that I can think of requires a special chip to be inserted into the machine and multiple reboots to change it. On the few machines where it can be adjusted remotely the machine still must go through a process where it has to verify the HASH which usually takes at least many minutes if not longer.
I have personally changed the percentages on probably close to 1000 machines over my 30 years.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 30th, 2024 at 8:00:20 AM
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Quote: DRichQuote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichQuote: 100xOdds
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
link to original post
I would say that on average it takes less than 30 minutes to change the percentage of a machine. A tech could probably change 4 machines per hour if he was doing them in parallel. Most times you would not even notice if they were changing them.
link to original post
On must -hits, it only takes seconds for a slot tech to change the rtp.
i guess it depends on your state's gaming commission.
Some states require the machine be off for x days if changes are made
link to original post
I don't recall any major manufacturers machines where the RTP could be changed in seconds. Pretty much any manufacturer that I can think of requires a special chip to be inserted into the machine and multiple reboots to change it. On the few machines where it can be adjusted remotely the machine still must go through a process where it has to verify the HASH which usually takes at least many minutes if not longer.
I have personally changed the percentages on probably close to 1000 machines over my 30 years.
link to original post
oh.. didnt include the reboots.
hm.. you have to change the chip?
It's not a setting in the setup screen with pressing the up or down key to the desired rtp?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
May 30th, 2024 at 8:10:30 AM
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Quote: 100xOdds
hm.. you have to change the chip?
It's not a setting in the setup screen with pressing the up or down key to the desired rtp?
link to original post
It is in the setup screen you can see when the slot techs are working on a machine. The thing is that it is read only until you insert the special chip that allows you to change it.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 30th, 2024 at 10:54:45 PM
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PROOF slot machines aren't totally random
Repeated 5,000 spin sessions add up to a Bell Curve, but it will be skewed so most players have a losing session with the 5% HA offset.
Repeated 5,000 spin sessions add up to a Bell Curve, but it will be skewed so most players have a losing session with the 5% HA offset.
May 31st, 2024 at 2:05:32 AM
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Quote: ChumpChangePROOF slot machines aren't totally random
Repeated 5,000 spin sessions add up to a Bell Curve, but it will be skewed so most players have a losing session with the 5% HA offset.
link to original post
So 95% machine.
How is that shocking news?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
May 31st, 2024 at 4:08:20 AM
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Quote: 100xOdds\
So 95% machine.
How is that shocking news?
link to original post
What is shocking is that someone found a 95% payback machine. Those are pretty rare these days.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 31st, 2024 at 6:11:12 AM
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Quote: SlotenthusiastQuote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichQuote: 100xOdds
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
link to original post
I would say that on average it takes less than 30 minutes to change the percentage of a machine. A tech could probably change 4 machines per hour if he was doing them in parallel. Most times you would not even notice if they were changing them.
link to original post
On must -hits, it only takes seconds for a slot tech to change the rtp.
i guess it depends on your state's gaming commission.
Some states require the machine be off for x days if changes are made
link to original post
A local near me had the loosest scarab I’ve ever played. Consistently would pop wilds and bonuses for huge wins. A few months later they moved the machine and it went from the best to the worst. I thought maybe I was just unlucky but it played like trash ever since. Was probably a 98 percent RTP at first and now 87. Took a few grand of losses to realize. Sneaky bastards.
link to original post
They took out all of the 6 sitdown Ocean Majics and 4 Scarabs but yet left all of the 10 golden Egypt's and recently installed scarab and golden egypt into all of the bartops at 10+ bar areas and I'm god damn certain 86% if not lower. I played several scarabs fresh after install and I couldnt keep up with the number of near miss bonuses! Seemed about every 6 games would for small payout. A fellow ap caught a glimpse of the rtp of a unknown slot which was 86%.
I totally agree and also experience low rtp on all the ap slots. The most noticeable, dragon rush, garbage box, Ocean Majics grand and piggies. I never ever experienced losses on these games at other places 1 to 2 hours from here. I would almost always, always, get the last 1, 2 or 3 eggs on dragon rush any other place.
They like to wait until the jackpots are nice and high when they do replacements, too .
And get a load of this! At the really small places (where you win) I seen a slant top igt four card keno game with a 96.4% payout. Looked to be an average rtp within the menu. Pshhhh yeah ...I think keno usually runs around 86..
May 31st, 2024 at 6:16:35 AM
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Quote: OKAYQuote: SlotenthusiastQuote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichQuote: 100xOdds
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
link to original post
I would say that on average it takes less than 30 minutes to change the percentage of a machine. A tech could probably change 4 machines per hour if he was doing them in parallel. Most times you would not even notice if they were changing them.
link to original post
On must -hits, it only takes seconds for a slot tech to change the rtp.
i guess it depends on your state's gaming commission.
