Completely Unfair Promotions

For this OP, I am going to copy/paste from OneNickelMiracle in the Miscellaneous Discussion Thread. The reason that I don't break this off into its own topic is because the Miscellaneous Discussion Thread is too big for a split and any attempt to load the thing such that it can be split would probably break my computer.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Can you beat someone in a pigskin picks contest if they get 5 picks and you get a maximum of 4 picks? Assuming skill level is equal. The contest doesn't even say each set of picks is separate and noncumulative, but I'm betting they have to be. It's such a huge disadvantage, and it adds up for 17 weeks. How it works, everyone gets 1 entry, Exec Producers and Icons get two additional free, then you can get up to three extra picks for 100 points each. However, these top two tiers can get a total of 5 max, everyone else gets a total of 4 max. The points have to be earned Tuesday-Thursday and you can only enter picks Tuesday-Thursday, so points earned on the weekends dont count. I can understand spotting free entries, but rigging it so it's a disadvantage, that seems wrong. The Ohio lottery rubber stamps everything, I'm not even sure if this is legal.

http://www.hollywoodmahoningvalley.com/promotions/choose-the-champs

The first thing that I want to say is nothing would surprise me coming from a Hollywood branded property, especially not when that property is a racino.

Here is what we know (from ONM's link):

CHOOSE THE CHAMPS

SEPTEMBER 5, 2017 - JANUARY 2, 2018

Swipe your Marquee Rewards card at a kiosk from Tuesday-Thursday afternoon at 5:00PM each week and select the pro football teams you think will win in the upcoming Thursday-Monday games.

From 10:00AM-9:00PM each Tuesday, beginning September 12, 2017, the 5 guests with the most correct picks will win their share of Free VLT Play!

At the end of the promotional period, the top 10 overall promotion winners will win a Free VLT Play prize.

The guest with the most correct picks will win a trip for two to the Tropicana Las Vegas for a Super Bowl Watch Party!

(Copy/Pasting the information is Fair Use as it is being used for commentary purposes)

Okay, from that link there is a link to another page upon which ONM is getting his information that non Executive Producers or Icons are effectively limited to four picks per week while those two tiers receive as many as five Picks per week.

We also see that there is a weekly prize by which the five guests with the, 'Most,' correct picks will win their share of Free Play.

The first thing that concerns me is, even if this is picking against the spread, five random ATS Picks essentially have:

(.5)^5 = .03125 or a 3.125% chance of being picked perfectly.

The problem with that is that it is easy to envision a situation in which MORE THAN five people will pick perfectly and will have made five Picks. In fact, if we look at the probability as being 1 in 32, then that means, using a binomial distribution:

http://vassarstats.net/binomialX.html

150 such players is about the magic number at which we expect to have five or more run the table (50%+ probability) and 182 players is about where we start to expect to see six or more run the table. (50%+ probability)

Again, that's predicated upon that number of players making five picks.

When you start to look at more players than that, then it becomes even more likely that six or more players will get five picks correct. For example, if 500 players make five Picks, then the probability of six (or more) getting them all right shoots up to 0.998399393959 or 99.8399393959%.

If you talk about 1,000 players who get to make five Picks, then you're at 0.999999994479 for at least six players to have picked all five correctly.

What does that mean?

That means if 1,000 players get five picks ATS, then the Odds of a player with four Picks even having a chance to win for the week AT ALL come in at about 1 in 181,126,608.

In other words, depending on the number of players who receive five entries, yes, it does become effectively very close to impossible for other players to win.

While the Math would depend on the specific teams at play that week (implied probabilities of winning based on point spread) it becomes even less likely for a player with only four picks to even have the opportunity to defeat a player with five picks if the winner is to be picked, 'Straight Up,' assuming that the player with five picks at all rationally. (In this case, rationally would be picking the five biggest favorites since the Monday Night Football score is the tiebreaker and five wins are five wins)

Following the link, let's take a look at some other Terms:

9. The Tuesday following the games (the week after guests make their picks and beginning
Tuesday, September 12, 2017), the 5 guests with the most correct picks will win Free VLT
Play. Guests with winning picks must return to the marketing kiosk each Tuesday between
10:00am and 9:00pm to claim their Free VLT Play prize. Guests who do not claim within this
time frame each Tuesday will forfeit their Free VLT Play prize, and the prize will not be
reissued.

10.Weekly winners can only be claimed the Tuesday following the games from 10:00am –9:00p.m.

Therefore, we see that there is a weekly prize and it goes to the, "Five guests with the most correct Picks." Again, when you get up to 182 players making five picks, and that's ATS, you already have it more likely than not that more than five players will pick all five chosen games perfectly. While difficult to quantify, it is even more likely for players who are picking the winners straight up provided that they are picking rationally.

For that reason there is a tiebreaker, which is being closest to guessing the score of the Monday night game correctly. There is also a second tiebreaker (if two players both guess the Monday night score correctly) and that is the player who made the picks first wins.

