standbymyman
standbymyman
Joined: Feb 13, 2015
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December 5th, 2019 at 8:57:58 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

If the machine loses nothing then the casino loses nothing. You simply cant have it both ways.

Game designers factor in expected profit. If the game is delivering on expected profit as expected, who wins and who loses is inconsequential AND MORE SPECIFICALLY games that are vulturable are specifically designed that way.

If casinos deny patrons the ability to vulture a game designed to be vulturable, then that is what Hurts the casino bottom line imo.

If casinos dont want people to use the information purposefully given to them by game designers then they should not carry the machines. If they dont want Must Hits or Ultimate X or whatever that can be entered at an advantageous time then remove them. Otherwise they are implicitly stating that it is worthwhile to examine, digest and utilize that information

By your argument, casinos should care who wins or loses at table poker. The casino loses future business when poor players lose to poker pros and decide not to play anymore.







You just refuse to understand. AP keeps the jackpot, ploppy takes the newfound wealth and is able to expand his play so lots of other machines take in future profit from that play. Sounds like you are a vulture that is singing your silly song to the casino execs.
darkoz
darkoz
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December 5th, 2019 at 9:53:41 AM permalink
Quote: standbymyman

You just refuse to understand. AP keeps the jackpot, ploppy takes the newfound wealth and is able to expand his play so lots of other machines take in future profit from that play. Sounds like you are a vulture that is singing your silly song to the casino execs.



I can argue that you dont understand either.

The casino should not be examining who in particular is winning (whether they actually do or not is not my point. casinos often act stupid).

The bottom line is simply not affected when a slot machine takes in the profit it is supposed too regardless of whether a vulture won.

Your argument is a hypothetical. There is no GUARANTEE that a winning ploppie will return and gamble back his winnings. some plopplies in fact make only casual visits to the casino, once a year, perhaps once a decade.

Many times people are ploppies precisely because they dont individually go often to the casino (and dont notice the obvious plays as a result). So there is no guarantee a casino will see any return of money won by ploppies

The only quantifiable, absolute here is that if the slot machine is making its expected profit, then the casino is not losing money.

Now I am not arguing that casinos dont do stupid thungs. sure they do.. But kicking out people who onky play when they choose to play (because of an advantage) and it doesn't affect the slot machines profit in any way os is stupid in my book)

EDIT: I should also point out that in the only logical state to regulate this type of thing, New Jersey, it would actually be illegal to trespass a person simply because they only gambled a vulturable game when advantageous.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 5th, 2019 at 10:54:25 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I can argue that you dont understand either.

The casino should not be examining who in particular is winning (whether they actually do or not is not my point. casinos often act stupid).

The bottom line is simply not affected when a slot machine takes in the profit it is supposed too regardless of whether a vulture won.

Your argument is a hypothetical. There is no GUARANTEE that a winning ploppie will return and gamble back his winnings. some plopplies in fact make only casual visits to the casino, once a year, perhaps once a decade.

Many times people are ploppies precisely because they dont individually go often to the casino (and dont notice the obvious plays as a result). So there is no guarantee a casino will see any return of money won by ploppies

The only quantifiable, absolute here is that if the slot machine is making its expected profit, then the casino is not losing money.

Now I am not arguing that casinos dont do stupid thungs. sure they do.. But kicking out people who onky play when they choose to play (because of an advantage) and it doesn't affect the slot machines profit in any way os is stupid in my book)

EDIT: I should also point out that in the only logical state to regulate this type of thing, New Jersey, it would actually be illegal to trespass a person simply because they only gambled a vulturable game when advantageous.

And that's how it should be everywhere, but it's not.

You are correct, there's no guarantee all ploppies will give all the money back, however, it's almost certain the the ploppies will give back more than the the AP's.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
darkoz
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December 5th, 2019 at 11:13:41 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

And that's how it should be everywhere, but it's not.

You are correct, there's no guarantee all ploppies will give all the money back, however, it's almost certain the the ploppies will give back more than the the AP's.



I agree with you there.

there are plenty of similar things in other markets.

Should supermarkets ban people who take advantage only of shopping specials because they will make more profit from people who shop when specials are not available?

Should fast food restaurants ban people who only use free hamburger coupons?

I find it really disingenuous of the casinos to feel they are somehow entitled to pick and choose from their clientele pertaining to things that they offer (like vulturable games)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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December 5th, 2019 at 2:33:40 PM permalink
I've posted before about Radio Shacks marketing tactic:: give away a free flashlight and sell los of batteries then six months later give away batteries and sell lots of flashlights. Those brave souls who only took the freebies were a cost of doing business. Casinos offer a mix of games and hope to get a mix of customers. Some bottom feeding or cream skimming will always be a part of the picture.
EVBandit
EVBandit
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December 5th, 2019 at 10:16:58 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I dont see why kicking out paying customers is smart.

