What information is contained in the gaming voucher?
Player B puts the $700 voucher in another slot machine, played some, cashout a $500 voucher, give to to player C.
Player C puts the $500 voucher along with his $200 cash in another slot machine, redeemed his $300 freeplay, played some, cashed out a $1800 voucher, give it to player D.
Player D…
After transfering the voucher multiple hands to person Z, it becomes a $7000 voucher.
Finally, person Z goes to the cashier to cashout the $7000 voucher. What information is stored in the voucher at this point?
Does it contain all the previous actions done by multiple players? Or is it the same as cash that only has a monoteary value?
Quote: DRichThe voucher has no other information other than what is printed on it. Yes, there is a history in the database that could be used for forensic analysis.
Would randomly running it thru a machine without playing kill any trail?
Quote: billryanWould randomly running it thru a machine without playing kill any trail?
Casinos are probably required to retain all data they incur for so many years after they get it so probably not and saving data is so cheap these days it’s more profitable to save said data forever after it’s been created to mine the data and sell the data
I have degrees in this stuff if you don’t trust my word btw
Putting a $20 bill into the slot prior to cashing out eliminated the flag
As Heatmap points out they use keys or what i call flags. That tracks the voucher thru the iterations IF...
Big if...
If they think to include a copy flag or copy key command. If the new voucher configuration does not copy the pertinent info then the trail is lost
Youll be surprised how many programmers forget this important command in my experience
Quote: heatmapCasinos are probably required to retain all data they incur for so many years after they get it so probably not and saving data is so cheap these days it’s more profitable to save said data forever after it’s been created to mine the data and sell the data
I have degrees in this stuff if you don’t trust my word btw
Casinos could save data forever, but they purposefully choose not to and for some good reasons. For example it takes fewer resources (available personal) to make data retrieval available for only a limited amount of time. Other reasons to limit data access are court cases involving fishing expeditions for liability, accounting errors, etc...
They may save some data for 10 years, but claim that they only have one or two years.
Quote: KeyserCasinos could save data forever, but they purposefully choose not to and for some good reasons. For example it takes fewer resources (available personal) to make data retrieval available for only a limited amount of time. Other reasons to limit data access are court cases involving fishing expeditions for liability, accounting errors, etc...
They may save some data for 10 years, but claim that they only have one or two years.
If that is one reason then the casinos are even stupider than we all think
Filing most civil cases has a 1 year statute of limitations. Furthermore once filed a competent attorney files a notice to the casino for all documentation to be saved. Finally failing to save all pertinent info to purposely avoid lawsuits usually winds up in court censure and default judgements
Quote: DarkozIf that is one reason then the casinos are even stupider than we all think
Filing most civil cases has a 1 year statute of limitations. Furthermore once filed a competent attorney files a notice to the casino for all documentation to be saved. Finally failing to save all pertinent info to purposely avoid lawsuits usually winds up in court censure and default judgements
You're thinking is narrow minded. Of course the statute of limitation applies to some cases, but not others. Just curious, how many years of tapes do you think the FBI is going back on Paddock? I wonder if the attorneys representing families of the dead and injured are wanting to fish through years of tapes/discs/data to demonstrate a pattern of the casino looking the other way with regards to security, etc... What can be found fishing through countless years of data?
The smart approach is to claim that the casino only keeps the data for the last few years, even if they really have it for all time. If need be it can be retrieved when it supports them and lost/deleted when it does not. It doesn't sound fair, but it's reality.
In short, the casino safes data for the min. length of time designated by law and the duration that will benefit them the most.
Quote: darkoz
If they think to include a copy flag or copy key command. If the new voucher configuration does not copy the pertinent info then the trail is lost
Youll be surprised how many programmers forget this important command in my experience
I have been programming casino player tracking systems for over 20 years and I have no idea what you are talking about.
Quote: DRichI have been programming casino player tracking systems for over 20 years and I have no idea what you are talking about.
Interesting.
Quote: Keyser
The smart approach is to claim that the casino only keeps the data for the last few years, even if they really have it for all time. If need be it can be retrieved when it supports them and lost/deleted when it does not. It doesn't sound fair, but it's reality.
In short, the casino safes data for the min. length of time designated by law and the duration that will benefit them the most.
In Nevada the casinos are required to keep information for a minimum of five years.
Quote: DRichI have been programming casino player tracking systems for over 20 years and I have no idea what you are talking about.
I know!
