Higher denom is bad?
How it works is this:
At one penny the game plays 50 lines. But then at $1 it only plays 5 lines. Same screen, same symbols.
As a result playing max $5 at the one cent level you seem to go up and down a lot as you get fifty ways to win.
Switch to the $1 and.play max $50 then you only have five ways to win. Suddenly those winning combos are neutral or void.
I understand you aren't paying for those lines technically but it seems to play flat suddenly. Spin after spin with $50 and zero won. Meanwhile play $5 max at a penny and you lose $5, won back $4 etc.
Extremely frustrating when three bonus symbols at the penny gives a bonus round and at the $1 gives nothing because it's on an unplayed line.
As a result I seem to do much worse at higher denoms than lower ones.
Quote: DRichIn Nevada as the bet increases the RTP can not go down.
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Interesting.
Well unfortunately this is East Coast so maybe you guys don't have this issue.
Quote: darkozQuote: DRichIn Nevada as the bet increases the RTP can not go down.
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Interesting.
Well unfortunately this is East Coast so maybe you guys don't have this issue.
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The RTP may not be decreasing, even if a $1/5 Line game has different variance than a $0.01/50 Line game.
Subjectively, one is a feast or famine experience; the other just "seems Kinda Fun".
Quote: DRichIn Nevada as the bet increases the RTP can not go down.
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In another thread the wizard said
Quote: WizardQuote: 100xOddswhy a lower entry point the higher the bet value?
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The more you bet in this game, the higher the RTP. You should be more picky about jumping in at a low bet level, because you'll lose more waiting for a bonus.
However, I think I should have also considered the denom, not just the number of credits bet.
I may reword my advice on this, but it seems reasonable to me there would be a range if you accept the notion the RTP and bet amount are correlated. I have evidence they are, but I'm not at liberty to state what the evidence is.
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So why would you reason that the opposite can not happen?
yup.. Lucky coin in a nut shell. :(Quote: darkozI notice on multi-denom machines a trend to make the higher denomination pay worse.
How it works is this:
At one penny the game plays 50 lines. But then at $1 it only plays 5 lines. Same screen, same symbols.
As a result playing max $5 at the one cent level you seem to go up and down a lot as you get fifty ways to win.
Switch to the $1 and.play max $50 then you only have five ways to win. Suddenly those winning combos are neutral or void.
I understand you aren't paying for those lines technically but it seems to play flat suddenly. Spin after spin with $50 and zero won. Meanwhile play $5 max at a penny and you lose $5, won back $4 etc.
Extremely frustrating when three bonus symbols at the penny gives a bonus round and at the $1 gives nothing because it's on an unplayed line.
As a result I seem to do much worse at higher denoms than lower ones.
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And add progressive and free game symbol blockers, you really have to get lucky to get a good line hit
Quote: heatmapQuote: DRichIn Nevada as the bet increases the RTP can not go down.
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In another thread the wizard saidQuote: WizardQuote: 100xOddswhy a lower entry point the higher the bet value?
link to original post
The more you bet in this game, the higher the RTP. You should be more picky about jumping in at a low bet level, because you'll lose more waiting for a bonus.
However, I think I should have also considered the denom, not just the number of credits bet.
I may reword my advice on this, but it seems reasonable to me there would be a range if you accept the notion the RTP and bet amount are correlated. I have evidence they are, but I'm not at liberty to state what the evidence is.
link to original post
So why would you reason that the opposite can not happen?
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If you are asking why I think the RTP can not go down when betting more on the same game, because Nevada Gaming Control Board regulates that. As someone who has designed and programmed numerous slot machines I do know that Nevada Gaming checks for that.
Quote: DRichQuote: heatmapQuote: DRichIn Nevada as the bet increases the RTP can not go down.
link to original post
In another thread the wizard saidQuote: WizardQuote: 100xOddswhy a lower entry point the higher the bet value?
link to original post
The more you bet in this game, the higher the RTP. You should be more picky about jumping in at a low bet level, because you'll lose more waiting for a bonus.
However, I think I should have also considered the denom, not just the number of credits bet.
I may reword my advice on this, but it seems reasonable to me there would be a range if you accept the notion the RTP and bet amount are correlated. I have evidence they are, but I'm not at liberty to state what the evidence is.
link to original post
So why would you reason that the opposite can not happen?
link to original post
If you are asking why I think the RTP can not go down when betting more on the same game, because Nevada Gaming Control Board regulates that. As someone who has designed and programmed numerous slot machines I do know that Nevada Gaming checks for that.
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i guess what im trying to get you to clarify is that although its not possible legally to lower the percentage as the bet increases, it is possible to do the opposite and increase the RTP as the bet increases?
