Has Vulturing gone the way of the dodo
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20 members have voted
There have been casinos that put signs like that on the machines. There are just too many problems and issues with vultureable machines.Quote: DieterQuote: AxelWolfYou tell me, I've been asking myself the same thing since I started.Quote: Dieter
Why would an AP poison the well?
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I keep coming back to two ideas.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Perhaps people wrongly think they will be in the good graces of a club by helping make conditions unfavorable for scavengers. I think this is a footgun.
"Never smarten up a chump." I'm actually a bit torn on this, because a bobble-sign that says "This game has non-random features. Do not allow yourself to be chased away from pending value by a scammer!" may be justified.
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Quote: darkozI just listened to that video. I find the whole argument disingenuous.
So the casinos should be concerned that ploppies aren't getting proper value because they lose quicker when the AP games are negative. So they have a worse experience and don't want to come back.
That seems to be their argument.
Okay then why would a casino install triple zero roulette where ploppies who don't get it will lose their money faster and not come back because of their worse experience?
I can't stand hypocrisy!
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Or “Players can’t tell what the RTP is so we set all our machines at 85%”
Quote: AxelWolfI think there's a way to solve some of the new machine Vulturing problems, it won't stop Advantage Players, but it will cut down on vultures.
In its simplicity, figure out how to give the ploppies back their earned value before they leave the machine.
For example, once the game hits positive territory or close, and once someone cashes out or makes their last spin, have a notice pop up on the machine saying, "Hey valued player if you are planning on not continuing on this machine before you leave make sure to click here to get your free bonus spin or collect your earned/free winnings.
I can't remember the name now, but I believe there was a video poker game with a wheel (Wheel Poker?)that came out probably around the time that The Cosmo opened and did something similar to this.
Yes, I understand there are all kinds of problems with a simplistic method such as I described, but I believe a think-tank that involved Advantage Players could come up with something pretty damn good similar to this.
I bet Ahigh could come up with something with help from an Advantage Player.
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When persistent state was just starting to be a thing, the games did this. WMS had "Win It Again" (video of a very, very canadian fellow playing the game). The game would track your last five plays and if you got three cascades or something, you would win all the prizes on the board again. You could also choose to take a random shot at getting the prizes by click a button or cashing out.
This was also seen in the class II realm. Some company had an accumulating meter for free games or some bonus prize. You could take the accumulated prize value by cashing out.
The problem with this idea is that advantage states are built to get people to play and chase. If you see that the pigs are at 20 spins for $45/spin, you sit down and play it, get a blue out, and win 16x your bet before walking away angry. A fresh board does not induce people to play and most definitely does not get people to sink a bucket of coins into a bad state.
That's why I had said not to offer a buyout until the games were close to +EV so they still got inflated, however, I don't know if gaming would approve such a thing. And that still leaves the door open to Advantage Players looking to earn free play mail. I'm sure if they get creative enough they can make games look inflated and attractive even at reset.Quote: itsmejeffQuote: AxelWolfI think there's a way to solve some of the new machine Vulturing problems, it won't stop Advantage Players, but it will cut down on vultures.
In its simplicity, figure out how to give the ploppies back their earned value before they leave the machine.
For example, once the game hits positive territory or close, and once someone cashes out or makes their last spin, have a notice pop up on the machine saying, "Hey valued player if you are planning on not continuing on this machine before you leave make sure to click here to get your free bonus spin or collect your earned/free winnings.
I can't remember the name now, but I believe there was a video poker game with a wheel (Wheel Poker?)that came out probably around the time that The Cosmo opened and did something similar to this.
Yes, I understand there are all kinds of problems with a simplistic method such as I described, but I believe a think-tank that involved Advantage Players could come up with something pretty damn good similar to this.
I bet Ahigh could come up with something with help from an Advantage Player.
link to original post
When persistent state was just starting to be a thing, the games did this. WMS had "Win It Again" (video of a very, very canadian fellow playing the game). The game would track your last five plays and if you got three cascades or something, you would win all the prizes on the board again. You could also choose to take a random shot at getting the prizes by click a button or cashing out.
This was also seen in the class II realm. Some company had an accumulating meter for free games or some bonus prize. You could take the accumulated prize value by cashing out.
The problem with this idea is that advantage states are built to get people to play and chase. If you see that the pigs are at 20 spins for $45/spin, you sit down and play it, get a blue out, and win 16x your bet before walking away angry. A fresh board does not induce people to play and most definitely does not get people to sink a bucket of coins into a bad state.
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Quote: Dieter
"Never smarten up a chump." I'm actually a bit torn on this, because a bobble-sign that says "This game has non-random features. Do not allow yourself to be chased away from pending value by a scammer!" may be justified.
What if the chump is also an advantage player? I may resemble that. As one who played advantages over my last 20 years in Vegas and made a fair amount of money doing it, but also designed slot machines and looked for methods to slow down AP's I may be that person.
People can play on both sides of the tracks without necessarily being an enemy of either side,
EXCEPT... these vultures were clearly working in teams and seemingly were at war with one another when a machine was getting a LOT of action. I even saw the "Leader" storm a machine and tell an elderly Asian woman to buzz off when she tried to poach the machine after their mark lost his money.
I started messing with the leader when he was brazenly sitting behind me while I played Buffalo Ascension by taking out my Phone and pretending to take selfies, but clearly having his fat, greedy face in the frame and kept holding the phone up High for him to see. He finally noticed it, threw a hissy fit and buggered off!
Funny enough, the machine went into the Super Stampede mode not long after and I made out a little over $800! If only he didn't get scared off... Hahaha!
Quote: 7NeverWinsI recently ran to a Flock of Vultures at a Casino I hadn't visited in OVER a YEAR! It was one of the lesser frequented Casinos in AC, on the Marina side. Since I was in town the whole week for a convention and needed a Friday night, I had to stay here and had no complaints. Rooms were nicer since last visit, check in was super easy with Kiosk and the new eateries were quite good!
