'Beating Slots' Interview
Brandon James = Mission146
Quote: odiousgambitGood interview! I was impressed.
Thanks!
I use my Rewards card to track profit/loss. I was surprised when I saw how much I lost on slots during the pandemic from July to 12/31/2020! My Casino separates table and slot win/loss! Needless to say, I stopped playing slots! I still have a profit with my Craps winnings but it would be nice to have back the slot money I flushed down the slot toilet.
I was expecting "How to make Millions playing slots!", but at the end they pretty much confirmed that slots are a terrible bet. Good interview.
Quote: YoyomamaIt was good. I shoot Craps and only recently started to play the slots while waiting for a table. Covid made tables fewer with fewer allowed to play at those tables.
I use my Rewards card to track profit/loss. I was surprised when I saw how much I lost on slots during the pandemic from July to 12/31/2020! My Casino separates table and slot win/loss! Needless to say, I stopped playing slots! I still have a profit with my Craps winnings but it would be nice to have back the slot money I flushed down the slot toilet.
I was expecting "How to make Millions playing slots!", but at the end they pretty much confirmed that slots are a terrible bet. Good interview.
Thanks! That's a good observation. Live casino slots (especially low denom, but anything really) will drain you pretty quickly if you're not playing positive EV/vulturing. Many online casinos have most of their slots at 95%+, so I'd recommend that if you like trying slot games. You can find some really good bonuses also.
I just want to know if i'm going to be "angry" after watching this?Quote: Mission146Thanks! That's a good observation. Live casino slots (especially low denom, but anything really) will drain you pretty quickly if you're not playing positive EV/vulturing. Many online casinos have most of their slots at 95%+, so I'd recommend that if you like trying slot games. You can find some really good bonuses also.
Quote: AxelWolfI just want to know if i'm going to be "angry" after watching this?
You are already angry!
Except for those we named.
ROVING GANGS OF SLOT HUSTLERS, ARE YOU SERIOUS WITH THAT BS?Quote: teliot
But yes, I am under the impression that there is competition for certain slot/VP opportunities, and that there are paid syndicates that descend in certain situations. In fact, I'm quite certain that's the case and have multiple sources. But, as usual, I'm glad to be corrected.
at my local casino (biggest in the state), there's a group of 4 that seem to be there 10+ hrs/day, 7days/week.Quote: AxelWolfROVING GANGS OF SLOT HUSTLERS, ARE YOU SERIOUS WITH THAT BS?
i go play poker at 8am because of poker promos and leave around 6pm random days in a week, almost every week.
i see at least one of them at 8am and all of them at 6pm everytime.
How can they make a living for 4 of them, especially given the competition?
ie: me. Every couple of hours or so i leave the poker table for 15 min and check all the quick vulterable machines.
and there's at least 2 individuals working alone that are also there for hrs.
plus an elderly Asian woman that camps at THE prime spot of 2 banks of vulterable slots which are next to each other.
T.Elliot:
as for Must Hit progressives, forget about it.
people see $480 on a $500 Must Hit or slightly above $9800 on a $10k Must Hit and they play it for hrs. (Their wife/husband brings them food/water/money once in a while.)
ie: They take it early.
although i havent seen that lately since the restriction of no food in the casino because Covid.
Quote: 100xOddsat my local casino (biggest in the state), there's a group of 4 that seem to be there 10+ hrs/day, 7days/week.
i go play poker at 8am because of poker promos and leave around 6pm random days in a week, almost every week.
i see at least one of them at 8am and all of them at 6pm everytime.
How can they make a living for 4 of them, especially given the competition?
ie: me. Every couple of hours or so i leave the poker table for 15 min and check all the quick vulterable machines.
and there's at least 2 individuals working alone that are also there for hrs.
plus an elderly Asian woman that camps at THE prime spot of 2 vulterable banks, which are next to each other.
as for Must Hit progressives, forget about it.
people see $480 on a $500 Must Hit or slightly above $9800 on a $10k Must Hit and they play it for hrs. (Their wife/husband brings them food/water/money once in a while.)
ie: They take it early.
although i havent seen that lately since the restriction of no food in the casino because Covid.
In Atlantic City the competition for the must hits is so bad the teams take the machines at 9600. And now I have even seen them taking it closer to 9500 in order to beat out the other teams
And these are teams. They sit together and watch the machine when someone has to leave, taking over for them.
the word syndicates also sounds as if its something of a criminal nature.
