Class 2 slot machines are non exploitable?
The slots here are strange in that they have recognizable advantage machines (like Ocean Magic Grand & Dragon Sphere) that do not contain the persistent state features (wilds that move up or down the screen). Instead after every spin any wilds that were present simply vanish and an entirely new screen appears that may or may not have new wilds on it. Obviously, this cannot be hustled so I naturally never played these. They, however, do have Magic of Nile and Golden Egpyt Grand which have the characteristic features you collect (colored tiles and golden coins, respectively). So I just stuck to these. I've played here like 30+ hours vulturing these games and I'm up several thousand.
Until recently I had no idea that these casinos are Class 2 gaming only, which means none of the machines I vultured are class 3 but instead all are class 2. Does this mean I should never have played these, and I'm up so much by sheer chance??
Thanks in advance for any advice, I'm totally freaking out over this blunder.
Regards,
Dalmatian
Quote: DalmatianI live near a group of slots only casinos that are all owned by the same Indian Tribe. It's convenient to stop there on my way back from a card counting trip and hustle some slots to get some extra EV.
The slots here are strange in that they have recognizable advantage machines (like Ocean Magic Grand & Dragon Sphere) that do not contain the persistent state features (wilds that move up or down the screen). Instead after every spin any wilds that were present simply vanish and an entirely new screen appears that may or may not have new wilds on it. Obviously, this cannot be hustled so I naturally never played these. They, however, do have Magic of Nile and Golden Egpyt Grand which have the characteristic features you collect (colored tiles and golden coins, respectively). So I just stuck to these. I've played here like 30+ hours vulturing these games and I'm up several thousand.
Until recently I had no idea that these casinos are Class 2 gaming only, which means none of the machines I vultured are class 3 but instead all are class 2. Does this mean I should never have played these, and I'm up so much by sheer chance??
Thanks in advance for any advice, I'm totally freaking out over this blunder.
Regards,
Dalmatian
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It's so obvious what the answer is with Golden Egypt grand. Keep vulturing.
What is so confusing to me is how a class 2 slot machine can have "persistent state" features like their Golden Egypt and Magic of Nile games. Since the payout are determined by the bingo system, these accumulated multipliers must be just for show.
Doubled checks and somehow I'm up 1800$ after 26 hours of thinking im vultureing beatable machines.
I feel so used.
Quote: DalmatianI just confirmed. All these slots are class 2 gaming bingo games. The tip off should have been no other slot hustlers competition and the fact that their ocean magic and dragon sphere wilds disappear after each spin.
What is so confusing to me is how a class 2 slot machine can have "persistent state" features like their Golden Egypt and Magic of Nile games. Since the payout are determined by the bingo system, these accumulated multipliers must be just for show.
Doubled checks and somehow I'm up 1800$ after 26 hours of thinking im vultureing beatable machines.
I feel so used.
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can you take a picture of these slot machines i want to see if they have the "bingo" boards displayed on the machine...
im trying to find a case where the jurisdictions do not require the operators to display them on their machines...
mind if i ask which jurisdiction you are in?
Yes I have pictures and will disclose the location. Private message me and I can send you pics on discord or something.
Thanks
FWIW. I have recently come across a bingo-machine that is also AP'able. I'm still scratching my head on that one. Feel free to message privately if you want to discuss more.
1. Find 2 machines next to each other (playing the same game)
2. If they show a bingo board, change the board so they share some number
3. play a couple of spins where you spin both machines at roughly the same time
You will observe:
1. even if you don't press play at exactly the same time, the machine will actually stop they wheel in more or less perfect synchronization - because each machine is waiting for the result of the same bingo drawing.
2. For machines that show the bingo board and/or numbers drawn, you can see both machines shared the same drawing.
I imagine the above (observation 1) would help in identifying games that are bingo based even if they are not obviously displaying this.
Pic of this 'bingo rules' box?Quote: DalmatianYes this place makes it very difficult to see this is a class 2 machine. There is no bingo board and it looks and plays almost 100% as a normal class 3 Magic of Nile or Golden Egypt Grand.
The only difference is there is a very small "bingo rules" box on the bottom right corner.
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I don't know if there are two types of class 2? A Bingo version? That might make a difference.
But class 2 are definitely vulturable.
And I don’t need the jurisdiction if the bingo box is there
3 locations. 2 casinos right next to each other in Montgomery and one outside Mobile in Atmore.
They have Ocean Magic Grand & Dragon Sphere where the wild bubbles/dragons disappear at the end of each round so no advantage there.