Some states require the machine be off for x days if changes are made
link to original post
.
A local near me had the loosest scarab I’ve ever played. Consistently would pop wilds and bonuses for huge wins. A few months later they moved the machine and it went from the best to the worst. I thought maybe I was just unlucky but it played like trash ever since. Was probably a 98 percent RTP at first and now 87. Took a few grand of losses to realize. Sneaky bastards.
link to original post
They took out all of the 6 sitdown Ocean Majics and 4 Scarabs but yet left all of the 10 golden Egypt's and recently installed scarab and golden egypt into all of the bartops at 10+ bar areas and I'm god damn certain 86% if not lower. I played several scarabs fresh after install and I couldnt keep up with the number of near miss bonuses! Seemed about every 6 games would for small payout. A fellow ap caught a glimpse of the rtp of a unknown slot which was 86%.
I totally agree and also experience low rtp on all the ap slots. The most noticeable, dragon rush, garbage box, Ocean Majics grand and piggies. I never ever experienced losses on these games at other places 1 to 2 hours from here. I would almost always, always, get the last 1, 2 or 3 eggs on dragon rush any other place.
They like to wait until the jackpots are nice and high when they do replacements, too .
link to original post
Yep, 86 payback percentage is said to be shockingly low. I'm no expert, but I think raising the percentage to 92 payback would be ideal since many Gamblers tend to give back the money anyways. Players will quickly abandon an 86 payback percentage game, but will keep playing a 92 percentage payback machine in my theory
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
"Olive oil is processed but it only has one
ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D
I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;)
Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D
"For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
May 31st, 2024 at 6:38:14 AM
permalink
Quote: NathanQuote: OKAYQuote: SlotenthusiastQuote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichQuote: 100xOdds
If you see your favorite AP slot all of the sudden out of commission for a day or 2, the casino is doing the offline mandated by the gaming commission if they make any changes.
link to original post
I would say that on average it takes less than 30 minutes to change the percentage of a machine. A tech could probably change 4 machines per hour if he was doing them in parallel. Most times you would not even notice if they were changing them.
link to original post
On must -hits, it only takes seconds for a slot tech to change the rtp.
i guess it depends on your state's gaming commission.
Some states require the machine be off for x days if changes are made
link to original post
.
A local near me had the loosest scarab I’ve ever played. Consistently would pop wilds and bonuses for huge wins. A few months later they moved the machine and it went from the best to the worst. I thought maybe I was just unlucky but it played like trash ever since. Was probably a 98 percent RTP at first and now 87. Took a few grand of losses to realize. Sneaky bastards.
link to original post
They took out all of the 6 sitdown Ocean Majics and 4 Scarabs but yet left all of the 10 golden Egypt's and recently installed scarab and golden egypt into all of the bartops at 10+ bar areas and I'm god damn certain 86% if not lower. I played several scarabs fresh after install and I couldnt keep up with the number of near miss bonuses! Seemed about every 6 games would for small payout. A fellow ap caught a glimpse of the rtp of a unknown slot which was 86%.
I totally agree and also experience low rtp on all the ap slots. The most noticeable, dragon rush, garbage box, Ocean Majics grand and piggies. I never ever experienced losses on these games at other places 1 to 2 hours from here. I would almost always, always, get the last 1, 2 or 3 eggs on dragon rush any other place.
They like to wait until the jackpots are nice and high when they do replacements, too .
link to original post
Yep, 86 payback percentage is said to be shockingly low. I'm no expert, but I think raising the percentage to 92 payback would be ideal since many Gamblers tend to give back the money anyways. Players will quickly abandon an 86 payback percentage game, but will keep playing a 92 percentage payback machine in my theory
link to original post
I'm not even exaggerating when I should be, these thieving snakes can drop it another percent and still get the traffic. Big places with 5000+ slots, sports bar with big screens and multiple restaurants...get away with everything! It's like ap of skid row everyone eventually gets banned for 1 year and the cycle continues.
May 31st, 2024 at 7:04:55 AM
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Why would casinos do this? It makes no sense. I do not doubt that they are setting pennies and double pennies (and triple pennies if they offer them) to whatever lowest rtp option is (typically 85/86%), but I do not see why they would care about AP states. The hold is still going to be great for the casino even if some vulture swoops in and keeps ploppies from hitting the super stampede.