I'm confused, Are they syndicats or roving gangs?
OMG, theres both syndicates and roving gangs descending on the casinos.
Teliot, I just heard from one of your future sources who even he himself said he makes more money writing about this stuff than he does playing. No disrespect to Mission, I like him, he is a very intelligent individual and a fun guy to hang out with.
I have it on good authority that your judgment regarding AP sources is checkered at best.
So it's not the facts that you are disputing, it's the language. Got it.Quote: AxelWolfThere are obviously teams that do this stuff, but to say "roving gangs" sounds ominous and it is fear mongering.
the word syndicates also sounds as if its something of a criminal nature.
I'm confused, Are they syndicats or roving gangs?
OMG, theres both syndicates and roving gangs descending on the casinos.
Teliot, I just heard from one of your future sources who even he himself said he makes more money writing about this stuff than he does playing. No disrespect to Mission, I like him, he is a very intelligent individual and a fun guy to hang out with.
I have it on good authority that your judgment regarding AP sources is checkered at best.
Quote: teliotSo it's not the facts that you are disputing, it's the language. Got it.
I think the language you used belies the facts.
It's common enough. That's why the Mafia doesn't call themselves a syndicate, they call themselves a family.
Why don't you say families descend on slot machines?
Because you are trying to make the language create distinctions that belie the facts
I don't see these "gangs" as being anymore than teams often comprised of family members and not a syndicate
Quote: AxelWolfI just want to know if i'm going to be "angry" after watching this?
I don't think you will.
Quote: AxelWolfROVING GANGS OF SLOT HUSTLERS, ARE YOU SERIOUS WITH THAT BS?
You'll note that I disagreed with this. Eliot is a table games specialist; it's a fair question. Might have thought it was the same concept as table games teams.
In terms of machines, sometimes teams will work together on linked progressives, as you know. But, there aren't roving teams doing vulture plays.
"I have been told that, in days past, there existed an “us vs. them” mentality among advantage players, leading them to cooperate with each other, because they perceived the casinos as a common enemy. In such a climate, rivals would be easy to deal with, because they would almost certainly be open to cooperation and sharing. I can say that this is not the case anymore. There is no honor or agreement to be had among rivals anymore, and the competition can be quite fierce. Each team usually plays according to its own rules and interests; there are no industry standards for how to deal with other advantage players. Some rivalries are so bitter that they involve players ratting each other out to surveillance or the pit.... This trend has resulted in the formation of larger, more organized teams than in times past. Some would say it is a natural evolution of the trade. A larger team can more effectively shut out smaller teams or individual players, by having more people to occupy space in casinos, and more rapidly scout out games for obliteration. A larger team has a more extensive network to draw on for talent and information, and can more easily stay one step ahead of the competition ... If this section has made the advantage play industry seem unfriendly, adversarial, and unpleasant, then I have been successful in conveying how things work. It most definitely is unfriendly, adversarial, and unpleasant, at least between rivals. "
To me, this sounds like gangs. This is not my only source. Do you recall "Stalker" and "LVHCM"? How about Russo? How about what RXGamble says about your fellow APs? What about the Hong Kong horse racing syndicate? Do you know about loss rebate syndicates? Of course, I also have my personal experiences as well as information from working within the casino industry about the nature and organization of some of these gangs and syndicates.
Calling "BS" on what I said about gangs and syndicates casts doubt on my credibility that is unfounded. The organized nature of team play and the territorial and aggressive nature of these teams towards each other is the very definition of gang activity.
Quote: GialmereI thought "crew" was the preferred term these days (although I doubt that Merriam-Webster is keeping track).
Crew is good because when I have to eliminate one of my team members I am technically getting a crewcut
"I have been in Vegas since 2016 as a full-time gambler. The 'Asian syndicate' that we locally call "The Chinese Army" dominates the casinos. They comb through the casinos 24/7 looking for any advantage they can find. Since 2020 more Asians have come here looking for anything they can get, they sit around the casino just waiting for anyone to play the machines and race over to check them once a machine is vacated. Some casinos are very vigilant about machine hustlers aka 'Bonus Chasers' and kick-out/trespass such persons quickly, whereas other casinos are very tolerant of such persons. Most High limit rooms have attendants who are vigilant as to such persons and practices and will ask such a person to leave, and high limit room players are also very sensitive to persons who just come in to check machines and report such persons quickly."