They have Scarab/Diamond Mania where the collected scarab things on game 10/10 turn wild BUT the game reshuffles them to random positions on the screen (so having scarabs build up near left of screen is not more advantageous than on right side).
They have Magic of Nile & Golden Egypt Grand where these games play exactly like normal class 3 machines of this name would. Colored tiles collect from Magic and 3 of the same color triggers a bonus round. For golden egpyt Grand there are the usual golden coins that collect above the reels and once all coins collect in a particular reel, it turns wild for that many spins.
However, all 5 of these games at Wind Creek Alabama have the small "Bingo Rules" box at the right hand bottom of the screen. When you open that up it says very clearly that the game is bingo and the reels are for entertainment purposes only and the payouts are determined by a bingo system. Further, there are no true hustlers at any of these casinos, just crackhead Alabama poppy trash that might occasionally check a machine then go back to playing whatever garbage they're addicted to. I am literally the only person pacing around the machines to check them all.
Finally, there is no bingo score sheet or whatever that looks like. Again, the only thing that tips it off is the tiny bingo rules box on the far bottom right corner. I'm by no means an experienced advanced slot hustler, but I have slot hustled a decent amount of hours over the past few months and I know most of the popular advantage machines. I was completely fooled by the Alabama bingo slots bc they look completely like the other machines I play or see in casinos with normal class 3 slots.
I'm mostly a blackjack player and when I go on road trips to Mississippi/Louisiana from Atlanta I pass through Alabama so being able to play these slots was convenient and hopefully some more light gets shed as I'm still not 100% on whether there is something here or not.
Dalmatian
Quote: Dalmatian
However, all 5 of these games at Wind Creek Alabama have the small "Bingo Rules" box at the right hand bottom of the screen. When you open that up it says very clearly that the game is bingo and the reels are for entertainment purposes only and the payouts are determined by a bingo system. Further, there are no true hustlers at any of these casinos, just crackhead Alabama poppy trash that might occasionally check a machine then go back to playing whatever garbage they're addicted to. I am literally the only person pacing around the machines to check them all.
Finally, there is no bingo score sheet or whatever that looks like. Again, the only thing that tips it off is the tiny bingo rules box on the far bottom right corner. I'm by no means an experienced advanced slot hustler, but I have slot hustled a decent amount of hours over the past few months and I know most of the popular advantage machines. I was completely fooled by the Alabama bingo slots bc they look completely like the other machines I play or see in casinos with normal class 3 slots.
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saving this for my own notes
and what should usually happen at least from what i thought happened was that when you activated the slot machine there is a small "reveal" of your bingo card and the results
something like this
I thought this was funny.. I hit a Bonus, and while it was playing I decided to look up my pattern on the adjacent machine, so I could see what my bonus would pay before it finished.
I didn't take a picture after it finished for "proof", but yes, it ended up paying the expected amount ($219.20).
Notice the bingo board in the lower left corner of the first machine. The red numbers called match the pattern on the right. On the right, only the relevant numbers making part of this particular pattern are green, while the 2 red positions are marked numbers that didn't contribute to the pattern.
One interesting thing to note is how I can change the bet level in the help screen to see what it would pay had I bet different amounts. The win amounts are actually very different (not just multiplied according to bet). Sometimes the same pattern would have paid LESS if I had bet more. Other times, having bet differently might have included a progressive and such.
Quote: heatmapcan someone explain how the bingo board relates to probabilites
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Does this game award on straight line patterns only? What is the order of evaluation (you can complete 3 lines with 1 ball)? Complex pattern covered in the first 25 balls? Tiered complex patterns (covered in 10 balls is one pay, covered in 20 is a different pay, covered in 35 is yet a different pay)?
Is there a separate bonus for 4 corners in 4 balls?
Do the bonus round free spins get evaluated by their own draws (yes, there is at least one)?
Is the first matching pattern the prize awarded, or is the highest value matching pattern the prize awarded?
That said, it usually takes me at least a few days to understand how the paytable and game rules interact.
It would stand to reason that for a bingo game with fixed prizes and game ending when the first player triggers something, you would be at a significant disadvantage the more players are participating. Someone on a different forum said that "Class 2 is parimutuel wagering", and concluding that if only 2 people are playing, then prices cannot exceed that of the wagers of the 2 players.
Both those points don't really match reality in my mind, so... I really don't understand how the element of "players playing against each other" actually works in the case of class 2 slots..
Quote: MukkeSomeone on a different forum said that "Class 2 is parimutuel wagering", and concluding that if only 2 people are playing, then prices cannot exceed that of the wagers of the 2 players.