EXCEPT... these vultures were clearly working in teams and seemingly were at war with one another when a machine was getting a LOT of action. I even saw the "Leader" storm a machine and tell an elderly Asian woman to buzz off when she tried to poach the machine after their mark lost his money.
I started messing with the leader when he was brazenly sitting behind me while I played Buffalo Ascension by taking out my Phone and pretending to take selfies, but clearly having his fat, greedy face in the frame and kept holding the phone up High for him to see. He finally noticed it, threw a hissy fit and buggered off!
Funny enough, the machine went into the Super Stampede mode not long after and I made out a little over $800! If only he didn't get scared off... Hahaha!
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The irony of course would have been if casino surveillance trespassed you for taking photos of the other customers.
And I am half serious too.
Admittedly I've messed with some aggressive vultures a few times by leaving a screen full of Wilds/ multipliers visible while I just chilled out talking on the phone and or making it look like I was getting ready to leave.Quote: 7NeverWinsI recently ran to a Flock of Vultures at a Casino I hadn't visited in OVER a YEAR! It was one of the lesser frequented Casinos in AC, on the Marina side. Since I was in town the whole week for a convention and needed a Friday night, I had to stay here and had no complaints. Rooms were nicer since last visit, check in was super easy with Kiosk and the new eateries were quite good!
EXCEPT... these vultures were clearly working in teams and seemingly were at war with one another when a machine was getting a LOT of action. I even saw the "Leader" storm a machine and tell an elderly Asian woman to buzz off when she tried to poach the machine after their mark lost his money.
I started messing with the leader when he was brazenly sitting behind me while I played Buffalo Ascension by taking out my Phone and pretending to take selfies, but clearly having his fat, greedy face in the frame and kept holding the phone up High for him to see. He finally noticed it, threw a hissy fit and buggered off!
Funny enough, the machine went into the Super Stampede mode not long after and I made out a little over $800! If only he didn't get scared off... Hahaha!
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Perhaps that would be a good tactic for these competing crews, Have an unknown member slow play something really juicy so the other team waste their time camping behind it while you go scrape up all the other good stuff.
Quote: AxelWolfAdmittedly I've messed with some aggressive vultures a few times by leaving a screen full of Wilds/ multipliers visible while I just chilled out talking on the phone and or making it look like I was getting ready to leave. If you really want to drive them nutty you just switch to another game after they've seen all the juicy multipliers and wild sitting there.Quote: 7NeverWinsI recently ran to a Flock of Vultures at a Casino I hadn't visited in OVER a YEAR! It was one of the lesser frequented Casinos in AC, on the Marina side. Since I was in town the whole week for a convention and needed a Friday night, I had to stay here and had no complaints. Rooms were nicer since last visit, check in was super easy with Kiosk and the new eateries were quite good!
EXCEPT... these vultures were clearly working in teams and seemingly were at war with one another when a machine was getting a LOT of action. I even saw the "Leader" storm a machine and tell an elderly Asian woman to buzz off when she tried to poach the machine after their mark lost his money.
I started messing with the leader when he was brazenly sitting behind me while I played Buffalo Ascension by taking out my Phone and pretending to take selfies, but clearly having his fat, greedy face in the frame and kept holding the phone up High for him to see. He finally noticed it, threw a hissy fit and buggered off!
Funny enough, the machine went into the Super Stampede mode not long after and I made out a little over $800! If only he didn't get scared off... Hahaha!
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Perhaps that would be a good tactic for these competing crews, Have an unknown member slow play something really juicy so the other team waste their time camping behind it while you go scrape up all the other good stuff.
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According to the guy in the video all you have to do is walk into a casino find an MHB $10k at $9900 and make $10k in 20 minutes.
Somebody already playing it? Just give them $500 & tell them to scram.
Then take the money & run & the casino never sees it again because why would you ever go back to a place where you can make $10k in 20 minutes?
Only downside is the ploppy that would of hit the $10k and then dump it all back in that night plus another $2,000 of his own money chasing that big win high doesn’t have as good of time as he would of since instead he just leaves up a few hundred.
Quote: darkozQuote: BrickapotamusQuote: NathanQuote: MukkeI have definitely seen AP games come in strong and then die out very quickly thereafter. Whether it's 3 months or 6 months I'm not really counting. Many games are best the first month or 2 and after that they already take a dive, though. So I do agree with that sentiment, regardless of whether the 3 month number is 100% accurate or not.
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Yep, the Rashina links games were good at FIRST and I was constantly winning BIG money off of them, but after about a month, they payouts became and are STILL ATROCIOUS and I was quickly losing money on this game when I was at first winning BIG money off of them..☢️
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What are the Rashina Links games? Never seen or heard of them & a Google search shows nothing
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Those are AP games where vultures try to rush you off the game.
"Stop Rashina me!"
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Lmao
Quote: AxelWolf
Perhaps that would be a good tactic for these competing crews, Have an unknown member slow play something really juicy so the other team waste their time camping behind it while you go scrape up all the other good stuff.
I was once playing some Ultimate X in the high limit room at RIO and a nice guy came over and offered to teach me how to play it. I played along and he showed me it was best to switch games immediately after getting dealt a straight or better. I obliged and he sat next to me for over an hour as I would switch games every time after getting a dealt winner (I believe I was playing $1 denom). Once I exhausted all 12 games and left big multipliers on each game he suggested I quit as the machine was all paid out. I started to stand up and he almost wet himself with excitement. I then said I felt lucky and wanted to try one more time. I played one hand on each game and then left. He was pissed and cussing at me for wasting two hours of his time. I loved it.
Quote: BrickapotamusQuote: NathanQuote: MukkeI have definitely seen AP games come in strong and then die out very quickly thereafter. Whether it's 3 months or 6 months I'm not really counting. Many games are best the first month or 2 and after that they already take a dive, though. So I do agree with that sentiment, regardless of whether the 3 month number is 100% accurate or not.
