Buying a Must Hit from someone
He seems out of $. The ATM won't give him any more $.
Now he's frantically calling people.
How much to offer him to buy the machine?
What's the formula to calc that?
Edit:
Not River dragons
edit2:
He can call a slot attendant to watch his seat to go to the bathroom so you can't steal his seat
If he does have money on it, then ask him how much he wants for the seat and go from there. There’s no point in making an offer if your offer is either:
A. Less than he’ll take.
OR:
B. More than you’d have to pay.
Anything beyond that and there’s no, ‘Should,’ anything. Calculate what you think the EV of the play is and determine what percentage, at most, you’re willing to give up.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/17089-would-you-ever-pay-someone-to-take-over-their-slot-machine/
I seem to remember a rather lengthy explanation of how to calculate it, but I can't find the (article? thread?) right now.
Is it positive now?
Do you have a reasonable chance of sitting down for free after their crew drives the meter another $4000 and busts out?
Quote: 100xOddsLet's say it's a $5k Must Hit and the meter is at $4925.
He seems out of $. The ATM won't give him any more $.
Now he's frantically calling people.
How much to offer him to buy the machine?
What's the formula to calc that?
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If it’s River Dragons, keep walking
it's not.Quote: PenguinsOfPitQuote: 100xOddsLet's say it's a $5k Must Hit and the meter is at $4925.
He seems out of $. The ATM won't give him any more $.
Now he's frantically calling people.
How much to offer him to buy the machine?
What's the formula to calc that?
link to original post
If it’s River Dragons, keep walking
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I updated my op
First of all, I'm better prepared now and bring a ton of cash with me. Secondly, if I ever DO suffer the worst luck ever and run out of money, my idea is to cut my losses by announcing to all the vultures watching me that I'm auctioning off my seat to the highest bidder.
Let's say it's River dragons @ $4985 and he's down to his last $40 but he's making calls.Quote: PenguinsOfPitQuote: 100xOddsLet's say it's a $5k Must Hit and the meter is at $4925.
He seems out of $. The ATM won't give him any more $.
Now he's frantically calling people.
How much to offer him to buy the machine?
What's the formula to calc that?
link to original post
If it’s River Dragons, keep walking
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At x% rtp, it should cost you between $500 and $2300 to get to $4999.99 for a profit of between $2700 to 4500 if it goes all the way.
What would you offer? Why?
Quote: 100xOddsLet's say it's River dragons @ $4985 and he's down to his last $40 but he's making calls.Quote: PenguinsOfPitQuote: 100xOddsLet's say it's a $5k Must Hit and the meter is at $4925.
He seems out of $. The ATM won't give him any more $.
Now he's frantically calling people.
How much to offer him to buy the machine?
What's the formula to calc that?
link to original post
If it’s River Dragons, keep walking
link to original post
At x% rtp, it should cost you between $500 and $2300 to get to $4999.99 for a profit of between $2700 to 4500 if it goes all the way.
What would you offer? Why?
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Well I read that wrong with my previous reply. I’d offer 500 flat.
not at this casino. he can call a slot attendant to watch his seat.Quote: RogerKintI'd just wait til they go for a wee and steal the seat :D
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(updated my op)
Quote: 100xOddsnot at this casino. he can call a slot attendant to watch his seat.Quote: RogerKintI'd just wait til they go for a wee and steal the seat :D
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(updated my op)
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Pretty sure every casino you can do this. The high rollers can get the machines disabled
Now, if you think they may well get more money within a short period of time. You have gauged this from listening in to the phone call and/or observing their body language, then I would step in and try to work out some sort of deal with him. Just ask what they would take to give up the machine to you and make sure there’s enough meat on the bone for you still.
An even riskier play would be to assume this person is not a skilled advantage player, and let him retrieve more money and feed it into the machine, creating a more lucrative set up for you to swoop in eventually. For instance you may know you need $5000 still to secure the jackpot, whereas he may think only a thousand will do it. I know you should never pass up positive EV, but if you choose this route and wait for him to have a exhausted all his available funds then I’m sure there will be a little bit more good will left between you. Again this is a tricky situation and I’m interested to hear what other’s would do.
