Do different machines have different RTP
I used to play some classic slots and lose 1 out of 3 coins I put in, so I didn't hang around for a big payout.
It’s possible for different manufacturers to have the same rtp
Quote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
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tThey are definitely different. Having worked 25 years with the casinos I can say that for a fact.
Quote: rxwineHow easy is it for the Indian casinos to change the return day to day on any given machine.
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It depends on their internal procedures. I would guess that the process takes about 5 minutes per machine. In 25 years I have never known a single casino to make changes often. I would be surprised if most machines get their RTP changed once a year.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineHow easy is it for the Indian casinos to change the return day to day on any given machine.
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It depends on their internal procedures. I would guess that the process takes about 5 minutes per machine. In 25 years I have never known a single casino to make changes often. I would be surprised if most machines get their RTP changed once a year.
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So you are saying the eye in the sky guy doesn't have a switch he can hit as I switch from machine to machine? It certainly feels like he does.
Quote: billryanQuote: DRichQuote: rxwineHow easy is it for the Indian casinos to change the return day to day on any given machine.
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It depends on their internal procedures. I would guess that the process takes about 5 minutes per machine. In 25 years I have never known a single casino to make changes often. I would be surprised if most machines get their RTP changed once a year.
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So you are saying the eye in the sky guy doesn't have a switch he can hit as I switch from machine to machine? It certainly feels like he does.
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At most casino's the answer is no. I would guess that about 1% of slot machines offer the ability to change the hold remotely. 99% of the machines actually require someone to go to each machine and configure it.
Quote: billryan
So you are saying the eye in the sky guy doesn't have a switch he can hit as I switch from machine to machine? It certainly feels like he does.
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My understanding is that a machine must generally be out of service for a period of time before a "reconfiguration" of this type is applied.
From what I've seen, it is common to switch a slot bank to Out of Service one day, apply the reconfiguration on a subsequent day, confirm that the new configurations are as desired, then restore the machines to service.
I think I heard that minimum four minute delays before and after were common in cases of network applied reconfiguration. You'd notice; blue screen and none of the buttons work during the delay.
I feel like this is a bad move, though. It has sparked so many tin foil theories about them adjusting the play depending on what info they've gathered from your players card
Quote: DRichQuote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
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tThey are definitely different. Having worked 25 years with the casinos I can say that for a fact.
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What part of the country are you in and are you talking Indian casino or commercial casino?
I've found a board for slot machine technicians and I've been polling them. So far, I've only gotten 4 firm answers (everyone else wants to explain all the nuances without giving an answer.) 3 people said their casinos have all the machines set very similarly and 1 person said they vary quite a bit. "Usually within about 2%, but I have seen machines over the years that were lower by up to 6%.
Quote: DRich
At most casino's the answer is no. I would guess that about 1% of slot machines offer the ability to change the hold remotely. 99% of the machines actually require someone to go to each machine and configure it.
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Yes, I can't say which ones do and which ones don't, but I am aware that at least one jurisdiction has the caveat that a slot machine be shutdown for a particular amount of time (I think it's a few minutes) before the RTP can be changed. So, even if a casino had that capacity in that jurisdiction, it wouldn't be legal...although, I doubt if they would get caught.
Quote: ChumpChangeOnce a week my local casino has a free slot tournament. Dozens of machines look the same. I'm sure they weren't like that the day before. They were probably a dozen or more different slot machines, and then abra-ca-dabra, they're all the same for the tourney.
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You're probably right. It's just a tournament mode that can be built into slot machines. Everi is one slot manufacturer that has this.
Quote: billryanPerhaps I'm mistaken but didn't Harrahs/Caesarswhatever propose a few years ago to have machines respond to the card level that was inserted? In other words, 7 Stars players would play on machines that returned slightly more than someone using a gold card? It never happened, but I remember it being discussed. It was during the Loveman regime.
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I never heard of that, but I wouldn't put it past them. We had the thread about that upstart company that wants to produce a players card system (for comp purposes) to Index comps to either be better or worse based on how well a person plays Video Poker.
Quote: ChumpChangeOnce a week my local casino has a free slot tournament. Dozens of machines look the same. I'm sure they weren't like that the day before. They were probably a dozen or more different slot machines, and then abra-ca-dabra, they're all the same for the tourney.
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I see this as well; I also often see a slot tech taking the bank out of service as players leave machines, so the bank can be switched to tournament mode instead of cash play mode.