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Yep, the Rashina links games were good at FIRST and I was constantly winning BIG money off of them, but after about a month, they payouts became and are STILL ATROCIOUS and I was quickly losing money on this game when I was at first winning BIG money off of them..☢️
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What are the Rashina Links games? Never seen or heard of them & a Google search shows nothing
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It's actually Rashiba games(I typed n instead of a b) it's a game where you get money orbs much like lightning link games. The non money orbs payouts are ATROCIOUS, but the money orbs payouts can be REALLY lucrative. When Rashiba games first came out, I was CONSTANTLY winning around $100 on .88 bets, but the money orbs have gotten REALLY paltry afterwards. They are also far and few between to make matters worse ☢️ The tiger is the scatter symbol and leads to the bonus. 💡 The Emperor or the Warrior is the wild. 💡
I don't know what I can or can't say. But in my opinion, you have been a very good ally standing up for Advantage Players when it comes to gambling establishments doing the right thing.Quote: DRich
People can play on both sides of the tracks without necessarily being an enemy of either side,
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I've always had a lot of respect for you.
Quote: AxelWolfI don't know what I can or can't say. But in my opinion, you have been a very good ally standing up for Advantage Players when it comes to gambling establishments doing the right thing.Quote: DRich
People can play on both sides of the tracks without necessarily being an enemy of either side,
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I've always had a lot of respect for you.
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I appreciate you saying that. I am not the most experienced AP, nor am I the most experienced casino manager, but I think there are very few people that have been on both sides as much as I have.
Quote: darkozQuote: 7NeverWinsI recently ran to a Flock of Vultures at a Casino I hadn't visited in OVER a YEAR! It was one of the lesser frequented Casinos in AC, on the Marina side. Since I was in town the whole week for a convention and needed a Friday night, I had to stay here and had no complaints. Rooms were nicer since last visit, check in was super easy with Kiosk and the new eateries were quite good!
EXCEPT... these vultures were clearly working in teams and seemingly were at war with one another when a machine was getting a LOT of action. I even saw the "Leader" storm a machine and tell an elderly Asian woman to buzz off when she tried to poach the machine after their mark lost his money.
I started messing with the leader when he was brazenly sitting behind me while I played Buffalo Ascension by taking out my Phone and pretending to take selfies, but clearly having his fat, greedy face in the frame and kept holding the phone up High for him to see. He finally noticed it, threw a hissy fit and buggered off!
Funny enough, the machine went into the Super Stampede mode not long after and I made out a little over $800! If only he didn't get scared off... Hahaha!
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The irony of course would have been if casino surveillance trespassed you for taking photos of the other customers.
And I am half serious too.
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Eh, I see barely 21 year old Tik Tok wannabes doing live streams, snap chats and selfies at the slots ALL NIGHT. I'll just say I'm a
"Content Creator" and these lurkers are accidentally in my shot. As long as my face appears in the video for even 1 second, they can't prove otherwise!
Besides, they're in MY space and deserve to be called out. The casino can't feign ignorance on what they're doing while simultaneously acting like they KNOW what I'm doing!
Quote: darkozI just listened to that video. I find the whole argument disingenuous.
So the casinos should be concerned that ploppies aren't getting proper value because they lose quicker when the AP games are negative. So they have a worse experience and don't want to come back.
That seems to be their argument.
Okay then why would a casino install triple zero roulette where ploppies who don't get it will lose their money faster and not come back because of their worse experience?
I can't stand hypocrisy!
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You're too binary in how you look at this.
When a casino moves from double-0 to tripple-0 they are increasing the hold AND THEIR TAKE from 5.3% to 7.7%. Which by the way is still a lot lower than slots. While not great for their customers, the casino makes more money so they are OK with that tradeoff.
When a casino changes their slot hold average from 8% to 10% (which I conceptually believe has happened in vegas over time), they are increasing the hold AND THEIR TAKE. While not great for their customers, the casino makes more money so they are OK with that tradeoff.
When a casino installs an AP machine, the average hold while non-aps are playing it goes from 10% to 25% (feel free to plot in your own number here. The point is that number is far less than the average 10% to make up for the +EV experienced later). However this does NOT increase the casino's take, because they are still only subject to the long-term hold which is still 10%. So this is bad for their bread-and-butter customer without any saving grace for the casino.
So yeah, that argument is absolutely valid.
Quote: 7NeverWinsQuote: darkozQuote: 7NeverWinsI recently ran to a Flock of Vultures at a Casino I hadn't visited in OVER a YEAR! It was one of the lesser frequented Casinos in AC, on the Marina side. Since I was in town the whole week for a convention and needed a Friday night, I had to stay here and had no complaints. Rooms were nicer since last visit, check in was super easy with Kiosk and the new eateries were quite good!
EXCEPT... these vultures were clearly working in teams and seemingly were at war with one another when a machine was getting a LOT of action. I even saw the "Leader" storm a machine and tell an elderly Asian woman to buzz off when she tried to poach the machine after their mark lost his money.
I started messing with the leader when he was brazenly sitting behind me while I played Buffalo Ascension by taking out my Phone and pretending to take selfies, but clearly having his fat, greedy face in the frame and kept holding the phone up High for him to see. He finally noticed it, threw a hissy fit and buggered off!
Funny enough, the machine went into the Super Stampede mode not long after and I made out a little over $800! If only he didn't get scared off... Hahaha!
link to original post
The irony of course would have been if casino surveillance trespassed you for taking photos of the other customers.
And I am half serious too.
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Eh, I see barely 21 year old Tik Tok wannabes doing live streams, snap chats and selfies at the slots ALL NIGHT. I'll just say I'm a
"Content Creator" and these lurkers are accidentally in my shot. As long as my face appears in the video for even 1 second, they can't prove otherwise!