"Here in Vegas, the High Limit room attendants are vigilant about persons who come in and check machines for any advantage play and will ask such person to leave if not trespass them on the spot. Some casinos are also very sensitive to machine hustlers and know how to spot them, and will have such persons trespassed/arrested by metro. The Asian Syndicate dominates Las Vegas and many of the table gaming changes that have occurred in the last year are because of them. The tourist do see the high number of Asians lurking in the casinos, checking machines, and wandering about and not gambling...and this has been an issue of concern for the casinos."
Quote: teliotI just saw the following two comments posted to the video:
"I have been in Vegas since 2016 as a full-time gambler. The 'Asian syndicate' that we locally call "The Chinese Army" dominates the casinos. They comb through the casinos 24/7 looking for any advantage they can find. Since 2020 more Asians have come here looking for anything they can get, they sit around the casino just waiting for anyone to play the machines and race over to check them once a machine is vacated. Some casinos are very vigilant about machine hustlers aka 'Bonus Chasers' and kick-out/trespass such persons quickly, whereas other casinos are very tolerant of such persons. Most High limit rooms have attendants who are vigilant as to such persons and practices and will ask such a person to leave, and high limit room players are also very sensitive to persons who just come in to check machines and report such persons quickly."
"Here in Vegas, the High Limit room attendants are vigilant about persons who come in and check machines for any advantage play and will ask such person to leave if not trespass them on the spot. Some casinos are also very sensitive to machine hustlers and know how to spot them, and will have such persons trespassed/arrested by metro. The Asian Syndicate dominates Las Vegas and many of the table gaming changes that have occurred in the last year are because of them. The tourist do see the high number of Asians lurking in the casinos, checking machines, and wandering about and not gambling...and this has been an issue of concern for the casinos."
I stopped reading when they said some places spot these hustlers and call in metro for arrests.
Seriously? Arrested for looking? At the bubble positions on Ocean Magic?
Can't take that seriously!
Quote: darkozI stopped reading when they said some places spot these hustlers and call in metro for arrests.
Seriously? Arrested for looking? At the bubble positions on Ocean Magic?
Can't take that seriously!
There used to be a bank of UltX near the Toga bar at Caesars AC. Sometimes I would sit down for a drink and see how many vultures I could count in an hour.
They stick out like sore thumbs with how quickly they can check each denomination, some outstanding muscle memory on those people, switching between 10 games in 0.5 seconds.
I imagine 99% of casino employees don’t differentiate that behavior from the screen rubbing ploppies.
They certainly aren’t busting kneecaps over it.
Quote: AxelWolfOn a selfish personal level I wish they would just stop making games people can Vulture. It's a gateway into other AP and it just causes problems for the most part. It always has and it always will.
The games tend to be well-liked and the amount of money that hustlers are vulturing is negligible compared to a great many other AP things going on. My position is that anyone who is just checking machines (and going out of the way not to bother anyone else) should be left completely alone. You could perhaps make some exceptions for HL room, I guess. For the most part, unless their presence is negatively impacting other guests, I think we should be left alone and most casinos outside of Vegas (in my experience and from what I have heard) do leave us alone.
One casino even knows exactly what I'm doing and security has even asked, "Find anything decent today?" It's a local place mostly and they know I'll usually get a coffee from the cocktail waitress (and tip) and that I don't bother other guests. I usually won't even check a machine if the one beside it is occupied.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the slot directors don't know they are putting in variable state machines. If they're going to have those types of machines there, then they should tolerate the vultures who don't bother anyone. First of all, we barely take anything from them compared to many other people and plays. Secondly, many vultures have, "Holes," and will just give the money right back (and then some) on something else. Finally, if they think hustler vultures are such a HUGE issue, then they could just not have those machines.
yup, like counting baccarat side bets in the high limit room.Quote: unJonThis is a great thread. But it’s misnamed. Slots aren’t beatable, only side games.
just sit around till you have a good count then jump in.
ignore the dagger eyes from the players there for ruining their mojo.
make mint
:p
Im sure they do know there are guys out their doing this, but do they know there are these so called "ROVING GANGS OF ASIANS AND SUPER SYNDICATES" making 100's of millions?Quote: Mission146The games tend to be well-liked and the amount of money that hustlers are vulturing is negligible compared to a great many other AP things going on. My position is that anyone who is just checking machines (and going out of the way not to bother anyone else) should be left completely alone. You could perhaps make some exceptions for HL room, I guess. For the most part, unless their presence is negatively impacting other guests, I think we should be left alone and most casinos outside of Vegas (in my experience and from what I have heard) do leave us alone.