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I usually see a minimum quorum of 6 players.
Since many games may consist of 12 players betting $2 each with a prize of $2*, I think that the occasional game awarding some lucky player $219 tends to work out.
(I too am interested in the exact workings. I'll understand if there are some things I'm not allowed to know.)
*: Arbitrary number.
Quote: Dieter
I'll understand if there are some things I'm not allowed to know
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best part about knowledge is that even you can know and understand everything even when it isnt meant for you unless its encrypted
Quote: heatmapQuote: Dieter
I'll understand if there are some things I'm not allowed to know
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best part about knowledge is that even you can know and understand everything even when it isnt meant for you unless its encrypted
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“Once and for all, there are many things I choose not to know.--Wisdom sets limits even to knowledge.”
Quote: unJonQuote: heatmapQuote: Dieter
I'll understand if there are some things I'm not allowed to know
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best part about knowledge is that even you can know and understand everything even when it isnt meant for you unless its encrypted
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“Once and for all, there are many things I choose not to know.--Wisdom sets limits even to knowledge.”
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This quote made me think of the movie stargate for some reason
This really opens up a whole unseen world about Bingo Slots that I never knew existed, and I've got to figure it carries over to Class 3 machines in some way.
Quote: ChumpChangeThe guy playing the Buffalo Xtreme slots said he hit card #2560 for $100 plus a $20K JP, and it was right there on the bingo card under P1. Since he was playing for $4.50 instead of $2.25, he won $100 instead of $50, but the progressive was the same.
This really opens up a whole unseen world about Bingo Slots that I never knew existed, and I've got to figure it carries over to Class 3 machines in some way.
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Something else to look for. Thanks!
🤫 THERE'S A SECRET 'TELL' ON BUFFALO EXTREME WHEN YOU'LL WIN A PROGRESSIVE JACKPOT! 🎰 - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLAU2fTCuZw
Quote: DieterQuote: ChumpChangeThis really opens up a whole unseen world about Bingo Slots that I never knew existed, and I've got to figure it carries over to Class 3 machines in some way.
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Something else to look for. Thanks!
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I found one bank of these.
I gave the machine a few minutes and $25.
It has a distinct Class II feel.
It has the common VGT feature where a new card is randomly assigned with every new game. (Bingo display can be disabled with a touchscreen button above the denomination indicator; if it says "Bingo display off" that means the bingo display is currently enabled. The bingo display uses the topmost edge and upper left corner of the curved main screen, which appeared to put it about 7 feet off the floor.)
As far as I can tell, Buffalo Xtreme is only available as a Class II game (Aristocrat software on VGT hardware). What it has in common with the related Nevada type machines seems to be some artwork and sound effects.
Bonus spins did NOT appear to have a separate bingo draw, similar to other VGT games I have played. Bonus spins are for entertainment purposes only; the win happened a second after the PLAY/DAUB button was pressed, so unlucky timing in the bonus didn't alter your award.
I did NOT do a thorough review of the paytable to confirm my suspicion that not all progressive awards are available at other than maximum bet.
The paytable structure appeared to match bet level with covered pattern to produce a game result consisting of a fixed credit value and possibly a progressive award.
Center square free (XX).
Quote: rsactuaryIt should probably be noted here that Aristocrat purchased VGT a few years back. So it made sense that they'd take their most popular symbol, being the Buffalo family of games, and turn it into a Class II.
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Dang, no kidding?
I had AGS stuck in my head for some reason.
Quote: DieterQuote: rsactuaryIt should probably be noted here that Aristocrat purchased VGT a few years back. So it made sense that they'd take their most popular symbol, being the Buffalo family of games, and turn it into a Class II.
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Dang, no kidding?
I had AGS stuck in my head for some reason.
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I have a wind creek near me in Pennsylvania and they have these games “fully random” no bingo card
My next question to you is if the next time you go take a picture of the spin and the probabilities once before and once after the spin? You will have 4 images in the end
I want to see if certain parents line up with a specific feature
Quote: heatmapQuote: DieterQuote: rsactuaryIt should probably be noted here that Aristocrat purchased VGT a few years back. So it made sense that they'd take their most popular symbol, being the Buffalo family of games, and turn it into a Class II.
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Dang, no kidding?
I had AGS stuck in my head for some reason.
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I have a wind creek near me in Pennsylvania and they have these games “fully random” no bingo card
My next question to you is if the next time you go take a picture of the spin and the probabilities once before and once after the spin? You will have 4 images in the end
I want to see if certain parents line up with a specific feature
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Probabilities? What?? (Progressives?)