Besides, they're in MY space and deserve to be called out. The casino can't feign ignorance on what they're doing while simultaneously acting like they KNOW what I'm doing!
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How is just posting on here about 21 year old Tik Tok wannabees showing up in your shots when you say you're a Content Creator calling them out? 🤨😐 I personally think REALLY calling them out would be you doing a video with these hangerons and then you telling them off in the video while they are with you on camera for being desperate hangerons would be a TRUE example of calling them out. Like saying something like,"You don't even KNOW me and you decided to come be in my video shot just because I said I was a Content Creator. You are obviously desperate hangerons." 💡
While I have had bad experiences with Asian groups in the past ( even physical violence).
I have meet a few of these guy currently doing this and they have been very chill and sociable with me.
I might initially stereotype them when it comes to al this, but I'm not going to make any hard stances when it comes to this stuff.
It's really a moot point for me as I haven't really done much vultureing since pre 2003. I don't plan on doing any now that im mostly retired.
Quote: NathanQuote: 7NeverWinsQuote: darkozQuote: 7NeverWinsI recently ran to a Flock of Vultures at a Casino I hadn't visited in OVER a YEAR! It was one of the lesser frequented Casinos in AC, on the Marina side. Since I was in town the whole week for a convention and needed a Friday night, I had to stay here and had no complaints. Rooms were nicer since last visit, check in was super easy with Kiosk and the new eateries were quite good!
EXCEPT... these vultures were clearly working in teams and seemingly were at war with one another when a machine was getting a LOT of action. I even saw the "Leader" storm a machine and tell an elderly Asian woman to buzz off when she tried to poach the machine after their mark lost his money.
I started messing with the leader when he was brazenly sitting behind me while I played Buffalo Ascension by taking out my Phone and pretending to take selfies, but clearly having his fat, greedy face in the frame and kept holding the phone up High for him to see. He finally noticed it, threw a hissy fit and buggered off!
Funny enough, the machine went into the Super Stampede mode not long after and I made out a little over $800! If only he didn't get scared off... Hahaha!
link to original post
The irony of course would have been if casino surveillance trespassed you for taking photos of the other customers.
And I am half serious too.
link to original post
Eh, I see barely 21 year old Tik Tok wannabes doing live streams, snap chats and selfies at the slots ALL NIGHT. I'll just say I'm a
"Content Creator" and these lurkers are accidentally in my shot. As long as my face appears in the video for even 1 second, they can't prove otherwise!
Besides, they're in MY space and deserve to be called out. The casino can't feign ignorance on what they're doing while simultaneously acting like they KNOW what I'm doing!
link to original post
How is just posting on here about 21 year old Tik Tok wannabees showing up in your shots when you say you're a Content Creator calling them out? 🤨😐 I personally think REALLY calling them out would be you doing a video with these hangerons and then you telling them off in the video while they are with you on camera for being desperate hangerons would be a TRUE example of calling them out. Like saying something like,"You don't even KNOW me and you decided to come be in my video shot just because I said I was a Content Creator. You are obviously desperate hangerons." 💡
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You clearly misunderstood, I meant IF I was confronted by security and was threatened in any way for filming, I would use the excuse that I was NOT filming the machine and making Social Media content, like the aforementioned 20 something year old tik toker that was not confronted!
If the security then persisted that I was filming other patrons without their permission, I would then reiterate that I was filming myself and the lurker was lurking at the risk of being in the video knowing full well what he is doing there and why security isn't doing anything about THAT instead!
So I would be calling them out, subtly, and proving my innocence of any alleged offense!
Quote: 7NeverWinsQuote: NathanQuote: 7NeverWinsQuote: darkozQuote: 7NeverWinsI recently ran to a Flock of Vultures at a Casino I hadn't visited in OVER a YEAR! It was one of the lesser frequented Casinos in AC, on the Marina side. Since I was in town the whole week for a convention and needed a Friday night, I had to stay here and had no complaints. Rooms were nicer since last visit, check in was super easy with Kiosk and the new eateries were quite good!
EXCEPT... these vultures were clearly working in teams and seemingly were at war with one another when a machine was getting a LOT of action. I even saw the "Leader" storm a machine and tell an elderly Asian woman to buzz off when she tried to poach the machine after their mark lost his money.
I started messing with the leader when he was brazenly sitting behind me while I played Buffalo Ascension by taking out my Phone and pretending to take selfies, but clearly having his fat, greedy face in the frame and kept holding the phone up High for him to see. He finally noticed it, threw a hissy fit and buggered off!
Funny enough, the machine went into the Super Stampede mode not long after and I made out a little over $800! If only he didn't get scared off... Hahaha!
link to original post
The irony of course would have been if casino surveillance trespassed you for taking photos of the other customers.
And I am half serious too.
link to original post
Eh, I see barely 21 year old Tik Tok wannabes doing live streams, snap chats and selfies at the slots ALL NIGHT. I'll just say I'm a
"Content Creator" and these lurkers are accidentally in my shot. As long as my face appears in the video for even 1 second, they can't prove otherwise!
Besides, they're in MY space and deserve to be called out. The casino can't feign ignorance on what they're doing while simultaneously acting like they KNOW what I'm doing!
link to original post
How is just posting on here about 21 year old Tik Tok wannabees showing up in your shots when you say you're a Content Creator calling them out? 🤨😐 I personally think REALLY calling them out would be you doing a video with these hangerons and then you telling them off in the video while they are with you on camera for being desperate hangerons would be a TRUE example of calling them out. Like saying something like,"You don't even KNOW me and you decided to come be in my video shot just because I said I was a Content Creator. You are obviously desperate hangerons." 💡
link to original post
You clearly misunderstood, I meant IF I was confronted by security and was threatened in any way for filming, I would use the excuse that I was NOT filming the machine and making Social Media content, like the aforementioned 20 something year old tik toker that was not confronted!