Casinos use lowest RTP because they can. Hit rates are really high now so dropping RTP to basement is not noticeable in the short term. Multidenom games have limited options (as few as three settings) between 85-95% for six denoms they have on offer.
Computers are powerful and storage is cheap. They can put everything in the game files now. They are not changing EEPROMs anymore. Casinoman opens the machine, plugs in the usb key to access pay tables, and changes it from there. But they aint doing it because casinos are all run by a handful of companies that know the business and how to set the machines when they go out on the floor.
Casinos use lowest RTP because they can. Hit rates are really high now so dropping RTP to basement is not noticeable in the short term. Multidenom games have limited options (as few as three settings) between 85-95% for six denoms they have on offer.
Quote: 100xOdds
hm.. you have to change the chip?
It's not a setting in the setup screen with pressing the up or down key to the desired rtp?
link to original post
Computers are powerful and storage is cheap. They can put everything in the game files now. They are not changing EEPROMs anymore. Casinoman opens the machine, plugs in the usb key to access pay tables, and changes it from there. But they aint doing it because casinos are all run by a handful of companies that know the business and how to set the machines when they go out on the floor.
May 31st, 2024 at 7:25:39 AM
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Quote: itsmejeffWhy would casinos do this? It makes no sense. I do not doubt that they are setting pennies and double pennies (and triple pennies if they offer them) to whatever lowest rtp option is (typically 85/86%), but I do not see why they would care about AP states. The hold is still going to be great for the casino even if some vulture swoops in and keeps ploppies from hitting the super stampede.
Casinos use lowest RTP because they can. Hit rates are really high now so dropping RTP to basement is not noticeable in the short term. Multidenom games have limited options (as few as three settings) between 85-95% for six denoms they have on offer.Quote: 100xOdds
hm.. you have to change the chip?
It's not a setting in the setup screen with pressing the up or down key to the desired rtp?
link to original post
Computers are powerful and storage is cheap. They can put everything in the game files now. They are not changing EEPROMs anymore. Casinoman opens the machine, plugs in the usb key to access pay tables, and changes it from there. But they aint doing it because casinos are all run by a handful of companies that know the business and how to set the machines when they go out on the floor.
link to original post
I always thought the casinos that updated gaming hardware which included installment of Ethernet cables gave them the ability to remotely do software updates and rtp adjustments. I recall wiz spoke of this on his q&a ytube show. And anything goes with tribal!
May 31st, 2024 at 10:01:16 AM
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Quote: OKAYI always thought the casinos that updated gaming hardware which included installment of Ethernet cables gave them the ability to remotely do software updates and rtp adjustments. I recall wiz spoke of this on his q&a ytube show. And anything goes with tribal!
link to original post
Slot machines have two way communication (unless they are on a cruise ship where they do not have space for servers or on a riverboat where they cannot run wires because there is no floor). They send data to server through SAS and can accept updates from the server. The updates can be sent remotely, but they still require physical access to change anything. Otherwise it would be Ocean's 11 all day. Or Ocean's 12. The one where they robbed a casino. Or did the rob a casino in both of them?
As for actually making changes to payback, even small casinos are $2MM coin in per day. That is in solidly profitable area of 90% CI. If they can cut RTP for short term, why not do it for long term? Why go from 90% RTP monday through thursday to 85% on weekends? Just 85% it all the time.
May 31st, 2024 at 11:16:41 AM
permalink
Quote: itsmejeffQuote: OKAYI always thought the casinos that updated gaming hardware which included installment of Ethernet cables gave them the ability to remotely do software updates and rtp adjustments. I recall wiz spoke of this on his q&a ytube show. And anything goes with tribal!
link to original post
Slot machines have two way communication (unless they are on a cruise ship where they do not have space for servers or on a riverboat where they cannot run wires because there is no floor). They send data to server through SAS and can accept updates from the server. The updates can be sent remotely, but they still require physical access to change anything. Otherwise it would be Ocean's 11 all day. Or Ocean's 12. The one where they robbed a casino. Or did the rob a casino in both of them?
As for actually making changes to payback, even small casinos are $2MM coin in per day. That is in solidly profitable area of 90% CI. If they can cut RTP for short term, why not do it for long term? Why go from 90% RTP monday through thursday to 85% on weekends? Just 85% it all the time.
link to original post
So there's no flicking the switch at around 4 am causing everyone who decided to stay overnight after winning all night long before it's game over and everyone is spiraling back into degeneration with repeating regrets of not leaving? Psychologically, it's the perfect setup. Everyone knows the ones who who don't leave and lose everything they had will always come back, blaming themselves for not leaving, never blaming the casino all while the casino is happy you came, won and had a good time...as long as the new hotel is paid for. .