PMs are open, as usual.
Quote: DieterQuote: heatmapQuote: DieterQuote: rsactuaryIt should probably be noted here that Aristocrat purchased VGT a few years back. So it made sense that they'd take their most popular symbol, being the Buffalo family of games, and turn it into a Class II.
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Dang, no kidding?
I had AGS stuck in my head for some reason.
link to original post
I have a wind creek near me in Pennsylvania and they have these games “fully random” no bingo card
My next question to you is if the next time you go take a picture of the spin and the probabilities once before and once after the spin? You will have 4 images in the end
I want to see if certain parents line up with a specific feature
link to original post
Probabilities? What?? (Progressives?)
PMs are open, as usual.
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my fault i misread something on my first video never mind sorry to waste your time
Quote: heatmapQuote: DieterQuote: heatmapQuote: DieterQuote: rsactuaryIt should probably be noted here that Aristocrat purchased VGT a few years back. So it made sense that they'd take their most popular symbol, being the Buffalo family of games, and turn it into a Class II.
link to original post
Dang, no kidding?
I had AGS stuck in my head for some reason.
link to original post
I have a wind creek near me in Pennsylvania and they have these games “fully random” no bingo card
My next question to you is if the next time you go take a picture of the spin and the probabilities once before and once after the spin? You will have 4 images in the end
I want to see if certain parents line up with a specific feature
link to original post
Probabilities? What?? (Progressives?)
PMs are open, as usual.
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my fault i misread something on my first video never mind sorry to waste your time
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No worries. I apparently hadn't realized that VGT was now putting out Nevada style slots, nor that this theme could be one of them.
Celebrating lifelong learning... -D
Where I go, I would say that maybe 1/4th of all linked progressives have this trait - when one machine hits a bonus or pick-3 type of feature where someone might eventually win a progressive, the other machines will immediately reset any progressive they player is about to get.
Another variation of the above: Progressives are frequently "behind".. I.e. if you are playing a game and the minor is showing 139.34 and still counting up, when you hit the progressive (if on a single play), you might end up with it jumping to and plying $142.42 I assume it is designed like that so it can do the smooth counting up even if players take a break or play at inconsistent speeds. If you hit a bonus/pick 3 feature, you might notice that ALL the progressives immediately jump higher and stop moving. This is an indication that you are going to get one of the progressives. Best example of this is class 2 Fire Link.
Years ago Washington casinos used a cashless card system. You loaded the card up with money then you put that in the machine and your credits were added and subtracted to that card as you played(It's been a while so I dont recall the exact details of how they worked). If you entered a bonus round, let's say it's one where you have to pick somthing or press start to engage the bonus. If you pulled out your cash card prior to starting/finishing the bonus, the money you would have won in the bonus round would allready be added to your card. And no, you couldn't put the card back in the machine finish the bonus, and get paid a 2nd time.Quote: MukkeFYI.. the "secret" tell is very common and well known to players outside of Nevada - at least in WA. And no - it doesn't give some kind of edge, it just is a consequence of Class 2 (outcome decided as soon as you play, regardless of what bells and whistles the machine may use to delay showing you the result.
Where I go, I would say that maybe 1/4th of all linked progressives have this trait - when one machine hits a bonus or pick-3 type of feature where someone might eventually win a progressive, the other machines will immediately reset any progressive they player is about to get.
Another variation of the above: Progressives are frequently "behind".. I.e. if you are playing a game and the minor is showing 139.34 and still counting up, when you hit the progressive (if on a single play), you might end up with it jumping to and plying $142.42 I assume it is designed like that so it can do the smooth counting up even if players take a break or play at inconsistent speeds. If you hit a bonus/pick 3 feature, you might notice that ALL the progressives immediately jump higher and stop moving. This is an indication that you are going to get one of the progressives. Best example of this is class 2 Fire Link.
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So, electronic scratchers, with a video entertainment feature.
Does that line up with what others remember?
Quote: DieterIf I recall correctly, "tribal lottery" is one of the underlying mechanisms in Washington, not bingo.
So, electronic scratchers, with a video entertainment feature.
Does that line up with what others remember?
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WA has both class III (Tribal Lottery System) and class II Bingo machines. Lately I am seeing a lot more bingo machines than previously.
what's tribal lottery?Quote: DieterIf I recall correctly, "tribal lottery" is one of the underlying mechanisms in Washington, not bingo.