Quote: heatmapQuote: DRichQuote: heatmapQuote: DRichIn Nevada as the bet increases the RTP can not go down.
link to original post
In another thread the wizard saidQuote: WizardQuote: 100xOddswhy a lower entry point the higher the bet value?
link to original post
The more you bet in this game, the higher the RTP. You should be more picky about jumping in at a low bet level, because you'll lose more waiting for a bonus.
However, I think I should have also considered the denom, not just the number of credits bet.
I may reword my advice on this, but it seems reasonable to me there would be a range if you accept the notion the RTP and bet amount are correlated. I have evidence they are, but I'm not at liberty to state what the evidence is.
link to original post
So why would you reason that the opposite can not happen?
link to original post
If you are asking why I think the RTP can not go down when betting more on the same game, because Nevada Gaming Control Board regulates that. As someone who has designed and programmed numerous slot machines I do know that Nevada Gaming checks for that.
link to original post
i guess what im trying to get you to clarify is that although its not possible legally to lower the percentage as the bet increases, it is possible to do the opposite and increase the RTP as the bet increases?
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Yes it is and many games do that. I have never seen big increases but games I worked on might go up a half percent or so depending on the bet.
Quote: DRichQuote: heatmapQuote: DRichQuote: heatmapQuote: DRichIn Nevada as the bet increases the RTP can not go down.
link to original post
In another thread the wizard saidQuote: WizardQuote: 100xOddswhy a lower entry point the higher the bet value?
link to original post
The more you bet in this game, the higher the RTP. You should be more picky about jumping in at a low bet level, because you'll lose more waiting for a bonus.
However, I think I should have also considered the denom, not just the number of credits bet.
I may reword my advice on this, but it seems reasonable to me there would be a range if you accept the notion the RTP and bet amount are correlated. I have evidence they are, but I'm not at liberty to state what the evidence is.
link to original post
So why would you reason that the opposite can not happen?
link to original post
If you are asking why I think the RTP can not go down when betting more on the same game, because Nevada Gaming Control Board regulates that. As someone who has designed and programmed numerous slot machines I do know that Nevada Gaming checks for that.
link to original post
i guess what im trying to get you to clarify is that although its not possible legally to lower the percentage as the bet increases, it is possible to do the opposite and increase the RTP as the bet increases?
link to original post
Yes it is and many games do that. I have never seen big increases but games I worked on might go up a half percent or so depending on the bet.
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I have an off topic question for you
say i want to create a slot machine - i have no clue if this has ever been done before but im going to assume it might have
my idea works like this -
i have static reels size doesnt matter in this example. On each spin I am choosing a starting point on each reel randomly. This is how I assume a basic slot machine works.
the way my slot machine will differ is that for each spin, and before the random stop position is chosen - i will randomly assign a number of the stopping positions a random probability amount - and the random probability amounts are the numbers that are then used in the generation of the random numbers
example
this is an example of a pregenerated probability table that could come out after the spin button is pressed but before the results are actually generated
| Reel | Stopping Position | Probability Of being chosen |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 1 | 50% |
| 1 | 2 | 25% |
| 1 | 3 | 25% |
instead of just grabbing a random number, scaling, and then using that number on the strip, there is the process of assigning or creating the random probability table.
does this make any sense to you or am i just rambling on about crazy stuff?
Quote: heatmap
I have an off topic question for you
say i want to create a slot machine - i have no clue if this has ever been done before but im going to assume it might have
my idea works like this -
i have static reels size doesnt matter in this example. On each spin I am choosing a starting point on each reel randomly. This is how I assume a basic slot machine works.
the way my slot machine will differ is that for each spin, and before the random stop position is chosen - i will randomly assign a number of the stopping positions a random probability amount - and the random probability amounts are the numbers that are then used in the generation of the random numbers
example
this is an example of a pregenerated probability table that could come out after the spin button is pressed but before the results are actually generated
Reel Stopping Position Probability Of being chosen 1 1 50% 1 2 25% 1 3 25%
instead of just grabbing a random number, scaling, and then using that number on the strip, there is the process of assigning or creating the random probability table.
does this make any sense to you or am i just rambling on about crazy stuff?
I think I understand your process but I don't know what your goal is or how it would change anything. The blended averages of you pre-generated probability table could just be put into a static reel strip to generate the same results.