One casino even knows exactly what I'm doing and security has even asked, "Find anything decent today?" It's a local place mostly and they know I'll usually get a coffee from the cocktail waitress (and tip) and that I don't bother other guests. I usually won't even check a machine if the one beside it is occupied.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the slot directors don't know they are putting in variable state machines. If they're going to have those types of machines there, then they should tolerate the vultures who don't bother anyone. First of all, we barely take anything from them compared to many other people and plays. Secondly, many vultures have, "Holes," and will just give the money right back (and then some) on something else. Finally, if they think hustler vultures are such a HUGE issue, then they could just not have those machines.
My point is... TEliot wants to make it sound more ominous, organized and threatening than it actually is.
Quote: AxelWolfIm sure they do know there are guys out their doing this, but do they know there are these so called "ROVING GANGS OF ASIANS AND SUPER SYNDICATES" making 100's of millions?
My point is... TEliot wants to make it sound more ominous, organized and threatening than it actually is.
It's also important to note that the profit for the Casinos remain unchanged.
A person who leaves behind a vulture opportunity isn't getting the money because they left.
Whoever sits down deserves the opportunity.
The opportunity (read: cash) goes to the player regardless of whether they intentionally vulture or not.
Most vulturable slots are so obviously vulturable that you wind up with lots of people doing it. It doesn't take a player long to figure out it's wiser to wait for someone else to provide an opportunity.
I have seen all races and nationalities and ages including old ladies scanning through the denoms.
Quote: Mission146
I find it extremely difficult to believe that the slot directors don't know they are putting in variable state machines. If they're going to have those types of machines there, then they should tolerate the vultures who don't bother anyone. First of all, we barely take anything from them compared to many other people and plays. Secondly, many vultures have, "Holes," and will just give the money right back (and then some) on something else. Finally, if they think hustler vultures are such a HUGE issue, then they could just not have those machines.
You give the majority of Slot Directors way too much credit. You would be surprised by how little slot directors know about the games and features. Mostly they just know which areas of the floor are doing well and which ones aren't.
I don't think the profits of the casinos remain unchanged. A smart AP will pocket his profits and not give them back to the casino. Poppies will normally give it all back. HOWEVER, I do think it's negglibale and not worth the effort, time and potential problems for them to worry about . Obviously they should boot out people who look bumish/cracky , cause trouble, stock machines with players playing, engage in tactics run people off machines, or simply creep their customers out.Quote: darkozIt's also important to note that the profit for the Casinos remain unchanged.
A person who leaves behind a vulture opportunity isn't getting the money because they left.
Whoever sits down deserves the opportunity.
The opportunity (read: cash) goes to the player regardless of whether they intentionally vulture or not.
Most vulturable slots are so obviously vulturable that you wind up with lots of people doing it. It doesn't take a player long to figure out it's wiser to wait for someone else to provide an opportunity.
I have seen all races and nationalities and ages including old ladies scanning through the denoms.
I doubt I would even let you in the door😉
Quote: AxelWolfI don't think the profits of the casinos remain unchanged. A smart AP will pocket his profits and not give them back to the casino. Poppies will normally give it all back. HOWEVER, I do think it's negglibale and not worth the effort, time and potential problems for them to worry about . Obviously they should boot out people who look bumish/cracky , cause trouble, stock machines with players playing, engage in tactics run people off machines, or simply creep their customers out.
I doubt I would even let you in the door😉
You are implying that an AP's money is different from a ploppie.
Ploppie sits and loses $200
AP vultures and wins back $50 and leaves Casino
New ploppie returns and loses $200
Profit to Casino = 200 + 200 - 50 = $350.
Versus
Ploppie sits and loses $200
Ploppie wins back $50 (after remaining seated during vulture move.
Ploppie remains seated and loses $200 more
Profit to Casino remains the same.
Doesn't matter whose pocket the vulturable moment enriched
Quote: darkozYou are implying that an AP's money is different from a ploppie.