Quote: Roberto21Interesting dilemma. I guess we have to assume that he will eventually get the money from somewhere to keep playing so I would put heat on him as soon as his balance is at zero and he’s scrambling to get more money. I would tell the slot attendant that you want to play that machine and refer to any casino policy/regulation regarding maximum allowable time to hold a machine. In Australia, it is 15 minutes max for instance. That’s why it’s important to act quick because it could take him an hour to get money if you just leave him to it. Sure you won’t make many friends using this approach, but it was their mistake to be under-bankrolled in the first place.
Now, if you think they may well get more money within a short period of time. You have gauged this from listening in to the phone call and/or observing their body language, then I would step in and try to work out some sort of deal with him. Just ask what they would take to give up the machine to you and make sure there’s enough meat on the bone for you still.
An even riskier play would be to assume this person is not a skilled advantage player, and let him retrieve more money and feed it into the machine, creating a more lucrative set up for you to swoop in eventually. For instance you may know you need $5000 still to secure the jackpot, whereas he may think only a thousand will do it. I know you should never pass up positive EV, but if you choose this route and wait for him to have a exhausted all his available funds then I’m sure there will be a little bit more good will left between you. Again this is a tricky situation and I’m interested to hear what other’s would do.
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This scenario will probably never come up. When the player starts getting close to the felt, he’s going to make some calls and start betting at a snails pace. Only the dumbest people would go stone broke and then try to get money
Well I can think it possible under this condition:Quote: PenguinsOfPitThis scenario will probably never come up. When the player starts getting close to the felt, he’s going to make some calls and start betting at a snails pace. Only the dumbest people would go stone broke and then try to get money
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He's playing a $5k Must Hit and he's tapped out, including ATM. He has a $100 in the machine. He's making phone calls but It's Sun and the banks are closed.
Also some banks limit the amount of $ you can withdraw daily from your atm/debit card to protect from bank fraud. My limit was $1k even though I have 5 figures at the bank.
And the $2k or so that he can cobble up might not even be enough to hit the $5k and the player probably fears that scenario in the back of his mind.
No AP should include putting another AP on the radar of casino security part of his repertoire
That seems also like a bad investment. AP enemies can easily backfire.
The guy invested a lot of money and clearly is waiting reinforcements or he wouldn't be guarding the seat.
I know if I saw a guy with zero dollars in the machine and another AP was summoning security I would be inclined to front him a hundred so he could slow play fifty cent spins until his guy arrived.
My rule and maybe because my AP is dependent on the good will of everyone involved is slam the casinos not the AP's.
Working with AP's will lead to more opportunities. Perhaps he will remember you when he needs help with a future play. That's not happening if you called security to oust him from a guarded seat.
Quote: darkozI'm frankly shocked some AP's would consider knocking someone off the seat by reporting them to casino staff. That's worse than annoying vulture behavior imo.
No AP should include putting another AP on the radar of casino security part of his repertoire
I don't think reporting them for not giving up their seat if they are not playing is wrong. I would be nice enough to tell them before I did it so they could choose to stay and fight or they can disappear before security shows up.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkozI'm frankly shocked some AP's would consider knocking someone off the seat by reporting them to casino staff. That's worse than annoying vulture behavior imo.
No AP should include putting another AP on the radar of casino security part of his repertoire
I don't think reporting them for not giving up their seat if they are not playing is wrong. I would be nice enough to tell them before I did it so they could choose to stay and fight or they can disappear before security shows up.
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Ummm, aren't you the one in another thread who mentioned grabbing a seat even if it's turned over to indicate the player is returning? Or something to that affect (I gotta watch it before I get hit with another coaches challenge)
Quote: darkozQuote: DRichQuote: darkozI'm frankly shocked some AP's would consider knocking someone off the seat by reporting them to casino staff. That's worse than annoying vulture behavior imo.
No AP should include putting another AP on the radar of casino security part of his repertoire
I don't think reporting them for not giving up their seat if they are not playing is wrong. I would be nice enough to tell them before I did it so they could choose to stay and fight or they can disappear before security shows up.
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Ummm, aren't you the one in another thread who mentioned grabbing a seat even if it's turned over to indicate the player is returning? Or something to that affect (I gotta watch it before I get hit with another coaches challenge)
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Yes, that was me.