Quote: Mission146Quote: billryanPerhaps I'm mistaken but didn't Harrahs/Caesarswhatever propose a few years ago to have machines respond to the card level that was inserted? In other words, 7 Stars players would play on machines that returned slightly more than someone using a gold card? It never happened, but I remember it being discussed. It was during the Loveman regime.
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I never heard of that, but I wouldn't put it past them. We had the thread about that upstart company that wants to produce a players card system (for comp purposes) to Index comps to either be better or worse based on how well a person plays Video Poker.
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That company is Acres. I doubt it will be very popular as I assume it is very expensive to convert a poker machine to it. Fortunately casinos hate video poker so hopefully the will not spend the money.
Quote: Jimmy21Quote: DRichQuote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
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tThey are definitely different. Having worked 25 years with the casinos I can say that for a fact.
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What part of the country are you in and are you talking Indian casino or commercial casino?
I've found a board for slot machine technicians and I've been polling them. So far, I've only gotten 4 firm answers (everyone else wants to explain all the nuances without giving an answer.) 3 people said their casinos have all the machines set very similarly and 1 person said they vary quite a bit. "Usually within about 2%, but I have seen machines over the years that were lower by up to 6%.
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I am based in Vegas but have probably done some work at half of the casinos in this country both native and state based.
Quote: DRich
That company is Acres. I doubt it will be very popular as I assume it is very expensive to convert a poker machine to it. Fortunately casinos hate video poker so hopefully the will not spend the money.
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Aren't they promoting a variable coin-in per point earned rate based on player skill?
I hadn't heard about a paytable reconfiguration based on player card.
Quote: DRichQuote: Jimmy21Quote: DRichQuote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
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tThey are definitely different. Having worked 25 years with the casinos I can say that for a fact.
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What part of the country are you in and are you talking Indian casino or commercial casino?
I've found a board for slot machine technicians and I've been polling them. So far, I've only gotten 4 firm answers (everyone else wants to explain all the nuances without giving an answer.) 3 people said their casinos have all the machines set very similarly and 1 person said they vary quite a bit. "Usually within about 2%, but I have seen machines over the years that were lower by up to 6%.
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I am based in Vegas but have probably done some work at half of the casinos in this country both native and state based.
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I have a bunch of questions. Would it be alright to PM you? I'm working on a youtube video about dispelling slot machine myths. What I'm finding is that a lot of them are based on truths and could be half true and some things are only true in certain casinos
In your experience, are the PARs set around whether the machine is leased or not or is it more random and/or complicated than that?
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Common knowledge in the industry. Machines have a meter which counts coin in/out, then it has a PROM chip which computes all the possible results on a given roll and adjust based on the meter. The PROM can operate within certain predetermined parameters as long as they meet state gaming regulations (iirc they cannot have a HA over 25%). That's aggregate, so on a given roll all possible permutations can be adjusted as long as the aggregate odds comes out to be no more than a 25% HA. No machine is going to pay out two $100,000 jackpots in a row -- instead it'll increase the chances of lower jackpots until the coin in is high enough for a jackpot to still be profitable.
Plausible or tin foil conspiracy?
That said, this would be true of certain Class II games simply because the big pay is actually removed from the pool of possible results. If there was only one $100,000 winner (in some cases) in a particular set of results and no new results are added to the pool, then the probability of the next spin being a $100,000 winner is 0%.
With Class III, however, I would be surprised if this would even be permitted, but DRich could clarify. I think that, "No machine is going to pay out two $100,000 jackpots in a row," is kind of an unintentionally misleading claim and one difficult to prove wrong. If it has never happened, then that's likely because it would simply be an extremely low probability event followed by another extremely low probability event, but I don't think that means that the probability is itself lower on the second spin of the two.
Quote: Jimmy21I'm working on a youtube video about dispelling slot machine myths. What I'm finding is that a lot of them are based on truths and could be half true and some things are only true in certain casinos
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most myths are not myths - they are true somewhere - but are untrue in specific jurisdictions
Quote: Mission146Prior to disagreeing, I guess I would first want to know who, "He," is. The source of the information is going to be a pretty big factor in how much I would tend to believe the claim, which currently sits at, "Not at all."
That said, this would be true of certain Class II games simply because the big pay is actually removed from the pool of possible results. If there was only one $100,000 winner (in some cases) in a particular set of results and no new results are added to the pool, then the probability of the next spin being a $100,000 winner is 0%.