Ploppie sits and loses $200
AP vultures and wins back $50 and leaves Casino
New ploppie returns and loses $200
Profit to Casino = 200 + 200 - 50 = $350.
Versus
Ploppie sits and loses $200
Ploppie wins back $50 (after remaining seated during vulture move.
Ploppie remains seated and loses $200 more
Profit to Casino remains the same.
Doesn't matter whose pocket the vulturable moment enriched
Axel is right. Think about ploppies that have stop losses. And they play until they lose $300.
FYI for a second i forgot who i was addressing and the, "I doubt I would even let you in the door😉" was meant for Mission.Quote: darkozYou are implying that an AP's money is different from a ploppie.
Ploppie sits and loses $200
AP vultures and wins back $50 and leaves Casino
New ploppie returns and loses $200
Profit to Casino = 200 + 200 - 50 = $350.
Versus
Ploppie sits and loses $200
Ploppie wins back $50 (after remaining seated during vulture move.
Ploppie remains seated and loses $200 more
Profit to Casino remains the same.
Doesn't matter whose pocket the vulturable moment enriched
I will talk about how vulturing AP's affect the casinos bottom line later.
Quote: unJonAxel is right. Think about ploppies that have stop losses. And they play until they lose $300.
That's precisely why Axel is wrong.
Example 1:
Ploppie A has $300 stop loss. Loses $300 leaving vulturable opportunity behind.
Ploppie B sits down and wins the $50. Then proceeds to lose it back. The vulturable machine has moved $50 closer to it's next vulturable position.
Example 2:
Ploppie A has $300 stop loss and leaves behind vulturable opportunity.
AP comes along and wins $50.
Ploppie B still comes along and loses $50 of his own money and the machine is still $50 closer to it's next vulturable opportunity. Same coin-in, same profit. (Of course different player who wins but bottom line to Casino remains the same)
The fact AP left with $50 is offset by the Ploppie B who plays after him.
Let's put it another way. After a month of play, the profit recorded by the vulturable machine (amount won - RTP) will be identical regardless of whether an AP, ploppie or other combination played the vulturable game
Quote: darkozIt's also important to note that the profit for the Casinos remain unchanged.
I understand your point, but the REALITY of the situation is different. Ploppy will always be playing a lower EV game since vultures will always leave machine in lowest EV state. He will last less time, and thus will less likely ‘enjoy’ the game, and be less likely to play it in the future. So that machine gets less play. So the profit for that casino goes down.
Another simple concept is this..... most players will keep recycling money through the machines until all their ‘budget’ is gone. Any money the ploppy ‘gives’ to the AP tends to be money the casino will never see again.
That all being said, I think that if those machines are in the casino, then there is nothing wrong with vultures. (Like me!)
Axel is never wong.Quote: darkozThat's precisely why Axel is wrong.
Example 1:
Ploppie A has $300 stop loss. Loses $300 leaving vulturable opportunity behind.
Ploppie B sits down and wins the $50. Then proceeds to lose it back. The vulturable machine has moved $50 closer to it's next vulturable position.
Example 2:
Ploppie A has $300 stop loss and leaves behind vulturable opportunity.
AP comes along and wins $50.
Ploppie B still comes along and loses $50 of his own money and the machine is still $50 closer to it's next vulturable opportunity. Same coin-in, same profit. (Of course different player who wins but bottom line to Casino remains the same)
The fact AP left with $50 is offset by the Ploppie B who plays after him.
Let's put it another way. After a month of play, the profit recorded by the vulturable machine (amount won - RTP) will be identical regardless of whether an AP, ploppie or other combination played the vulturable game
Let me ask you a question before we dive into this. Do vultures who pocket their profits add to the casinos bottom line?
Quote: AxelWolfAxel is never wong.
Let me ask you a question before we dive into this. Do vultures who pocket their profits add to the casinos bottom line?
They don't add nor take away. The machines are performing as expected and obtaining the same profits
Quote: SOOPOOI understand your point, but the REALITY of the situation is different. Ploppy will always be playing a lower EV game since vultures will always leave machine in lowest EV state. He will last less time, and thus will less likely ‘enjoy’ the game, and be less likely to play it in the future. So that machine gets less play. So the profit for that casino goes down.