Vultures are not even taking any money from the casino as the games are being played perfectly to the rules.

Any casino that demands someone play a slot only when they want the person to play isnt very smart to me.

Perhaps locking up a machine with no play I can understand. The casino has a taken seat that they could fill with a paying customer.

But standing around waiting to play isnt anything that should get anyone kicked out imo



Every casino is different. Camping falls under the rubric of ďloiteringĒ.

If the casino can kick you out for loitering, it can kick you out for camping, vulturing, scavenging, etc.

The worse was when just about every homeless person knew about Golden Egypt and started camping and vulturing in the casino. The casino was non-plusssed to see this situation.

Some vultures ARE hostile as they stand directly behind the ploppy and some vultures pressure Ploppies to give up machines like Scarabs at spin 8 or 9 will numerous cells on the screen.

Hereís the rule: You need to know what the rules are at the casino you are playing; ignorance is not a defense.
EVBandit
EVBandit
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December 5th, 2019 at 10:49:59 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

In response to Axel's posts.

If vultures smell bad or are just hobos off the subway in filthy rags, (I guess they panhandled for enough to wager but never mind that logic) then that is the reason the casinos kicked the players out.

But are you telling me men in regular clothes who VULTURE (there I used the negative word) get kicked out for waiting when to play? again, to me that is a stupid move on a casino's part.

I dont know what you mean by "giving it all back" On vulture plays the entire community is technically involved in the play. The community "gives it back" Why should any one particular player have return of their money be a prerequisite for being allowed in the casino. AGAIN, with Vulturing, the casino LOSES NOTHING. The machines return is unaffected

The above paragraph also applies to ploppies who you say Vultures take the money from their pockets. I completely disagree. First off, the casino is taking the money from their pockets (even you state the. casinos goal is everyone gives anything they win back). With vulturing plays, this usually happens when the player approaches a positive state play and either thru lack of funds or understanding leaves. How would a vulture change the outcome there? If another ploppie who doesn't understand the game either sits down and plays and wins that makes him taking the other guys money? I simply disagree with yourn thinking and the casinos in vulture aspects.

As for terminology, I agree about negative versus positive aspects but you (collectively us that is) will never win because ANYTHING can become a negative even when it sounds positive and vice versa.

I am HIV NEGATIVE. (guess what, thats a positive statement)

I am sexually Care free (negative use of word free)

I am sexually Disease free (positive use of word free)

That dance move is da Bomb (positive use of word Bomb)

That movie is a Bomb (negative use of word bomb)

The list could go on for pages lol.

Finally to the negative/positive aspect, in Japan they dont have vultures as an indigenous animal so they dont call slot (Pachinko actually) players Vultures. Instead they call them Hyenas, a vulture like animal that is indigenous so its just human nature to make this type of comparison



Itís clear to me you obviously havenít been around the block long enough (and this is my opinion of you!). You havenít seen casinos pound back after getting pounded by vultures. You havenít seen the number of complaints by Ploppies. You are just ignorant or clueless (again, this is my opinion of you based on your posts in this thread).

I am only stating facts. Iíve seen casino de-content as in remove beatable bonus games. Iíve seen casinos put in lower pay table slots as a result of vultures.

Iíve seen bonus hustlers and vultures who were shocked at their first lifetime expulsion. They just never saw it coming. I saw it coming because the security told me about it. I just mind my own business unless they cheat the casino or cheat customers. If I catch you cheating the casino or scamming or being hostile to customers, I will not hesitate reporting you to security. Keep in mind, you are being filmed and your presence in the casino means you gave consent to being filmed.

My friend has 6 casinos within a one-hour drive from him and the casinos let the scavengers remain and play SO LONG as they gamble a bit, e.g. give some of their winnings back. All the vultures were 86íed. One vulture got 86íed at one casino, then another, then another until all 6 casinos did not want him. He used to spend 10 to 14 hours a day from Wed to Sun plus Holidays and bragged about how much money he made, he just bought a new car with cash from winnings, he was eating for free, etc. It took 9 months for him to lose everything. He will never make another penny for the rest of his life from those 6 casinos.

The number one reason this vulture was 86íed was standing too close to Ploppies and considered to be hostile per the casino(s) and the number two reason was him ďstealingĒ plays from other scavengers, e.g. jumping in front off or cutting another scavenger off. He did to my friend in the first three casinos and my friend complained and so did other hustlers. No one misses him.