If the security then persisted that I was filming other patrons without their permission, I would then reiterate that I was filming myself and the lurker was lurking at the risk of being in the video knowing full well what he is doing there and why security isn't doing anything about THAT instead!
So I would be calling them out, subtly, and proving my innocence of any alleged offense!
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Okay, sorry, for some weird reason, I thought you meant that 21 year old Tik Tok wannabees were showing up in your PRIVATE video shoots because you said you were a Content Creator and they wanted their 15 minutes of fame despite not even knowing you. You are correct, I completely misunderstood. 😀💡
Quote: MukkeQuote: darkozI just listened to that video. I find the whole argument disingenuous.
So the casinos should be concerned that ploppies aren't getting proper value because they lose quicker when the AP games are negative. So they have a worse experience and don't want to come back.
That seems to be their argument.
Okay then why would a casino install triple zero roulette where ploppies who don't get it will lose their money faster and not come back because of their worse experience?
I can't stand hypocrisy!
link to original post
You're too binary in how you look at this.
When a casino moves from double-0 to tripple-0 they are increasing the hold AND THEIR TAKE from 5.3% to 7.7%. Which by the way is still a lot lower than slots. While not great for their customers, the casino makes more money so they are OK with that tradeoff.
When a casino changes their slot hold average from 8% to 10% (which I conceptually believe has happened in vegas over time), they are increasing the hold AND THEIR TAKE. While not great for their customers, the casino makes more money so they are OK with that tradeoff.
When a casino installs an AP machine, the average hold while non-aps are playing it goes from 10% to 25% (feel free to plot in your own number here. The point is that number is far less than the average 10% to make up for the +EV experienced later). However this does NOT increase the casino's take, because they are still only subject to the long-term hold which is still 10%. So this is bad for their bread-and-butter customer without any saving grace for the casino.
So yeah, that argument is absolutely valid.
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But not all non APs will experience worse than the 10% hold. Many will experience a much better hold when a machine is say at 99% not quite good enough for an AP yet.
Many non APs will even experience positive EV on these machines from randomly playing them when they are at positive EV. (Not enough APs in the world to play all plus EV machines at all times)
Often times too when Non APs experience a worse hold to build up machines to positive it will be negligible, ie 100 recs losing a few dollars in equity each since most slot players play small bets ie 50 cents, 75cents, etc.
Quote: BrickapotamusQuote: MukkeQuote: darkozI just listened to that video. I find the whole argument disingenuous.
So the casinos should be concerned that ploppies aren't getting proper value because they lose quicker when the AP games are negative. So they have a worse experience and don't want to come back.
That seems to be their argument.
Okay then why would a casino install triple zero roulette where ploppies who don't get it will lose their money faster and not come back because of their worse experience?
I can't stand hypocrisy!
link to original post
You're too binary in how you look at this.
When a casino moves from double-0 to tripple-0 they are increasing the hold AND THEIR TAKE from 5.3% to 7.7%. Which by the way is still a lot lower than slots. While not great for their customers, the casino makes more money so they are OK with that tradeoff.
When a casino changes their slot hold average from 8% to 10% (which I conceptually believe has happened in vegas over time), they are increasing the hold AND THEIR TAKE. While not great for their customers, the casino makes more money so they are OK with that tradeoff.
When a casino installs an AP machine, the average hold while non-aps are playing it goes from 10% to 25% (feel free to plot in your own number here. The point is that number is far less than the average 10% to make up for the +EV experienced later). However this does NOT increase the casino's take, because they are still only subject to the long-term hold which is still 10%. So this is bad for their bread-and-butter customer without any saving grace for the casino.
So yeah, that argument is absolutely valid.
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But not all non APs will experience worse than the 10% hold. Many will experience a much better hold when a machine is say at 99% not quite good enough for an AP yet.
Many non APs will even experience positive EV on these machines from randomly playing them when they are at positive EV. (Not enough APs in the world to play all plus EV machines at all times)
Often times too when Non APs experience a worse hold to build up machines to positive it will be negligible, ie 100 recs losing a few dollars in equity each since most slot players play small bets ie 50 cents, 75cents, etc.
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Plus let's add that non-AP's don't always leave the machines when they are in positive states. Most of the time they keep playing. As pointed out many will keep playing until broke and that goes for playing on AP games too.
So ploppie plays for two hours. He experiences a dozen cycles of positive EV but keeps playing through the negative as well until broke.
The AP meanwhile plays just that one cycle left by the ploppie.
It's not like ploppies don't ever benefit or experience the positive EV of variable state games.
Joe public has no clue what an RTP is and doesn’t care. If they lose on a machine they are even more likely to try and play again to win. In a way AP’s help the casino make their games unbeatable and the ploppies coming back for more.
This is disinformation.Quote: SlotenthusiastFurthermore casinos wouldn’t have AP games if it didn’t help their bottom line.
You wouldn't think casinos would knowingly have AP games if they knew it was hurting their bottom line, I don't think they realize exactly what's happening. Casinos make dumb mistakes all the time sometimes those mistakes can go on for long periods of time before they realize it. This is just another one of their mistakes.
This has been happening on and off for years I have seen it many times, it goes in cycles, and eventually, they'll smarten up once they realize more about what's going on. Rinse and repeat.
It's not just machines, it's the same with promotions one Casino will run a promotion and their coin in goes up significantly. The next thing you know everyone's running the same type of promotion. Eventually, the advantage players take a big enough bite out of their bottom line that they do away with the promotion.
There was a time when everybody and their brother had a 100% loss rebate of some kind eventually they got hurt enough by Advantage Players and now they are few and far between.
Quote: AxelWolfThis is disinformation.Quote: SlotenthusiastFurthermore casinos wouldn’t have AP games if it didn’t help their bottom line.