May 31st, 2024 at 1:41:53 PM
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Quote: itsmejeffWhy would casinos do this? It makes no sense. I do not doubt that they are setting pennies and double pennies (and triple pennies if they offer them) to whatever lowest rtp option is (typically 85/86%), but I do not see why they would care about AP states. The hold is still going to be great for the casino even if some vulture swoops in and keeps ploppies from hitting the super stampede.
Very simple answer to this. AP's take their winnings outside the casino and don't gamble them away. A typical casino customer will continue gambling their winnings giving the casino the opportunity to get it back.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 31st, 2024 at 1:47:23 PM
permalink
Quote: itsmejeffQuote: OKAYI always thought the casinos that updated gaming hardware which included installment of Ethernet cables gave them the ability to remotely do software updates and rtp adjustments. I recall wiz spoke of this on his q&a ytube show. And anything goes with tribal!
link to original post
Slot machines have two way communication (unless they are on a cruise ship where they do not have space for servers or on a riverboat where they cannot run wires because there is no floor). They send data to server through SAS and can accept updates from the server. The updates can be sent remotely, but they still require physical access to change anything. Otherwise it would be Ocean's 11 all day. Or Ocean's 12. The one where they robbed a casino. Or did the rob a casino in both of them?
As for actually making changes to payback, even small casinos are $2MM coin in per day. That is in solidly profitable area of 90% CI. If they can cut RTP for short term, why not do it for long term? Why go from 90% RTP monday through thursday to 85% on weekends? Just 85% it all the time.
link to original post
SAS (Slot Accounting System) does communicate between the slot machine and the player tracking system but it does not communicate to casino servers and updates can not be performed over it.
A very small percentage of slot machines, I am guessing less than 3%, are what are called Server Based Games. Those games the percentages can be changed remotely at just about anytime if the machine is inactive. Most jurisdictions require the machine to be idle for 15 minutes or more before it can be changed.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 31st, 2024 at 2:12:08 PM
permalink
Quote: DRichQuote: itsmejeffQuote: OKAYI always thought the casinos that updated gaming hardware which included installment of Ethernet cables gave them the ability to remotely do software updates and rtp adjustments. I recall wiz spoke of this on his q&a ytube show. And anything goes with tribal!
link to original post
Slot machines have two way communication (unless they are on a cruise ship where they do not have space for servers or on a riverboat where they cannot run wires because there is no floor). They send data to server through SAS and can accept updates from the server. The updates can be sent remotely, but they still require physical access to change anything. Otherwise it would be Ocean's 11 all day. Or Ocean's 12. The one where they robbed a casino. Or did the rob a casino in both of them?
As for actually making changes to payback, even small casinos are $2MM coin in per day. That is in solidly profitable area of 90% CI. If they can cut RTP for short term, why not do it for long term? Why go from 90% RTP monday through thursday to 85% on weekends? Just 85% it all the time.
link to original post
SAS (Slot Accounting System) does communicate between the slot machine and the player tracking system but it does not communicate to casino servers and updates can not be performed over it.
A very small percentage of slot machines, I am guessing less than 3%, are what are called Server Based Games. Those games the percentages can be changed remotely at just about anytime if the machine is inactive. Most jurisdictions require the machine to be idle for 15 minutes or more before it can be changed.
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I apologize for any confusion caused above. To be more clear, SAS, traditionally, was a serial port (RS-232). It is only used for SAS protocol functions. This is not only data transfer option. In addition to SAS, slot machines have network ports (rj45) on the IO panel to connect with server. From the manual of the whatever cabinet this is:
So the machine can get data from the network, which includes software updates and whatever packages they need for the system. These can only be installed through the game menu interface when the necessary keys are inserted.
May 31st, 2024 at 3:16:33 PM
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Quote: itsmejeff
So the machine can get data from the network, which includes software updates and whatever packages they need for the system. These can only be installed through the game menu interface when the necessary keys are inserted.
Server based machines can get updates over the network but again that is such a small number of games on the floor. Most casinos don't have any server based games.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 31st, 2024 at 4:28:37 PM
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Quote: DRichServer based machines can get updates over the network but again that is such a small number of games on the floor. Most casinos don't have any server based games.
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Why not switch to server based games.
seems so much easier for the casino.
if it's against gaming commission rules, why not lobby to have it changed?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
May 31st, 2024 at 4:43:00 PM
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Quote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichServer based machines can get updates over the network but again that is such a small number of games on the floor. Most casinos don't have any server based games.