Thats precisely why i am so successful beating casino tracking systems
Quote: KeyserQuote: DarkozIf that is one reason then the casinos are even stupider than we all think
Filing most civil cases has a 1 year statute of limitations. Furthermore once filed a competent attorney files a notice to the casino for all documentation to be saved. Finally failing to save all pertinent info to purposely avoid lawsuits usually winds up in court censure and default judgements
You're thinking is narrow minded. Of course the statute of limitation applies to some cases, but not others. Just curious, how many years of tapes do you think the FBI is going back on Paddock? I wonder if the attorneys representing families of the dead and injured are wanting to fish through years of tapes/discs/data to demonstrate a pattern of the casino looking the other way with regards to security, etc... What can be found fishing through countless years of data?
The smart approach is to claim that the casino only keeps the data for the last few years, even if they really have it for all time. If need be it can be retrieved when it supports them and lost/deleted when it does not. It doesn't sound fair, but it's reality.
In short, the casino safes data for the min. length of time designated by law and the duration that will benefit them the most.
Aside from murder what has no limitations statutes?
Even rape has a statute of limitations in jurisdiction im aware of
BTW - proof a casino is purposely withholding evidence material to a case can result in both heavy judgements as well as default judgements
Not saying these tactics arent use by casinos. Just that they are stupid for doing them
Quote: DRichThe voucher has no other information other than what is printed on it. Yes, there is a history in the database that could be used for forensic analysis.
How come there is a database history, but no info on the voucher.
Do you mean the detailed information is stored in the slot machine, so it's not on the voucher?
Quote: BTLWIIf you want to kill the trail just cash out the ticket and reinsert the cash into a random slot machine. The new ticket has no history or trail.
Cash out the "info-packed" ticket,
insert $20 bill,
insert the "info-packed" ticket,
cash out the ticket.
Is this the procedure you're talking about?
I don't understand why it kills the trail if there is a trail.
Quote: WalterW
Do you mean the detailed information is stored in the slot machine, so it's not on the voucher?
Yes, the ticket is just a bar code, and there is no info other than the ticket number. The detailed information is saved on the accounting server which authorized the ticket. Some info is stored on the slot machine, but it only keeps a log of recent tickets.
Quote: CrystalMathYes, the ticket is just a bar code, and there is no info other than the ticket number. The detailed information is saved on the accounting server which authorized the ticket. Some info is stored on the slot machine, but it only keeps a log of recent tickets.
Which goes towards my observation that vouchers that may be flagged often dont have copy flag commands
Again I have found that adding money to a ticket I know is flagged will often create a new barcode missing that flag.
Basically the new barcode has to contain the cash deposit information - a new barcode is in essence created. And since nothing instructs the software to copy the original barcodes flags you wind up with an unflagged voucher
Quote: darkozIf that is one reason then the casinos are even stupider than we all think
Filing most civil cases has a 1 year statute of limitations. Furthermore once filed a competent attorney files a notice to the casino for all documentation to be saved. Finally failing to save all pertinent info to purposely avoid lawsuits usually winds up in court censure and default judgements
Gotta disagree with you on this.
Data retention is a very serious issue in Air Traffic. We had checklists as supervisors/controllers-in-charge that had to be completed and signed off/logged each business day. Unless there was an official inquiry into a particular day's data, all paper and electronic copies were destroyed, including frequency tapes, time sheets, flight data strips, whatever, each on its own schedule (14 days, 30 days, 1 year).
It's my understanding this was so liability protections would stand. I think it was also to defeat FOIA suits not promptly brought. But more than one controller sweated out the 14 days until the tape was destroyed, if they put something boneheaded on the air. Me included.
all of those record retentions had been specified in CFRs, which is federal regulation the government must follow procedurally. Must protect all records until the moment they are destroyed, and destroy them immediately upon due date.
If casinos are keeping records like that, it is because the governing jurisdiction requires it. They might have their own purposes on a small amount of it, like a trail for repeat cheaters or scammers, but they cant want the vast amount of it cluttering up their storage areas or waiting to be FOIAd or Gaming equivalent.
Point being, statutes on record tend to be sufficient notice to all parties on record retention. No court is going to find an entity purposefully negligent if they have record retention procedures published and follow them. Even if the overall purpose in having retention procedures is to thwart litigation.
Quote: beachbumbabsGotta disagree with you on this.
Data retention is a very serious issue in Air Traffic. We had checklists as supervisors/controllers-in-charge that had to be completed and signed off/logged each business day. Unless there was an official inquiry into a particular day's data, all paper and electronic copies were destroyed, including frequency tapes, time sheets, flight data strips, whatever, each on its own schedule (14 days, 30 days, 1 year).