You wouldn't think casinos would knowingly have AP games if they knew it was hurting their bottom line, I don't think they realize exactly what's happening. Casinos make dumb mistakes all the time sometimes those mistakes can go on for long periods of time before they realize it. This is just another one of their mistakes.
This has been happening on and off for years I have seen it many times, it goes in cycles, and eventually, they'll smarten up once they realize more about what's going on. Rinse and repeat.
It's not just machines, it's the same with promotions one Casino will run a promotion and their coin in goes up significantly. The next thing you know everyone's running the same type of promotion. Eventually, the advantage players take a big enough bite out of their bottom line that they do away with the promotion.
There was a time when everybody and their brother had a 100% loss rebate of some kind eventually they got hurt enough by Advantage Players and now they are few and far between.
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It’s not disinformation I’ve spoken with upper management at multiple casinos. They know people have play for bonuses and have flat out told me they don’t care so long as you aren’t bothering guests and trying to get them off the machine.
AP machines have been around for over 20 years. If they weren’t profitable the casinos would have stopped installing them long ago.
Advantage Play Machines have been around a lot longer than 20 years. I'm not saying variable State machines are not profitable to the casino, I'm saying that they will be less profitable to the casino in the long run. Regardless, the fact is that the casinos make mistakes and have had non-profitable machines in their casinos for long periods of time.Quote: SlotenthusiastQuote: AxelWolfThis is disinformation.Quote: SlotenthusiastFurthermore casinos wouldn’t have AP games if it didn’t help their bottom line.
You wouldn't think casinos would knowingly have AP games if they knew it was hurting their bottom line, I don't think they realize exactly what's happening. Casinos make dumb mistakes all the time sometimes those mistakes can go on for long periods of time before they realize it. This is just another one of their mistakes.
This has been happening on and off for years I have seen it many times, it goes in cycles, and eventually, they'll smarten up once they realize more about what's going on. Rinse and repeat.
It's not just machines, it's the same with promotions one Casino will run a promotion and their coin in goes up significantly. The next thing you know everyone's running the same type of promotion. Eventually, the advantage players take a big enough bite out of their bottom line that they do away with the promotion.
There was a time when everybody and their brother had a 100% loss rebate of some kind eventually they got hurt enough by Advantage Players and now they are few and far between.
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It’s not disinformation I’ve spoken with upper management at multiple casinos. They know people have play for bonuses and have flat out told me they don’t care so long as you aren’t bothering guests and trying to get them off the machine.
AP machines have been around for over 20 years. If they weren’t profitable the casinos would have stopped installing them long ago.
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Just curious, why are you speaking to upper management about this? FYI sometime upper management are not too smart either.
Quote: AxelWolfI can't predict the future but if the past is any indicator of what's going to happen, eventually they will pull most of the vulture machines out or change them significantly and fewer will be made for a while, and then it'll happen all over again.
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It’s not a matter if AP’s are profitable to the casino. It’s a matter of how less profitable they are. 99 percent of AP’s are profitable to the casino as they lack discipline.
Same goes for poker players. They are way less profitable to the casino than slot players. So are blackjack players who play perfect strategy. Should the casino just get rid of all blackjack and poker because a few people are less profitable than the masses?
A player doing one quarter a play on cleopatra keno isn’t as profitable as a slot player. A slot player only playing $1 a spin is not as profitable as one doing $25 a spin. Should the casino get rid of all keno and make slots a minimum of $25 a spin? You clearly lack the proper business acumen to even be commenting on this topic let alone opining as some kind of expert.
What if a stock broker said “Ya know these large savvy traders that generate a ton of commissions for us through all their transactions are taking money from the uneducated retail investors that are on the other sides of their trades.
Let’s put a stop to this because we deserve all the retail investor’s money and if not for these savvy traders there would be a lot more money to lift off these retail investors, but they go broke before we can lift every last cent from them in fees & commissions because of these savvy traders.”
A ridiculous scenario, but how is this logic any different other than the fact that a stock broker’s commissions are minuscule compared to the 10% to 15% a casino is going to hold on every dollar played?
Quote: BrickapotamusA casino makes 10% to 15% of every dollar cycled through their machines. The long term math will work itself out.
What if a stock broker said “Ya know these large savvy traders that generate a ton of commissions for us through all their transactions are taking money from the uneducated retail investors that are on the other sides of their trades.
Let’s put a stop to this because we deserve all the retail investor’s money and if not for these savvy traders there would be a lot more money to lift off these retail investors, but they go broke before we can lift every last cent from them in fees & commissions because of these savvy traders.”
A ridiculous scenario, but how is this logic any different other than the fact the a stock broker’s commissions are minuscule compared to the 10% to 15% a casino is going to hold on every dollar played?
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It isn’t any different. What you have here are people commenting who aren’t skilled enough to be AP’s letting their jealousy get the best of them. Gone are the days of obvious AP plays like game 9/10 on scarab and bubbles on ocean magic. It takes me weeks of time and lots of money to figure out entry points for new AP opportunities. I also track specific days and times which are more or less profitable. Certain casinos are busier than others and I want to be where I’m in the best position to make money. There are a whole host of other metrics involved in doing AP now. It’s not like you just walk around Willy Nilly and make thousands of dollars.
A successful slot AP requires 100x more brains and discipline than a card counter. Anyone can count to 7 and adjust their bets accordingly. Very few can be successful slot AP’s.
Quote: 7NeverWinsQuote: darkozQuote: 7NeverWinsI recently ran to a Flock of Vultures at a Casino I hadn't visited in OVER a YEAR! It was one of the lesser frequented Casinos in AC, on the Marina side. Since I was in town the whole week for a convention and needed a Friday night, I had to stay here and had no complaints. Rooms were nicer since last visit, check in was super easy with Kiosk and the new eateries were quite good!
Besides, they're in MY space and deserve to be called out. The casino can't feign ignorance on what they're doing while simultaneously acting like they KNOW what I'm doing!