Another simple concept is this..... most players will keep recycling money through the machines until all their ‘budget’ is gone. Any money the ploppy ‘gives’ to the AP tends to be money the casino will never see again.
That all being said, I think that if those machines are in the casino, then there is nothing wrong with vultures. (Like me!)
So it's your opinion that skillful poker players cause losses to the casino by scaring off less skillful players because they lose more often and don't play anymore?
Quote: darkozThey don't add nor take away. The machines are performing as expected and obtaining the same profits
Here’s a hypothetical scenario....
Two casinos. Both have only must hit progressives, in equal numbers, equal RTP, and equal patronage.
One casino is rampant with vultures, and the other only serves ploppies.
Which casino is more profitable?
Quote: gamerfreakHere’s a hypothetical scenario....
Two casinos. Both have only must hit progressives, in equal numbers, equal RTP, and equal patronage.
One casino is rampant with vultures, and the other only serves ploppies.
Which casino is more profitable?
Okay let's look at that.
Let's take a $10,000 Must-hit.
First of all your hypothetical is flawed because the casino rampant with vultures would leave if there were no ploppies. The entire concept of vulturing is that ploppies do abound. If you are asking what happens when the Casino has no ploppies the answer is the vultures leave
As for the Casino with nothing but ploppies, the Ploppies keep playing until the machine is hits just like normal. Several ploppies lose and then leave the opportunity for the next ploppie which can go on for weeks
Then the lucky ploppie who wins ten grand almost certainly does not keep playing but having won such a major Jackpot, leaves in celebration. Even if they kept playing they weren't going to play back ten gees.
So, Casino with just ploppies is as profitable as one with a combination of ploppies and vultures.
And Casino with just vultures doesn't exist. The vultures left the building
Quote: darkozOkay let's look at that.
Let's take a $10,000 Must-hit.
First of all your hypothetical is flawed because the casino rampant with vultures would leave if there were no ploppies. The entire concept of vulturing is that ploppies do abound. If you are asking what happens when the Casino has no ploppies the answer is the vultures leave
As for the Casino with nothing but ploppies, the Ploppies keep playing until the machine is hits just like normal. Several ploppies lose and then leave the opportunity for the next ploppie which can go on for weeks
Then the lucky ploppie who wins ten grand almost certainly does not keep playing but having won such a major Jackpot, leaves in celebration. Even if they kept playing they weren't going to play back ten gees.
So, Casino with just ploppies is as profitable as one with a combination of ploppies and vultures.
And Casino with just vultures doesn't exist. The vultures left the building
I didn’t mean a casino with ONLY vulture.
Casino A has vultures, Casino B has zero vultures. All else is equal.
Quote: gamerfreakI didn’t mean a casino with ONLY vulture.
Casino A has vultures, Casino B has zero vultures. All else is equal.
Casino A.
Ploppies add to $10,000 Must-hit progressive.
Vulture wins $10,000 Jackpot and leaves.
Casino B.
Ploppies add to $10,000 Must-hit progressive.
Ploppie wins $10,000 and leaves.
How is Casino bottom lines any different?
In fact let's go one step further.
Ploppie wins $10,000. He leaves and doesn't come back because he only gambles every few months.
Vulture wins $10,000 Jackpot, remains in Casino for next opportunity. When it comes, variance causes him to lose $15,000 trying to win the $10,000.
Which player was more valuable to the casino?
Quote: darkozCasino A.
Ploppies add to $10,000 Must-hit progressive.
Vulture wins $10,000 Jackpot and leaves.
Casino B.
Ploppies add to $10,000 Must-hit progressive.
Ploppie wins $10,000 and leaves.
How is Casino bottom lines any different?
I really think your casino B scenario is flawed.
Ploppies give a large percentage of jackpot winnings back to the casino.
Vultures give 0% back.
Quote: gamerfreakI really think your casino B scenario is flawed.
Ploppies give a large percentage of jackpot winnings back to the casino.
Vultures give 0% back.
Then it's your belief that vultures never lose?
When there are ultimate X multipliers every hand is a winner?
Quote: darkozThen it's your belief that vultures never lose?
When there are ultimate X multipliers every hand is a winner?
I realize that there is a cost to collecting bonuses and must hit progressives.
I am saying that among jackpot winners, ploppies will keep playing and give a large amount back to the casino, while vultures will give back virtually none.