Quote: DRichQuote: heatmap
I have an off topic question for you
say i want to create a slot machine - i have no clue if this has ever been done before but im going to assume it might have
my idea works like this -
i have static reels size doesnt matter in this example. On each spin I am choosing a starting point on each reel randomly. This is how I assume a basic slot machine works.
the way my slot machine will differ is that for each spin, and before the random stop position is chosen - i will randomly assign a number of the stopping positions a random probability amount - and the random probability amounts are the numbers that are then used in the generation of the random numbers
example
this is an example of a pregenerated probability table that could come out after the spin button is pressed but before the results are actually generated
Reel Stopping Position Probability Of being chosen 1 1 50% 1 2 25% 1 3 25%
instead of just grabbing a random number, scaling, and then using that number on the strip, there is the process of assigning or creating the random probability table.
does this make any sense to you or am i just rambling on about crazy stuff?
I think I understand your process but I don't know what your goal is or how it would change anything. The blended averages of you pre-generated probability table could just be put into a static reel strip to generate the same results.
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thank you ... ill have more random questions months down the line maybe years lol
Here is a recent example
Quote: darkoz
Here is a recent example
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Based on that I don't see how the higher denom is worse and I would be surprised if it is. Most jurisdictions have a rule where a higher bet can not pay worse than a lower bet.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkoz
Here is a recent example
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Based on that I don't see how the higher denom is worse and I would be surprised if it is. Most jurisdictions have a rule where a higher bet can not pay worse than a lower bet.
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What happens is half the wins don't happen at the higher denom.
What might be free games at the lower denom is a zero win depending on the configuration
Quote: darkozQuote: DRichQuote: darkoz
Here is a recent example
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Based on that I don't see how the higher denom is worse and I would be surprised if it is. Most jurisdictions have a rule where a higher bet can not pay worse than a lower bet.
link to original post
What happens is half the wins don't happen at the higher denom.
What might be free games at the lower denom is a zero win depending on the configuration
link to original post
You can not tell that without looking at the paytable. If all pays doubled then it would be the same. Many games change the paytable depending on denom or bet.
Quote: darkoz
What happens is half the wins don't happen at the higher denom.
What might be free games at the lower denom is a zero win depending on the configuration
link to original post
Darkoz, I think your implicit fallacy is that you assume that the reel strips and stop likelihoods are the same. If that was the case, then I would indeed agree with you that fewer lines would equal lower payback. But if we can agree that this is not the case, then you really should simply look at the different bets, especially when the number of lines are different) as 2 completely different slots. The fact they use similar symbols is really just a visual aid.
And yes, I do agree that the higher bets with fewer lines tend to have higher VARIANCE. I wouldn't say they have lower RTP though.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkozQuote: DRichQuote: darkoz
Here is a recent example
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Based on that I don't see how the higher denom is worse and I would be surprised if it is. Most jurisdictions have a rule where a higher bet can not pay worse than a lower bet.
link to original post
What happens is half the wins don't happen at the higher denom.
What might be free games at the lower denom is a zero win depending on the configuration
link to original post
You can not tell that without looking at the paytable. If all pays doubled then it would be the same. Many games change the paytable depending on denom or bet.
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I will examine Two different machines in two different jurisdictions. I will be passing through within the next few weeks. Photos to come.
Not saying you are wrong. Just going to examine where you say to look to see if that's the case.
Quote: MukkeQuote: darkoz
What happens is half the wins don't happen at the higher denom.
What might be free games at the lower denom is a zero win depending on the configuration
link to original post
Darkoz, I think your implicit fallacy is that you assume that the reel strips and stop likelihoods are the same. If that was the case, then I would indeed agree with you that fewer lines would equal lower payback. But if we can agree that this is not the case, then you really should simply look at the different bets, especially when the number of lines are different) as 2 completely different slots. The fact they use similar symbols is really just a visual aid.
And yes, I do agree that the higher bets with fewer lines tend to have higher VARIANCE. I wouldn't say they have lower RTP though.
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As I say to Drich, I will take some photos of some paytables to these machines.
I should note that in both cases I have seen this and in different states, this was primarily on shared denomination Must Hits so considering them as separate slots seems counterintuitive.
To be clear shared denomination Must hits means the amount of the must hit remains the same for all denom changes. While unshared means changing the denom (say $1 to $2) changes the Must Hit by some multiple or not even any relationship between them.
Quote: darkoz
As I say to Drich, I will take some photos of some paytables to these machines.
I should note that in both cases I have seen this and in different states, this was primarily on shared denomination Must Hits so considering them as separate slots seems counterintuitive.
To be clear shared denomination Must hits means the amount of the must hit remains the same for all denom changes. While unshared means changing the denom (say $1 to $2) changes the Must Hit by some multiple or not even any relationship between them.
Even if the pay tables are the same they could have different paybacks based on different reel strips or different bonus payouts. I used to do almost all of my games with the same paytable and same reel strips. I would just change the amounts awarded in bonuses or number of free spins. I did it that way so people that are looking would always think it is the same.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkoz
As I say to Drich, I will take some photos of some paytables to these machines.