It's my understanding this was so liability protections would stand. I think it was also to defeat FOIA suits not promptly brought. But more than one controller sweated out the 14 days until the tape was destroyed, if they put something boneheaded on the air. Me included.
all of those record retentions had been specified in CFRs, which is federal regulation the government must follow procedurally. Must protect all records until the moment they are destroyed, and destroy them immediately upon due date.
If casinos are keeping records like that, it is because the governing jurisdiction requires it. They might have their own purposes on a small amount of it, like a trail for repeat cheaters or scammers, but they cant want the vast amount of it cluttering up their storage areas or waiting to be FOIAd or Gaming equivalent.
Point being, statutes on record tend to be sufficient notice to all parties on record retention. No court is going to find an entity purposefully negligent if they have record retention procedures published and follow them. Even if the overall purpose in having retention procedures is to thwart litigation.
Its quite possible we are crossing wires here
I am quite certain there are different requirements for non-incident surveillance and record keeping vs incidents
Tapes that just captured players gambling might be destroyed within weeks
An incident where surveillance monitors a person being ejected will need to be kept longer.
First thing an attorney does in possible litigation circumstances is notify the casino of future action AND a legal request for all documentation to be preserved in matters pertaining to the case
Any casino that then moves forward to destroy documents does so at their own peril.
This has occurred before and always to the casinos detriment!!!
Quote: darkozWhich goes towards my observation that vouchers that may be flagged often dont have copy flag commands
Again I have found that adding money to a ticket I know is flagged will often create a new barcode missing that flag.
Basically the new barcode has to contain the cash deposit information - a new barcode is in essence created. And since nothing instructs the software to copy the original barcodes flags you wind up with an unflagged voucher
Promotional money that is flagged to be non-cashable will never turn cashable. Once you play through the non-cashable portion, then you can cashout whenever you wish.
Quote: CrystalMathPromotional money that is flagged to be non-cashable will never turn cashable. Once you play through the non-cashable portion, then you can cashout whenever you wish.
We agree
Im not referring to the normal course of flags
Ex.
$200 freeplay. Gamble thru the entire $200. Have $160 left over
NOW you print out the voucher. If the redemption machines all say go see cashier thar voucher may have a security flag so they can watch who is cashing it out
Adding money before printing out vouchers gleaned from freeplay playthrough will usually eliminate the security flag because they lack a copy flag command
That may not work everywhere. But I have observed it in a few locales
I usually come across these security flags when the casino thinks someone else is utilizing the freeplay other than the named cardholder
EDIT: The reason for this roundabout method instead of just a security alert when inserting the card is they dont know what the cardholder looks like in general. A man using another mans card cannot be summarily flagged. However if you approach the cashier with a flagged voucher and are asked for ID that is to make a match against that flagged voucher
Quote: darkoz$200 freeplay. Gamble thru the entire $200. Have $160 left over
NOW you print out the voucher. If the redemption machines all say go see cashier that voucher may have a security flag so they can watch who is cashing it out
Adding money before printing out vouchers gleaned from freeplay playthrough will usually eliminate the security flag because they lack a copy flag command
Would it work if you insert a $20 bill first, gamble thru the $200 freeplay, then immediately cashout? You still didn't play a penny of your own money.
Let's say there's $3000 voucher that has accumulated 10 freeplay sessions from 10 different cards on different machines,
If you insert the $3000 voucher into machine A, played through another freeplay on 11th card and cash out, will machine A record all the data history of that voucher?
Quote: WalterWWould it work if you insert a $20 bill first, gamble thru the $200 freeplay, then immediately cashout? You still didn't play a penny of your own money.
Let's say there's $3000 voucher that has accumulated 10 freeplay sessions from 10 different cards on different machines,
If you insert the $3000 voucher into machine A, played through another freeplay on 11th card and cash out, will machine A record all the data history of that voucher?
Theoretically they can.
In practice I have not seen it. I often piggyback one freeplay with another. Its no problems cashing out. This can go on months with no issues
Either the data is not being retained or the tons of metadata collected from the thousands of customers daily isnt being analyzed. Probably too much data to sift through.
Its certainly not something they would have a dedicated staff member doing. So data thats there and unseen is the same as a tree making a sound in an empty wood.
I have seen two simultaneously downloaded freeplays freeze an account
Ex. Download $100 freeplay. Then pull out card (when freeplay does not reload onto account) and downloaded a second players freeplay before playing thru the first
Husband and wives sometimes do that and have to go to customer service. No serious AP would make that mistake I hope
Quote: darkoz
Either the data is not being retained or the tons of metadata collected from the thousands of customers daily isnt being analyzed. Probably too much data to sift through.
Generally they do not look at that data unless something else jumps out to them as suspicious.