With Class III, however, I would be surprised if this would even be permitted, but DRich could clarify. I think that, "No machine is going to pay out two $100,000 jackpots in a row," is kind of an unintentionally misleading claim and one difficult to prove wrong. If it has never happened, then that's likely because it would simply be an extremely low probability event followed by another extremely low probability event, but I don't think that means that the probability is itself lower on the second spin of the two.
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What is a class 2 or class 3 machine?
Quote: Jimmy21Quote: Mission146Prior to disagreeing, I guess I would first want to know who, "He," is. The source of the information is going to be a pretty big factor in how much I would tend to believe the claim, which currently sits at, "Not at all."
That said, this would be true of certain Class II games simply because the big pay is actually removed from the pool of possible results. If there was only one $100,000 winner (in some cases) in a particular set of results and no new results are added to the pool, then the probability of the next spin being a $100,000 winner is 0%.
With Class III, however, I would be surprised if this would even be permitted, but DRich could clarify. I think that, "No machine is going to pay out two $100,000 jackpots in a row," is kind of an unintentionally misleading claim and one difficult to prove wrong. If it has never happened, then that's likely because it would simply be an extremely low probability event followed by another extremely low probability event, but I don't think that means that the probability is itself lower on the second spin of the two.
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What is a class 2 or class 3 machine?
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Something you should probably know before you make a video on slot machines. Vegas-style casinos, Indian casinos, and racinos all use different types of machines, and each class operates different than the others.
Quote: billryanQuote: Jimmy21Quote: Mission146Prior to disagreeing, I guess I would first want to know who, "He," is. The source of the information is going to be a pretty big factor in how much I would tend to believe the claim, which currently sits at, "Not at all."
That said, this would be true of certain Class II games simply because the big pay is actually removed from the pool of possible results. If there was only one $100,000 winner (in some cases) in a particular set of results and no new results are added to the pool, then the probability of the next spin being a $100,000 winner is 0%.
With Class III, however, I would be surprised if this would even be permitted, but DRich could clarify. I think that, "No machine is going to pay out two $100,000 jackpots in a row," is kind of an unintentionally misleading claim and one difficult to prove wrong. If it has never happened, then that's likely because it would simply be an extremely low probability event followed by another extremely low probability event, but I don't think that means that the probability is itself lower on the second spin of the two.
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What is a class 2 or class 3 machine?
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Something you should probably know before you make a video on slot machines. Vegas-style casinos, Indian casinos, and racinos all use different types of machines, and each class operates different than the others.
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Thanks, I'll look in to it. I'm mostly concerned with las vegas strip casinos. My channel is mostly about traveling to vegas, which resteraunts, which shows, etc. I want to make a video about slot machines, but I want it to be pretty accurate
Quote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
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If we're talking Las Vegas, then machines will not have the EXACT same RTP. A slot director can decide that certain denominations pay a rough percentage, such as 85% for penny machines, 87% for quarters, 94% for dollar denominations and so on. But each machine has a menu for various RTP programming, so one machine might have 94.2% while another has 94.8% for a slot director to choose.
Even if a slot director wanted to offer 97% payback on dollar denominations, some machines don't have that option — some have a maximum 95% payback, especially on machines that have licensed themes. Here's a video that shows how to choose your RTP on IGT machines: https://youtu.be/9EVvkztTRuk
In that video, he chooses the same RTP for every denomination he picked, but casinos can (and do) decide to provide better RTP for higher denominations.
The casino business today might differ from years ago, but I used to notice (based on video poker paytables) that some casinos would set their machines to the second-highest RTP settings while others just set all their machines to the lowest payback pct. (such as 6-5 JoB video poker).
Class II and Class III machines outside of Nevada are horses of an entirely different color.
Quote: Jimmy21
Thanks, I'll look in to it. I'm mostly concerned with las vegas strip casinos.
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Possibly of interest are the NGC regulations.
https://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=51
I'd start with Regulation 14 and the associated Technical Standards.
It would not surprise me if the Class III machines elsewhere were generally similar; my understanding is that the regulating authority for those games often accepts NGC compliant systems for use.
Class II is a whole different animal, but some of the anatomy is similar (meters, drop boxes, acceptors, etc).
Quote: smoothgrhQuote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
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If we're talking Las Vegas, then machines will not have the EXACT same RTP. A slot director can decide that certain denominations pay a rough percentage, such as 85% for penny machines, 87% for quarters, 94% for dollar denominations and so on. But each machine has a menu for various RTP programming, so one machine might have 94.2% while another has 94.8% for a slot director to choose.