If you vulture, just donít be hostile to the Ploppies that are playing. And donít camp out so fights break out amongst the scavengers because that p*ssed off security and surveillance. These are not your machines and most casinos have a rule that guests cannot block machines.

I was around during the golden age of bonus machines in early 2000ís and read on message boards about some vulture in Las Vegas who was making $20,000 a week and did not want competition so fights would break out, and when fights with knives started ... thatís when casinos started adopting the No Camping Rule.

I tell every scavenger in my network: go to a casino, make your money and donít do anything to get kicked out.
EVBandit
EVBandit
Joined: Nov 8, 2019
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December 5th, 2019 at 10:57:48 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I can argue that you dont understand either.

The casino should not be examining who in particular is winning (whether they actually do or not is not my point. casinos often act stupid).

The bottom line is simply not affected when a slot machine takes in the profit it is supposed too regardless of whether a vulture won.

Your argument is a hypothetical. There is no GUARANTEE that a winning ploppie will return and gamble back his winnings. some plopplies in fact make only casual visits to the casino, once a year, perhaps once a decade.

Many times people are ploppies precisely because they dont individually go often to the casino (and dont notice the obvious plays as a result). So there is no guarantee a casino will see any return of money won by ploppies

The only quantifiable, absolute here is that if the slot machine is making its expected profit, then the casino is not losing money.

Now I am not arguing that casinos dont do stupid thungs. sure they do.. But kicking out people who onky play when they choose to play (because of an advantage) and it doesn't affect the slot machines profit in any way os is stupid in my book)

EDIT: I should also point out that in the only logical state to regulate this type of thing, New Jersey, it would actually be illegal to trespass a person simply because they only gambled a vulturable game when advantageous.



Opinions are not facts.

You love arguing opinions.

Hereís a simple fact: I was taught a casino will welcome my business SO LONG as I gamble in good faith, e.g. that I give the casinoís a fair chance at my bankroll.

Vultures (as defined in original post) are not gambling, much less gambling in good faith.

Every business I am aware off in the US has the right to refuse service to anyone and that includes casinos.

Btw, I got my start in Atlantic City in 1995 where Jazbo was based; I played a lot of Piggy Bankiní and beatable bimodal video poker. So I know AC regulations. Even AC casinoís had the right to kick certain people out. And there were fights, especially over Piggy Bankiní in $1 denominations.
EVBandit
EVBandit
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December 5th, 2019 at 11:29:16 PM permalink
Hereís the problem with Vultures.

At one casino, it just put in a bank of Wild Pirates and in multi denominations.

One guy decides to camp out all day right behind the players. As soon as a ploppy gets up, he checks every game of the first denomination and then every game of the second denominations. He plays the +EV and leaves the bad ones and goes back to his seat. At lunchtime, his partner takes his place and this goes on all day and night.

The other bonus hustlers want to check for plays too.

Fights break out. Security gets involved and a few players were given suspensions as in stay away from the casino for a while. After a few suspensions, then itís the ban hammer and congrats you just won a lifetime ban.

I have had vultures physically shove me off a machine. I get yelled at constantly. I have been threaten and sometimes threaten with physical harm, etc.

The problem is these new folks never learned the No Camping rule. So why do some people get to lock up the best machines. The answer is they canít. Itís not their machines.

As you can see the Vultures HATE competition and it gets worse when teams are involved.

In contrast at another casino, the bonus hustlers agree not to camp and everyone walks around so everyone has a chance to make money. There is no fighting. We have a gentlemenís agreement that first one there gets it. You might see some will vulture a play and then move on, but no one stays or locks up a bank of machines all night. We make our money and then call it a night and all is good.

Every casino is different. All I can say is be grateful the casinoís havenít actively enforce the No Camping Rule. Itís a rule dating back to 2001 or so. This rule falls under the No Loitering rule.
darkoz
darkoz
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December 6th, 2019 at 4:25:22 AM permalink
Its funny how everyone arguing vulturing gets you kicked out in the last 4 or so posts says something like,

"then fistfights broke out"

"then knives were flashed"

"then I was shoved off the machine"

Duh! I never said people who brandish knives, start fistfights and shove people off machines were being wrongfully evicted.

And obviously THATS WHY THEY WERE KICKED OUT.

Vultures who simply check a machine to see where the state of the game is by cycling thru denominations and either sit a few feet away or walk around in a circuit looking for these machine opportunities is what I am defending.

Aggressive violence regardless of the reason (vulturing or whatever) is not the issue here
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee

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