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They certainly can.The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
Quote: AxelWolf
Just curious, why are you speaking to upper management about this? FYI sometime upper management are not too smart either.
In the last 30 years I have had meetings with casino CEO's, CFO's, Slot Directors, and Slot Techs. Most of them have no clue how slot machines work and how to best utilize them. I doubt there are more than 2 of them in the whole country that know more about advantage play than some of the members of this forum.
Quote: SlotenthusiastHow could you possibly know that? I would not call them APs if that's the case. From my experience 95% of the AP's I know have discipline and hurt the casino's bottom line.Quote: AxelWolf
. 99 percent of AP’s are profitable to the casino as they lack discipline.♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Back in the early 90's when I worked for the Frontier the head of the Slot department told me that the next hand of Video Poker or Keno was random, however on slots the next hand was predetermined so it didn't matter who or when someone walked up to that machine, the predetermined amount was going to hit.Quote: DRichQuote: AxelWolf
Just curious, why are you speaking to upper management about this? FYI sometime upper management are not too smart either.
In the last 30 years I have had meetings with casino CEO's, CFO's, Slot Directors, and Slot Techs. Most of them have no clue how slot machines work and how to best utilize them. I doubt there are more than 2 of them in the whole country that know more about advantage play than some of the members of this forum.
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Quote: DRichQuote: AxelWolf
Just curious, why are you speaking to upper management about this? FYI sometime upper management are not too smart either.
In the last 30 years I have had meetings with casino CEO's, CFO's, Slot Directors, and Slot Techs. Most of them have no clue how slot machines work and how to best utilize them. I doubt there are more than 2 of them in the whole country that know more about advantage play than some of the members of this forum.
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If you were to have an honest discussion with a casino manager about advantage slot play you’d get one of two responses.
1. No such thing as an advantage player, no one beats the house.
2. We know they do it but it doesn’t matter to me. At the end of the day they are probably gambling addicts like everyone else.
Do you work in the casino industry or something, as I am still puzzled as to why you're talking to so many Casino executives?Quote: SlotenthusiastQuote: DRichQuote: AxelWolf
Just curious, why are you speaking to upper management about this? FYI sometime upper management are not too smart either.
In the last 30 years I have had meetings with casino CEO's, CFO's, Slot Directors, and Slot Techs. Most of them have no clue how slot machines work and how to best utilize them. I doubt there are more than 2 of them in the whole country that know more about advantage play than some of the members of this forum.
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If you were to have an honest discussion with a casino manager about advantage slot play you’d get one of two responses.
1. No such thing as an advantage player, no one beats the house.
2. We know they do it but it doesn’t matter to me. At the end of the day they are probably gambling addicts like everyone else.
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Quote: AxelWolfDo you work in the casino industry or something, as I am still puzzled as to why you're talking to so many Casino executives?Quote: SlotenthusiastQuote: DRichQuote: AxelWolf
Just curious, why are you speaking to upper management about this? FYI sometime upper management are not too smart either.
In the last 30 years I have had meetings with casino CEO's, CFO's, Slot Directors, and Slot Techs. Most of them have no clue how slot machines work and how to best utilize them. I doubt there are more than 2 of them in the whole country that know more about advantage play than some of the members of this forum.
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If you were to have an honest discussion with a casino manager about advantage slot play you’d get one of two responses.
1. No such thing as an advantage player, no one beats the house.
2. We know they do it but it doesn’t matter to me. At the end of the day they are probably gambling addicts like everyone else.
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I interact with them at least once a month as I spend more time in casinos than home. They know what I do and don’t care they laugh and say you’ll give it all back or someone has to win. They literally don’t care
Quote: AxelWolfBack in the early 90's when I worked for the Frontier the head of the Slot department told me that the next hand of Video Poker or Keno was random, however on slots the next hand was predetermined so it didn't matter who or when someone walked up to that machine, the predetermined amount was going to hit.
That doesn't surprise me at all. One of the things that shocked me when I started working with casinos was how many of the people were superstitious. I expected so much more of the people running the casinos.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm not sure why any respectable casino would want their place infested with Asian vulture "gangs" hustlers and druggies.
I have meet a few of these guy currently doing this and they have been very chill and sociable with me.
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I make 5 figures AP'ing part time.
I'm in and out like Flynn. I find it mind numbing to camp.
It also kills my $ per hr rate. I'd rather do double digit $ per hr for a short period than single $ per hr being there all day even if i net slightly more $.
How much do these Asian teams make being there full time?
Do they clear 6 figures each?
Quote: 100xOdds
How much do these Asian teams make being there full time?
Do they clear 6 figures each?
I highly doubt that. I am sure some do but the majority are probably making less than $50k because they are just basically employees.
Quote: DRichBack in the late 90's I got to know one of my neighbors well who was a Slot Tech for the Stratosphere, if I recall correctly.Quote: AxelWolf
Slot Techs. /link]
He had all kinds of crazy theories and claimed he could beat Video Poker by identifying cycles or some nonsense.
He was super confident in his beliefs and he was a really nice guy he even worked for me on and off oftentimes just holding good machines prior to Promotions and whatnot. So I didn't put too much time and effort into calling bullshit.
One of the things he was claiming... if you could identify when the 41,000 mark was coming up a on video poker machine you would be the one who got the Royal. As one could imagine, and as he also pointed out, the practicality of something like that would take a lot of work and effort.
Apparently, in other casinos, he would identify a machine that got a lot of play and estimate how many hands have been played. Then he would ask employees if it had hit a royal within that time frame. Apparently, he hit a few Royals along the way doing this(confirmation bias).
When his system didn't work he would assume that a royal had hit on a different shift or that he got the wrong information.
Once he told me this, I asked him why he didn't just target individual or small bank progressives and just count the meter movement and that would determine how many hands had been played and if the Royal had hit or not with a little or no effort. He said he hadn't even thought about that.