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Why not switch to server based games.
seems so much easier for the casino.
if it's against gaming commission rules, why not lobby to have it changed?
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It will eventually get there but the expense is great. I would guess about $35k per machine plus you need to buy the servers and infrastructure. It is hard to replace a Double Diamond machine that you paid $3k for and is paid off for a expensive new machine that might only do the same revenue.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 31st, 2024 at 6:52:35 PM
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Can one of the experts better explain "server based games"?
I can envision several scenarios...
- Server stores configuration and licenses (pushed to floor machine every reboot); game software and RNG run on floor machine
- Server runs RNG, floor machine translates that RNG result to game results (Class II bingo slots?)
- Server runs most of the game, floor machine "just" handles I/O (similar to Citrix / Thin Client)
I can envision several scenarios...
- Server stores configuration and licenses (pushed to floor machine every reboot); game software and RNG run on floor machine
- Server runs RNG, floor machine translates that RNG result to game results (Class II bingo slots?)
- Server runs most of the game, floor machine "just" handles I/O (similar to Citrix / Thin Client)
May the cards fall in your favor.
May 31st, 2024 at 11:51:19 PM
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Quote: itsmejeffQuote: OKAYI always thought the casinos that updated gaming hardware which included installment of Ethernet cables gave them the ability to remotely do software updates and rtp adjustments. I recall wiz spoke of this on his q&a ytube show. And anything goes with tribal!
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Slot machines have two way communication (unless they are on a cruise ship where they do not have space for servers or on a riverboat where they cannot run wires because there is no floor). They send data to server through SAS and can accept updates from the server. The updates can be sent remotely, but they still require physical access to change anything. Otherwise it would be Ocean's 11 all day. Or Ocean's 12. The one where they robbed a casino. Or did the rob a casino in both of them?
As for actually making changes to payback, even small casinos are $2MM coin in per day. That is in solidly profitable area of 90% CI. If they can cut RTP for short term, why not do it for long term? Why go from 90% RTP monday through thursday to 85% on weekends? Just 85% it all the time.
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Server based gaming systems DO NOT require physical access to the actual machine every time a payback change is made. Schedules can be set and the system will automatically make the changes during off hours when the machines are idle. In the event a machine is being used it will simply perform the update when the machine is no longer in play. In Nevada the machine must be idle for at least 5 mins for the change to occur.
This is all documented in the Bally command software manual. There was a link to it but they took it down. Prior to taking it down I read the whole thing and that’s how I know.
Small mom and pop places don’t use server based gaming but most of the big casinos do, especially those built less than 15 years ago.
June 1st, 2024 at 6:47:47 AM
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Server based gaming is used by the not gambling industry to describe everything. VLTs have a central server, but they are called "distributed gaming" because the server is not executing the game logic and is instead selling a predetermined ticket. Class II in most iterations requires a server to randomly distribute cards from its bank'o'cards, draw numbers to play a bingo game, and then evaluate primary and secondary wins, but, again, they do not call it server based gaming.
Server based gaming as a gaming industry term refers to game machines that function as thin clients. The player sits down in front of a slot machine, video poker machine, or EGM, but the play button leads to game logic being executed on a machine in a room somewhere else. Online gaming is a form of server based gaming. Any changes to pay tables happens on the server end and the casino does not have to change the play device to make those changes (but they are still subject to gaming regs). This is a rare setup in a real casino. Casinos were enthusiastic about it, but it never became as popular as the industry expected.
The type of server involved gaming that most people see is server supported gaming. This is where the game machine is generating random numbers and executing game logic, but the machine has a connection to the server to report back data, update game software, remotely disable machines, and whatever else they do. This means that packages or settings can be sent from the server to the machine. This does not allow remote configuration of any setting that requires key auth for the machine. Those can only be applied with keys and usb sticks inserted.
Uber is slow today, huh, Jon?
Is server based gaming actually cheaper? Modern slot machines cost a fortune already. The actual logic box is small potatoes compared to cabinets and displays. That AGS machine I used for the example above is a old now, but the GPU was an off the shelf GTX 1050. Lowest end of the low end.
Server based gaming as a gaming industry term refers to game machines that function as thin clients. The player sits down in front of a slot machine, video poker machine, or EGM, but the play button leads to game logic being executed on a machine in a room somewhere else. Online gaming is a form of server based gaming. Any changes to pay tables happens on the server end and the casino does not have to change the play device to make those changes (but they are still subject to gaming regs). This is a rare setup in a real casino. Casinos were enthusiastic about it, but it never became as popular as the industry expected.