I cannot conceive of taking a machine from someone that I know wants to keep the machine when I know they are just going for a bathroom break.
I also cannot conceive of ‘reporting’ someone who is waiting for a friend to bring them money. Not how I live my life.
I absolutely can see offering a deal to someone who is at a machine with +EV but doesn’t have the $$ to play it out. But never with any kind of threat.
In 2019 a competing team bought a RD at $4975 for $1500. Lady was clearly out of money with no way to get more.
In 2020 I offered a lady money for a Ainsworth $10K and she counter offered me at $12K. After that encounter I decided it was never worth it to even engage. There will be another play.
Quote: SOOPOOSometimes you read something that is beyond your sensibilities.
I cannot conceive of taking a machine from someone that I know wants to keep the machine when I know they are just going for a bathroom break.
I also cannot conceive of ‘reporting’ someone who is waiting for a friend to bring them money. Not how I live my life.
I absolutely can see offering a deal to someone who is at a machine with +EV but doesn’t have the $$ to play it out. But never with any kind of threat.
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That's a context switch; the OP seemed to imply that this guy was trying to arrange money, not that he was waiting for money. If I went over to ask him what's up and he said, "I've got someone on the way," then I'd just be like, "Cool, good luck." If the money isn't lined up already, then why should I give this guy an unlimited number of hours to get the money lined up? What if a third person comes along and gets him off of the machine anyway?
Another thing, who's to say how much this guy is down? Who says he's down anything? Maybe he was acting as a scout and never lost anything in the first place. Maybe he only lost $100. Why shouldn't I allow for the possibility that someone spotted a machine and started calling around to get people on it if he never even put any money in? And, if that were the case, why should I behave deferentially to that?
I also want to add that this is an important lesson, in my opinion, for low-level hustlers (like me) to learn. I'd argue it's a necessary lesson. If you jump on the machine and pump it with money, then can't get anyone to come with more money on time, then you just lost your money for no reason. Basically, the dude (as a scout) could be shot-taking with a few hundred dollars (or something) with his backup plan only being to call to get players if he runs out of money or gets really close to the felt. Essentially, if he ran completely out of money, it was his greed that got him in that position; why should greed be rewarded or bailed out?
I ask you: Is that really the sort of behavior that should be rewarded?
I think it is not. If you didn't leave yourself enough money to at least slow spin it as you were making these calls, if someone gets you off the machine (via security), then they get you off the machine. Why should shot-taking behavior be rewarded? If someone is under bankrolled, then they should be making the calls right off the rip and spinning at the minimum total bet allowed like, once every ten minutes.
The ultimate point is learning this lesson is long-term good for the hustler. If you're just going to get bailed out (by one mechanism or another) every time you decide to shot take, then you'll never learn not to shot take.
You can also get into the whole thing with he's probably calling a card running team to get on this machine, or that's what it will turn into. Don't get me wrong; I would also be calling a card running team, but at the same time, F*** card running teams. There would be more opportunities on must-hits if the card running teams weren't so frequently taking them sub-100% because of the backend.
As far as I know, 100xOdds is a solo guy, so why should he be overly deferential to someone in a card running operation?
You know what else? If this guy goes ballistic and it somehow leads to the card running operation (if there is one) getting cooked in that casino, that would be awesome for 100xOdds. That's probably a substantial percentage of what competition he has. I'm not suggesting that you go out of your way to get people bounced, but if the dude who went El Busto isn't going to give up the seat, then maybe that's what should happen.
You'd also be shocked what people ask for; they're often ridiculous. I'm obviously not going around buying 10k Majors off of people, but I've bought (or attempted) a few three digit Majors in my time. One person (who was out of money) had the gall to ask for $700 because that was how much they had lost. I explained that the jackpot I was targeting was only a $500 MH and the response was, "Yeah, but you might win more than that." I obviously can't talk to this person.
Casual players often don't understand the value, so then they'll ask for more than the expectation of the play sometimes...just as a normal thing.
I guess one option that I didn't mention is that you could also offer a percentage of your profit, if there is a profit. They might not want to stick around for that so then it depends on whether or not they believe you'll be honest. Unless the number is just ridiculous, my opinion is more plays net lose than net win; you usually realize your EV by way of occasions that the thing hits ridiculously early relative to where you started. Of course, if you can get someone to agree to a percentage of your profits, then you don't owe them anything if you take a net loss, so that's nice.