I should note that in both cases I have seen this and in different states, this was primarily on shared denomination Must Hits so considering them as separate slots seems counterintuitive.
To be clear shared denomination Must hits means the amount of the must hit remains the same for all denom changes. While unshared means changing the denom (say $1 to $2) changes the Must Hit by some multiple or not even any relationship between them.
Even if the pay tables are the same they could have different paybacks based on different reel strips or different bonus payouts. I used to do almost all of my games with the same paytable and same reel strips. I would just change the amounts awarded in bonuses or number of free spins. I did it that way so people that are looking would always think it is the same.
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Guaranteed the number of free spins is the same at either denomination in at least one of them because I have played.
The photo of the slot I last posted not certain. Will check it this weekend.
I guess the only way to verify if amounts awarded in bonuses is different is to play until I get bonuses in different denominations? Or is even that misleading?
Quote: darkoz
I guess the only way to verify if amounts awarded in bonuses is different is to play until I get bonuses in different denominations? Or is even that misleading?
I would assume there is still randomness involved so you would have to hit many bonuses and average them out.
What i used to do on free spin games was program them so you would get more free spins on average the higher the RTP of the game. Usually my base games were exactly the same.
Example: 90%= 8 to 12 spins with an average of 10, 92% 8 to 13 spins with an average of 11, 94% 8 to 14 spins with an average of 12, etc.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkoz
I guess the only way to verify if amounts awarded in bonuses is different is to play until I get bonuses in different denominations? Or is even that misleading?
I would assume there is still randomness involved so you would have to hit many bonuses and average them out.
What i used to do on free spin games was program them so you would get more free spins on average the higher the RTP of the game. Usually my base games were exactly the same.
Example: 90%= 8 to 12 spins with an average of 10, 92% 8 to 13 spins with an average of 11, 94% 8 to 14 spins with an average of 12, etc.
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While we wait for me to collect data, I question why this practice exists? And that for bankroll purposes it still is bad for the player as the variance rises sky-high when at a higher denom you get half the winning combinations to trigger (yes long run getting paid more equals the same RTP but meanwhile you need a requisite higher bankroll.
So double the denomination would to most people assume double the bankroll but add in half the winning lines and you really need four times the bankroll.
So my thread title (higher denom is bad?) I still think is valid.
If it was a table game it would be ridiculous. Imagine Blackjack where anyone with black chip wagers gets paid 2:1 on Blackjack BUT only "Black" Blackjack. Red Ace blackjack is even money. You get a red blackjack and get paid even money while the guy next to your wager with red chips gets paid 3:2 with a red ace blackjack.
Talk about fomenting Ill will. What's the purpose?
When you are running bad less lines will seem worse.
In some cases I will give up some RTP & play a lower denom on an MHB where all the denoms have the same MHB.
Yes I give up some EV (sacrilege to some) but I have a better chance of making a profit on the play, & a better chance of more cash on hand to take on other plays.
For mhb, i rather do 3lines x 5coins than 5lines x 3 coins.Quote: BrickapotamusWhen you are running good less lines will seem great compared to more lines.
When you are running bad less lines will seem worse.
In some cases I will give up some RTP & play a lower denom on an MHB where all the denoms have the same MHB.
Yes I give up some EV (sacrilege to some) but I have a better chance of making a profit on the play, & a better chance of more cash on hand to take on other plays.
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both cost 15 coins but i prefer the higher payout when i hit than the lower payout but waste $ on missing the other 4 lines
Also, i'm unaware that mhb have a higher rtp the higher the denom.
i've seen the setup screen on Mustang (both $5k and $10k versions) and there's no option to selectively set rtp based on bet level.
Quote: 100xOddsFor mhb, i rather do 3lines x 5coins than 5lines x 3 coins.Quote: BrickapotamusWhen you are running good less lines will seem great compared to more lines.
When you are running bad less lines will seem worse.
In some cases I will give up some RTP & play a lower denom on an MHB where all the denoms have the same MHB.
Yes I give up some EV (sacrilege to some) but I have a better chance of making a profit on the play, & a better chance of more cash on hand to take on other plays.
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both cost 15 coins but i prefer the higher payout when i hit than the lower payout but waste $ on missing the other 4 lines
Also, i'm unaware that mhb have a higher rtp the higher the denom.
i've seen the setup screen on Mustang (both $5k and $10k versions) and there's no option to selectively set rtp based on bet level.
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On Ainsworth I don’t think the RTP changes by bet level on the same denom, but I think it can be set that way on the Ainsworth multi choice games that have more than one denom option for the same MHB.
The game I was referring to was actually a different manufacturer than Ainsworth