The type of server involved gaming that most people see is server supported gaming. This is where the game machine is generating random numbers and executing game logic, but the machine has a connection to the server to report back data, update game software, remotely disable machines, and whatever else they do. This means that packages or settings can be sent from the server to the machine. This does not allow remote configuration of any setting that requires key auth for the machine. Those can only be applied with keys and usb sticks inserted.
Quote: SlotenthusiastServer based gaming systems DO NOT require physical access to the actual machine every time a payback change is made. Schedules can be set and the system will automatically make the changes during off hours when the machines are idle. In the event a machine is being used it will simply perform the update when the machine is no longer in play. In Nevada the machine must be idle for at least 5 mins for the change to occur.
This is all documented in the Bally command software manual. There was a link to it but they took it down. Prior to taking it down I read the whole thing and that’s how I know.
Small mom and pop places don’t use server based gaming but most of the big casinos do, especially those built less than 15 years ago.
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Uber is slow today, huh, Jon?
Quote: DRichIt will eventually get there but the expense is great. I would guess about $35k per machine plus you need to buy the servers and infrastructure. It is hard to replace a Double Diamond machine that you paid $3k for and is paid off for a expensive new machine that might only do the same revenue.
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Is server based gaming actually cheaper? Modern slot machines cost a fortune already. The actual logic box is small potatoes compared to cabinets and displays. That AGS machine I used for the example above is a old now, but the GPU was an off the shelf GTX 1050. Lowest end of the low end.
June 1st, 2024 at 7:15:02 AM
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Quote: itsmejeff
Is server based gaming actually cheaper? Modern slot machines cost a fortune already. The actual logic box is small potatoes compared to cabinets and displays. That AGS machine I used for the example above is a old now, but the GPU was an off the shelf GTX 1050. Lowest end of the low end.
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From my experience server based games were not cheaper because the hardware on the floor was pretty much the same. They were sold as a premium product because of the back end capabilities. You would also usually buy packages of multiple games for them so you were licensing multiple titles. I have been away from it for two years now so things are probably changing.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
June 1st, 2024 at 10:05:23 AM
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So if the casino closes at 3 am and the machines tend to go into take the money back mode at 2:30 am, get off the machines before 2:30 am.
June 1st, 2024 at 8:43:21 PM
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Quote: ChumpChangeSo if the casino closes at 3 am and the machines tend to go into take the money back mode at 2:30 am, get off the machines before 2:30 am.
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Damn I can't even leave when the moon is still out pshh
June 1st, 2024 at 9:27:04 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichServer based machines can get updates over the network but again that is such a small number of games on the floor. Most casinos don't have any server based games.
link to original post
Why not switch to server based games.
seems so much easier for the casino.
if it's against gaming commission rules, why not lobby to have it changed?
link to original post
It will eventually get there but the expense is great. I would guess about $35k per machine plus you need to buy the servers and infrastructure. It is hard to replace a Double Diamond machine that you paid $3k for and is paid off for a expensive new machine that might only do the same revenue.
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Would be a crazy infrastructure with 7000 machines. Losing wifi connection requiring handpays then I'd imagine not server based
June 1st, 2024 at 9:27:05 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichServer based machines can get updates over the network but again that is such a small number of games on the floor. Most casinos don't have any server based games.
link to original post
Why not switch to server based games.
seems so much easier for the casino.
if it's against gaming commission rules, why not lobby to have it changed?
link to original post
It will eventually get there but the expense is great. I would guess about $35k per machine plus you need to buy the servers and infrastructure. It is hard to replace a Double Diamond machine that you paid $3k for and is paid off for a expensive new machine that might only do the same revenue.
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Would be a crazy infrastructure with 7000 machines. Losing wifi connection requiring handpays then I'd imagine not server based
June 2nd, 2024 at 5:47:32 AM
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Quote: OKAYQuote: DRichQuote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichServer based machines can get updates over the network but again that is such a small number of games on the floor. Most casinos don't have any server based games.
link to original post
Why not switch to server based games.
seems so much easier for the casino.
if it's against gaming commission rules, why not lobby to have it changed?
link to original post
It will eventually get there but the expense is great. I would guess about $35k per machine plus you need to buy the servers and infrastructure. It is hard to replace a Double Diamond machine that you paid $3k for and is paid off for a expensive new machine that might only do the same revenue.
link to original post
Would be a crazy infrastructure with 7000 machines. Losing wifi connection requiring handpays then I'd imagine not server based
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I really doubt any of the major casinos have their server based games connected through WIFI.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
June 2nd, 2024 at 7:35:17 AM
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Quote: DRichQuote: OKAYQuote: DRichQuote: 100xOddsQuote: DRichServer based machines can get updates over the network but again that is such a small number of games on the floor. Most casinos don't have any server based games.