As one could imagine, this didn't end well for him.♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Quote: DRichQuote: 100xOddsHow much do these Asian teams make being there full time?
Do they clear 6 figures each?
I highly doubt that. I am sure some do but the majority are probably making less than $50k because they are just basically employees.
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Vulture teams as employees? (I was thinking husband/wife/relatives/close friends)
Never heard of that before.
I know broke hustlers who hold +ev seats and get a commission.
So a vulture 'Foreman' gives his broke employees $x to go find plays?
At the end of the day, he gives them a cut of the profits?
Just like multi-carding employees, you have to trust them not to skim $.
The last guy that I talked to was in Washington State, it wasn't easy communicating with him as he didn't speak much English, we were using a translator app for much of the conversation. I assured him I had little or no interest in vulturing and he knew that I was from Las Vegas. He was also interested in doing some things in Las Vegas. As to one of the reasons I think he was open to telling me.Quote: 100xOddsQuote: AxelWolfI'm not sure why any respectable casino would want their place infested with Asian vulture "gangs" hustlers and druggies.
I have meet a few of these guy currently doing this and they have been very chill and sociable with me.
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I make 5 figures AP'ing part time.
I'm in and out like Flynn. I find it mind numbing to camp.
It also kills my $ per hr rate. I'd rather do double digit $ per hr for a short period than single $ per hr being there all day even if i net slightly more $.
How much do these Asian teams make being there full time?
Do they clear 6 figures each?
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When I asked him how much he was making per day and how many hours he actually pulled up some type of app on his phone and told me so I think he was looking at something I believe it was a little over $400 on average ,and he worked about 12 hours a day.
I know a group of three early 20's white kids who are 2nd generation AP's that were all definitely making around $400 a day as of a year or so ago. I don't recall how many hours they were working. Oh yeah, and this is in Las Vegas.
Quote: Slotenthusiast
If you were to have an honest discussion with a casino manager about advantage slot play you’d get one of two responses.
1. No such thing as an advantage player, no one beats the house.
2. We know they do it but it doesn’t matter to me. At the end of the day they are probably gambling addicts like everyone else.
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I think that mentality has changed drastically in the past few years.
Given the crackdown on slot rebates in Vegas and the increasing number of games that don't accept Free Play redemption.
The recent Rescinding of Free Play offers at MGM properties was a pretty big warning that the easy pickings are over.
When one door closes another one opens, oftentimes it's even better. Sometimes it's a good thing because you're not looking and finding better things when you're too involved in something already. I've noticed with free play, they will tighten up for a while and then suddenly it becomes really good again. It might take a year for a particular location before they start ramping up again.Quote: 7NeverWinsQuote: Slotenthusiast
If you were to have an honest discussion with a casino manager about advantage slot play you’d get one of two responses.
1. No such thing as an advantage player, no one beats the house.
2. We know they do it but it doesn’t matter to me. At the end of the day they are probably gambling addicts like everyone else.
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I think that mentality has changed drastically in the past few years.
Given the crackdown on slot rebates in Vegas and the increasing number of games that don't accept Free Play redemption.
The recent Rescinding of Free Play offers at MGM properties was a pretty big warning that the easy pickings are over.
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Quote: AxelWolfWhen one door closes another one opens, oftentimes it's even better. Sometimes it's a good thing because you're not looking and finding better things when you're too involved in something already. I've noticed with free play, they will tighten up for a while and then suddenly it becomes really good again. It might take a year for a particular location before they start ramping up again.Quote: 7NeverWinsQuote: Slotenthusiast
If you were to have an honest discussion with a casino manager about advantage slot play you’d get one of two responses.
1. No such thing as an advantage player, no one beats the house.
2. We know they do it but it doesn’t matter to me. At the end of the day they are probably gambling addicts like everyone else.
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I think that mentality has changed drastically in the past few years.
Given the crackdown on slot rebates in Vegas and the increasing number of games that don't accept Free Play redemption.
The recent Rescinding of Free Play offers at MGM properties was a pretty big warning that the easy pickings are over.
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True.
And this is why I tried to be honest about sometimes I make $20,000 a week. It may last a few months. Then in my experience something inevitably happens (even COVID) that suddenly I am not making anything or something extremely limited and small.
But some people apparently take umbrage that a person might make $20,000 a week but not every week
Quote: darkoz
But some people apparently take umbrage that a person might make $20,000 a week but not every week
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(snipped)
People getting upset about that is hard to understand.
Some months your ship comes in. Some, it doesn't.
Some weeks the markets do great. Some, they don't.
Lots of businesses are variable.
Quote: AxelWolfWhen one door closes another one opens, oftentimes it's even better. Sometimes it's a good thing because you're not looking and finding better things when you're too involved in something already. I've noticed with free play, they will tighten up for a while and then suddenly it becomes really good again. It might take a year for a particular location before they start ramping up again.Quote: 7NeverWinsQuote: Slotenthusiast
If you were to have an honest discussion with a casino manager about advantage slot play you’d get one of two responses.
1. No such thing as an advantage player, no one beats the house.
2. We know they do it but it doesn’t matter to me. At the end of the day they are probably gambling addicts like everyone else.
link to original post
I think that mentality has changed drastically in the past few years.
Given the crackdown on slot rebates in Vegas and the increasing number of games that don't accept Free Play redemption.
The recent Rescinding of Free Play offers at MGM properties was a pretty big warning that the easy pickings are over.
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I hear you. I remember when the Casinos re-opened in 2020 and people flooded the tables and machines with their new found Unemployment Riches! Couldn't get a spot at a table for HOURS and the limited slots made it tough to utilize Free play AP'ing.
However, by 2021 the urgency had reduced tremendously and it was certainly easier to get freebies and other perks that were not so generously given by hosts. Now they had Comps to spare and didn't want to risk a bad write up for NOT helping loyal patrons.