Either way, I can understand why some people might think asking security to make the person vacate the machine is a bit harsh, but as I said above, it's a lesson that people need to learn sometimes. Instead of being bailed out every time you do something stupid, you eventually learn not to do stupid things.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkozI'm frankly shocked some AP's would consider knocking someone off the seat by reporting them to casino staff. That's worse than annoying vulture behavior imo.
No AP should include putting another AP on the radar of casino security part of his repertoire
I don't think reporting them for not giving up their seat if they are not playing is wrong. I would be nice enough to tell them before I did it so they could choose to stay and fight or they can disappear before security shows up.
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What would security do if you told them you'd been playing and a friend is on the way with more money. I'd think they'd give you some time, no?
Quote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: darkozI'm frankly shocked some AP's would consider knocking someone off the seat by reporting them to casino staff. That's worse than annoying vulture behavior imo.
No AP should include putting another AP on the radar of casino security part of his repertoire
I don't think reporting them for not giving up their seat if they are not playing is wrong. I would be nice enough to tell them before I did it so they could choose to stay and fight or they can disappear before security shows up.
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What would security do if you told them you'd been playing and a friend is on the way with more money. I'd think they'd give you some time, no?
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I'd say that would vary depending on the casino and perhaps even the individual security person. At some casinos, if you have a sufficiently high players club card level, you can actually get them just to put the machine on ice for a few hours.
Quote: Mission146Quote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: darkozI'm frankly shocked some AP's would consider knocking someone off the seat by reporting them to casino staff. That's worse than annoying vulture behavior imo.
No AP should include putting another AP on the radar of casino security part of his repertoire
I don't think reporting them for not giving up their seat if they are not playing is wrong. I would be nice enough to tell them before I did it so they could choose to stay and fight or they can disappear before security shows up.
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What would security do if you told them you'd been playing and a friend is on the way with more money. I'd think they'd give you some time, no?
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I'd say that would vary depending on the casino and perhaps even the individual security person. At some casinos, if you have a sufficiently high players club card level, you can actually get them just to put the machine on ice for a few hours.
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I wouldn't take a negative answer from a security guard. I'd insist on getting their supervisors and their supervisors supervisor. Unless they gave me an answer I liked.
Quote: billryan\
What would security do if you told them you'd been playing and a friend is on the way with more money. I'd think they'd give you some time, no?
I think if they were good, they would give them a very short time. I would think 5 minutes would be reasonable. How much time is appropriate? My friend is on his way, he is at the airport now in Chengdong and will be here.
Quote: DRichQuote: billryan\
What would security do if you told them you'd been playing and a friend is on the way with more money. I'd think they'd give you some time, no?
I think if they were good, they would give them a very short time. I would think 5 minutes would be reasonable. How much time is appropriate? My friend is on his way, he is at the airport now in Chengdong and will be here.
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I believe most of the classier establishments will "cap" a machine for up to 2 hours. If it takes longer than that to get a teammate or a cash delivery, you weren't ready to play.
Quote: DieterQuote: DRichQuote: billryan\
What would security do if you told them you'd been playing and a friend is on the way with more money. I'd think they'd give you some time, no?
I think if they were good, they would give them a very short time. I would think 5 minutes would be reasonable. How much time is appropriate? My friend is on his way, he is at the airport now in Chengdong and will be here.
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I believe most of the classier establishments will "cap" a machine for up to 2 hours. If it takes longer than that to get a teammate or a cash delivery, you weren't ready to play.
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Exactly.
That goes to my point about someone being totally tapped out and only then trying to line this stuff up. That’s what slow spinning is for. If someone is tapped completely out, then they should look at this as a lesson not to take shots.
I don’t think it’s impossible for a casino to ask you off of a machine for slow playing, though some Gaming codes might have applicable rules to that effect (I don’t actually know and it might be up to interpretation, in some cases; they can also flat 86 you for any reason real or imagined). That said, if someone is observing another person on a must-hit and wanted to make a big stink with the casino staff that he’s only spinning once every ten minutes…that dude would be a pretty big scumbag; I took the OP as suggesting this person had no $$$ whatsoever.