link to original post
Why not switch to server based games.
seems so much easier for the casino.
if it's against gaming commission rules, why not lobby to have it changed?
link to original post
It will eventually get there but the expense is great. I would guess about $35k per machine plus you need to buy the servers and infrastructure. It is hard to replace a Double Diamond machine that you paid $3k for and is paid off for a expensive new machine that might only do the same revenue.
link to original post
Would be a crazy infrastructure with 7000 machines. Losing wifi connection requiring handpays then I'd imagine not server based
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I really doubt any of the major casinos have their server based games connected through WIFI.
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I usually see network cabling in the pedestal bases.
May the cards fall in your favor.
June 2nd, 2024 at 7:41:36 AM
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Quote: Dieter
I usually see network cabling in the pedestal bases.
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Most jurisdictions require hard wired networking for the slots.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
June 24th, 2024 at 8:26:49 AM
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Quote: ChumpChangePROOF slot machines aren't totally random
Repeated 5,000 spin sessions add up to a Bell Curve, but it will be skewed so most players have a losing session with the 5% HA offset.
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Hey! That looks familiar
June 24th, 2024 at 10:33:29 AM
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By the time you shove the bell curve over 10% for the 85% machine, there's virtually no winning sessions left. You'd need a 3 SD or better run on all sessions just to get to the winning side. Just boycott these machines or die trying for the Mega JP. If you want to test it out, try 5,000 spin sessions and see if you end up anywhere near even. Eventually you will be losing money big time unless you have some betting scheme to beat this. But I'd save that strategy for the 95% machines and say the machines are too tight at 90% or 85%. Gosh, read the Trip Advisor comment sections of the casino you're going to and see if everybody says the slots are too tight and tighter than last time and it'd be better to give your money to the homeless than to the slot machines.
June 24th, 2024 at 10:41:49 AM
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That was over 5000 spins for each unit. At an 85% rtp, you may not have any winning sessions on 5,000 spins, but you would on 1000 spins, etc. A higher volatility game would also have a wider bell curve
June 24th, 2024 at 11:10:15 AM
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Quote: VegasEducationThat was over 5000 spins for each unit. At an 85% rtp, you may not have any winning sessions on 5,000 spins, but you would on 1000 spins, etc. A higher volatility game would also have a wider bell curve
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If you are sitting in front of a Hexbreaker or River Dragons in a bad state, you are probably playing a machine with a RTP of about 85%.
Of course, if that machine is in in CT, DE, MI, NJ, PA or WV, you could just pull out your phone and start playing a slot with 96%+ RTP. Maybe the cocktail waiter will still serve you drinks while you play a 98% RTP slot on your phone.
If people actually want to have a winning session, what are they doing in front of a sub-90% RTP slot machine? For most slot players, casino slot play is about something else besides winning.
Gambling is a math contest where the score is tracked in dollars. Try not to get a negative score.
June 24th, 2024 at 11:15:41 AM
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So the casino slots over the phone for money have an RTP of over 95% while the B&M slots have an RTP of 85%? Guess I'll be playing in a WalMart parking lot on the border. How do I call the attendant for a hand pay?
June 24th, 2024 at 11:54:08 AM
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I have a database of RTPs for online games of interest to me. The 582 games have an average RTP of 95.92% with a standard deviation of 1.00% and a median of 96.10%. A small number of sites are really tight and don't offer many games above 95%. Most online casinos offer games above 97% RTP. IGT games are tighter than most. Everi has a very tight range with most games set at 95%. SG, Wizard, BTG, PlayTech, and NETENT are looser.Quote: ChumpChangeSo the casino slots over the phone for money have an RTP of over 95% while the B&M slots have an RTP of 85%? Guess I'll be playing in a WalMart parking lot on the border. How do I call the attendant for a hand pay?
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Online slots often have lower minimum bet limits compared to B&M slots. I know of one 96.5% slot where you could set it to play at the minimum bet level and you would not be able to get $25 coin-in per hour at normal speed. Thus, it would theoretically cost you less than a dollar to play this game for an hour. What would the minimum theoretical cost per hour be for a ordinary penny slot in B&M casinos?
Very often, the casinos give you a lower or zero rating for playing the better slots. I suppose it is possible that the loosest slots are meant to be AP traps. The casinos are certainly trying to make it harder to be an online slot AP these days.
Gambling is a math contest where the score is tracked in dollars. Try not to get a negative score.