Talking about vegas,
You used 94.2 and 94.8 as examples, is that the typical kind of variance in RTP we are talking about or would you ever see one bank of slots being 94.8 and one being 86% (of same denomination slots.) I know anything is possible, but if you walked in to Caesar's Palace or mgm grand right now....
Quote: Mission146
With Class III, however, I would be surprised if this would even be permitted, but DRich could clarify. I think that, "No machine is going to pay out two $100,000 jackpots in a row," is kind of an unintentionally misleading claim and one difficult to prove wrong. If it has never happened, then that's likely because it would simply be an extremely low probability event followed by another extremely low probability event, but I don't think that means that the probability is itself lower on the second spin of the two.
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That would never be allowed in Class III.
Quote: Jimmy21Quote: smoothgrhQuote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
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If we're talking Las Vegas, then machines will not have the EXACT same RTP. A slot director can decide that certain denominations pay a rough percentage, such as 85% for penny machines, 87% for quarters, 94% for dollar denominations and so on. But each machine has a menu for various RTP programming, so one machine might have 94.2% while another has 94.8% for a slot director to choose.
Talking about vegas,
You used 94.2 and 94.8 as examples, is that the typical kind of variance in RTP we are talking about or would you ever see one bank of slots being 94.8 and one being 86% (of same denomination slots.) I know anything is possible, but if you walked in to Caesar's Palace or mgm grand right now....
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Very possible but unlikely.
Quote: DRichQuote: Jimmy21Quote: smoothgrhQuote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
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If we're talking Las Vegas, then machines will not have the EXACT same RTP. A slot director can decide that certain denominations pay a rough percentage, such as 85% for penny machines, 87% for quarters, 94% for dollar denominations and so on. But each machine has a menu for various RTP programming, so one machine might have 94.2% while another has 94.8% for a slot director to choose.
Talking about vegas,
You used 94.2 and 94.8 as examples, is that the typical kind of variance in RTP we are talking about or would you ever see one bank of slots being 94.8 and one being 86% (of same denomination slots.) I know anything is possible, but if you walked in to Caesar's Palace or mgm grand right now....
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Very possible but unlikely.
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Any idea if there is any truth to the PAR being set higher near higher foot traffic areas? Like near the bathrooms?
Quote: Jimmy21Quote: DRichQuote: Jimmy21Quote: smoothgrhQuote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
link to original post
If we're talking Las Vegas, then machines will not have the EXACT same RTP. A slot director can decide that certain denominations pay a rough percentage, such as 85% for penny machines, 87% for quarters, 94% for dollar denominations and so on. But each machine has a menu for various RTP programming, so one machine might have 94.2% while another has 94.8% for a slot director to choose.
Talking about vegas,
You used 94.2 and 94.8 as examples, is that the typical kind of variance in RTP we are talking about or would you ever see one bank of slots being 94.8 and one being 86% (of same denomination slots.) I know anything is possible, but if you walked in to Caesar's Palace or mgm grand right now....
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Very possible but unlikely.
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Any idea if there is any truth to the PAR being set higher near higher foot traffic areas? Like near the bathrooms?
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About 20 years ago they used to do that. I haven't seen it done since then. I would guess that disappeared when coins went away.
Quote: DRich
About 20 years ago they used to do that. I haven't seen it done since then. I would guess that disappeared when coins went away.
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I think it's a combination of that and also a tendency to now put the most impressive (visual and sound) machines in the high-traffic areas, which are also often the themed games of licensed properties and tend to have the worst returns. At the time the winners were put in high-traffic areas, slot machines also didn't tend to look remarkably different from each other.
Quote: Jimmy21Specifically, I'm asking about the major Las Vegas strip casinos. In a given casino, I've heard two trains of thought. 1. That by denomination, every machine will have the same return to player. EG, all the quarter slots will have the same RTP as any other RTP inside the same casino. The only difference is variance. Or on the other hand 2. Certain machines will have an 85% RTP and the machine across the room could have a 97% RTP.
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Modern machines are programmed to support multiple RTPs. The operator gets to choose the RTP of any given machine. If you spin to page 8 of this industry brochure http://www.rgbgames.com/home/pdf/suppliers-product-catalogue/Aristocrat-2016-Catalogue.pdf you'll see that the game supports RTPs of 91,92 and 93 percent. And that the range of possible RTPs goes from 85% to 96%. The game on page 17 gives the operator 6 choices of RTP. Of course, you have no idea which one they picked.
There are some other fascinating hidden gems in other catalogs on their website; at least one gave me an audible moment of joy.