So, electronic scratchers, with a video entertainment feature.
Does that line up with what others remember?
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and how is it different than class II bingo?
Why is Class II called bingo anyway?
it's more like pull-tabs at carnivals
Quote: 100xOddswhat's tribal lottery?Quote: DieterIf I recall correctly, "tribal lottery" is one of the underlying mechanisms in Washington, not bingo.
So, electronic scratchers, with a video entertainment feature.
Does that line up with what others remember?
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and how is it different than class II bingo?
Why is Class II called bingo anyway?
it's more like pull-tabs at carnivals
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"Tribal lottery" is a lottery operated by a tribe... it's the pulltab type game, as near as I can tell. The element of chance is which pulltab you get from the remaining pool.
Bingo slots use a bingo game as the element of chance.
Both are Class II as far as I know.
Class III is Nevada style slots.
Quote: Dieter
"Tribal lottery" is a lottery operated by a tribe... it's the pulltab type game, as near as I can tell. The element of chance is which pulltab you get from the remaining pool.
Bingo slots use a bingo game as the element of chance.
Both are Class II as far as I know.
Class III is Nevada style slots.
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I never understood it myself, but the TLS in WA is usually referred to as Class III:
https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/tribal-gaming/tribal-lottery-system
https://fortress.wa.gov/wsgc/etransfer/OnlineServices/lab/docs/appendix-x.pdf (Appendix X to the Class 3 gaming compact, governing the Tribal Lottery System)
sorry its professor slot
also check this link out about how they talk about programming them
https://www.casinocenter.com/class-ii-is-it-fair/
Quote: Mukke
I never understood it myself, but the TLS in WA is usually referred to as Class III:
https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/tribal-gaming/tribal-lottery-system
https://fortress.wa.gov/wsgc/etransfer/OnlineServices/lab/docs/appendix-x.pdf (Appendix X to the Class 3 gaming compact, governing the Tribal Lottery System)
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Very informative.
I probably assumed that since it wasn't a Nevada type random reel slot, it must be Class II.
Quote: 100xOdds
Why is Class II called bingo anyway?
it's more like pull-tabs at carnivals
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I believe Class I was live bingo, and Class II became electronic bingo at the earliest forms of the NIGA.
states laws have their own definitions of what a slot machine can be
Quote: Dieter
Something else to look for. Thanks!
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280 pages of paytable patterns.
Each pattern awards a different result at each different bet level.
The P1 and P2 progressives could be awarded at bet levels other than maximum.
I did see some patterns being evaluated differently if they were covered in a different number of balls drawn.
I did not scroll through the entire (roughly) 300 screen help menu and bingo paytable recording all the patterns and restrictions for analysis.
Quote: Mukke
I never understood it myself, but the TLS in WA is usually referred to as Class III:
https://www.wsgc.wa.gov/tribal-gaming/tribal-lottery-system
https://fortress.wa.gov/wsgc/etransfer/OnlineServices/lab/docs/appendix-x.pdf (Appendix X to the Class 3 gaming compact, governing the Tribal Lottery System)
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I also do not understand all the nuances.
The state seems to prohibit Nevada style slots & VP (individual player vs machine), but they want a cut of the revenue by compact, so TLS (e-scratchers + an amusement display) games seem to be permitted under class III.
I can believe Class II gaming (like bingo slots) would be popular with the casinos because of a different revenue sharing structure (at least in other states).
like i said my memory is not the best and i wouldnt even know where to start looking for that specific person and quote
Quote: heatmapim most likely making this up but at one point in time i could have sworn the wizard or one of the people who program these machines saying that they are all "essentially" the same thing and they "dont know why there is a difference"
like i said my memory is not the best and i wouldnt even know where to start looking for that specific person and quote
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They are most definitely NOT the same thing. Tribal lottery machines are class 2 I don’t care what the state of Washington refers to them as. These tribal lottery systems put a batch of electronic tickets in every bank. Each batch of tickets must pay the minimum payback percentage required by law. If they load 10000 tickets and the payback percentage thus far is only 65 percent with one ticket remaining the last ticket will dump the remaining 15 percent or up to the minimum payback percentage guaranteed in the form of a payout. Compare this to class 3 where there’s no finite amount of spins required to pay a prize or even out the payback percentage.
Quote: 100xOdds
Why is Class II called bingo anyway?
it's more like pull-tabs at carnivals
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Eep, I may have missed this a year ago.
Some Class II machines definitely are bingo based rather than lottery based.
Some of those bingo-slots have progressives.