June 24th, 2024 at 12:00:17 PM
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Quote: ChumpChangeSo the casino slots over the phone for money have an RTP of over 95% while the B&M slots have an RTP of 85%? Guess I'll be playing in a WalMart parking lot on the border. How do I call the attendant for a hand pay?
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If you want drink service, you’ll have to find the closest bar or restaurant over the border, but I doubt you’ll convince them to comp your drinks!
It’s a dog eat dog world.
…Or maybe it’s the other way around!
June 24th, 2024 at 12:01:59 PM
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Quote: Mental
If people actually want to have a winning session, what are they doing in front of a sub-90% RTP slot machine? For most slot players, casino slot play is about something else besides winning.
If people want to have winning sessions the key is to quit as soon as you get ahead. A fair percentage of people will be ahead at some point in a session. If you bet $3 on your first spin and win $5 quit. You have a winning session. The problem is people get the preconceived notions that they need to win $x amount before quitting. If you are ahead $1 at any point quit and you can claim to have a winning session.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
June 24th, 2024 at 12:09:43 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: Mental
If people actually want to have a winning session, what are they doing in front of a sub-90% RTP slot machine? For most slot players, casino slot play is about something else besides winning.
If people want to have winning sessions the key is to quit as soon as you get ahead. A fair percentage of people will be ahead at some point in a session. If you bet $3 on your first spin and win $5 quit. You have a winning session. The problem is people get the preconceived notions that they need to win $x amount before quitting. If you are ahead $1 at any point quit and you can claim to have a winning session.
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I forget the the numbers but its something like 75% of sessions will be ahead at some point. Like you said you might go with a bankroll of $1000 and on the first spin, you are up $2. Theres a chance you should quit right then. The problem is that you never know if or when. This knowledge doesnt really help you at all because if your sessions go +$2, +$6, +$3, -$1000, thats still a loss even though most sessions were winning. If you were all knowing, and knew the optimal time to quit for every session, its be possible to be profitable like that, but sadly, theres no way of knowing
June 24th, 2024 at 12:14:40 PM
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Quote: VegasEducationQuote: DRichQuote: Mental
If people actually want to have a winning session, what are they doing in front of a sub-90% RTP slot machine? For most slot players, casino slot play is about something else besides winning.
If people want to have winning sessions the key is to quit as soon as you get ahead. A fair percentage of people will be ahead at some point in a session. If you bet $3 on your first spin and win $5 quit. You have a winning session. The problem is people get the preconceived notions that they need to win $x amount before quitting. If you are ahead $1 at any point quit and you can claim to have a winning session.
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I forget the the numbers but its something like 75% of sessions will be ahead at some point. Like you said you might go with a bankroll of $1000 and on the first spin, you are up $2. Theres a chance you should quit right then. The problem is that you never know if or when. This knowledge doesnt really help you at all because if your sessions go +$2, +$6, +$3, -$1000, thats still a loss even though most sessions were winning. If you were all knowing, and knew the optimal time to quit for every session, its be possible to be profitable like that, but sadly, theres no way of knowing
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To me, just being able to legitimately say that I win three out of every four sessions I play is good enough.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
June 24th, 2024 at 12:17:13 PM
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My very limited experience with slots from last century was when the casino brought in these brand new 5 reel slots with the 9-A decals and other decals that were a new idea around 1994 and have been a mainstay of slot machines ever since. For the first month I was beating these machines a bit and week after week the new machines got more crowded. Then after a month they changed the RTP and I couldn't get any winnings going on like I used to and week after week the crowds on the machines thinned out. After 3 months, the machines were so tight (maybe 85%) that nobody was playing them anymore despite the initial buzz they had. The casino killed the games. They can't stand winners. This was at an Indian casino where 95% payback is the limit, and 86% is the norm. So when the machines were first brought in they were probably set high at 95% then the bean counters in the back weren't satisfied after a month and got the screwdriver out to tighten them up and kept tightening them up month after month.
June 24th, 2024 at 6:56:59 PM
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Quote: MentalOf course, if that machine is in in CT, DE, MI, NJ, PA or WV, you could just pull out your phone and start playing a slot with 96%+ RTP. Maybe the cocktail waiter will still serve you drinks while you play a 98% RTP slot on your phone.
If people actually want to have a winning session, what are they doing in front of a sub-90% RTP slot machine?
For most slot players, casino slot play is about something else besides winning.
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I tried the free online version of the casino games.
It's ridiculous on how much i was winning, like it was set to 150% payout.
It was so stupid that it was no longer fun. :(
As for vast majority slot players: Slots are their escape from the real world.
Don't know about table players
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