Of course, Hollywood being Hollywood, players have an eleven hour window, on Tuesdays, to claim the weekly prize. They must appear in person to do so, and as we all know, many of them won't. In fact, a bunch of idiots won't read the Rules at all and will make picks despite the fact that they will not be there on Tuesday (even if they do win) and I'm sure that Hollywood Mahoning Valley whatever is more than happy with that arrangement.

LITTLE BIT OF A DISAGREEMENT

ONM seems to think that the Overall Promotion Winner is adjudicated by number of winning Picks over the entire season, but that's not how I read it at all. From the Hollywood site:

The guest with the mostly weekly wins over the 17-week promotional period will receive a
trip to the Tropicana in Las Vegas for a Super Bowl watch party.

In the event that there is more than one (1) guest in first place, the
Monday scores for each week will be reviewed and used as the tie breaker. The guest with
the most Monday score tie breaker wins will be awarded the Super Bowl Las Vegas Watch
Party prize. The guest who does not win will receive one thousand dollars ($1,000) in Free
VLT Play.

In order to be awarded the first place prize, the guest must have participated in all
seventeen (17) weeks of the promotional period.

The first thing that I notice is that Hollywood references, "Most weekly winners," and, "Monday scores for each week to be used as the tie breaker," but nowhere does it mention overall picks record. Granted, there is a fair chance that the person who won the most, 'Weeks,' would also have the most overall wins, but that is not necessarily the case.

Answer to ONM's Question

It is technically possible for a player who only gets four picks to be a Weekly Winner, thus, it is possible for such a player to win the entire thing. However, at a certain point (depending on how many entrants there are in a week with five picks) it becomes effectively impossible to win with four correct picks if there are too many players who have five picks. Because it can theoretically become effectively impossible to win even a single week, it can become effectively impossible to win the whole thing.

However, if there are not many players with five picks (or not all of them use them) it is possible for a player with only four picks to win. For example, if there are four (or fewer) participating players with five Picks for a given week, then at least one player with only four picks MUST win.

So, without knowing how many players are going to have five picks in a given week, and how many of those such players are going to play every week, it is an impossible question to answer exactly. The only generalization I can offer is that, the more players with five Picks, the more difficult it becomes...but you already knew that.

Finally

Why Hollywood could not just give their top two tiers five free entries on the thing and let everyone else earn as many as five entries through play I do not understand, other than, it's Hollywood, the hell do you expect?

I don't understand how it is rigged. Just play enough to be in the top tier with the most picks.

Before commenting, I'd have to know how easy it is to move up to those tiers.

Quote: DRich

I don't understand how it is rigged. Just play enough to be in the top tier with the most picks.

In a few days? What if you are a new member of the PC who joins the day before the contest?

Besides, the place is a racino slotbox dump. To call it a casino is to unnecessarily glorify it. There is no Video Poker and no Table Games. Keno/Slots/Racing only.

Even with that being the case, I see your point, but you effectively have to run $125,000 coin-in (during the six month period) in order to get up to the point where you get five picks. People who have achieved that tier had all of January 1st-June 30th to do so, so effectively, you're asking for players who have not achieved that tier to achieve the same coin-in within fewer than forty days to have an equal chance throughout the entire contest.

Perhaps not rigged, but the next closest thing.

Quote: billryan

Before commenting, I'd have to know how easy it is to move up to those tiers.

$125,000 coin-in less whatever you have already achieved. Slots/Keno only.

EDIT: No, I take that back. I guess you could play VP/Tables, but it would have to be at a different Hollywood location. I also don't know how those games affect the coin-in requirements, if there is any effect.

No back door ways? Getting a Hollywood visa, being a Vet, no producer in a day, like in Vegas?
It does seem pretty stacked against the lowest tier, but I wouldn't call it rigged.

The Marquee card is WORTHLESS!!

Quote: Mission146

In a few days? What if you are a new member of the PC who joins the day before the contest?

Besides, the place is a racino slotbox dump. To call it a casino is to unnecessarily glorify it. There is no Video Poker and no Table Games. Keno/Slots/Racing only.

Even with that being the case, I see your point, but you effectively have to run $125,000 coin-in (during the six month period) in order to get up to the point where you get five picks. People who have achieved that tier had all of January 1st-June 30th to do so, so effectively, you're asking for players who have not achieved that tier to achieve the same coin-in within fewer than forty days to have an equal chance throughout the entire contest.

Perhaps not rigged, but the next closest thing.

Do they have to reach the highest tier prior to the first week? What if I achieve it in week 3? In any case 40 days should be plenty of time to run through $125k coin-in. $3000 a day doesn't sound like it would take long assuming they have multi-denom multi-line games.

I don't see anything wrong with giving people a better chance based on more play.

Here's my point:

Most Promotions of this nature at least provide for some mechanism (other than tier status) by which an individual can put himself on an equal footing with a high tier member, or at least, they should. For example, a certain tier might start off with one-hundred bonus entries (or even a thousand) into a particular drawing, but assuming $5 coin-in earns one entry (or whatever) then all a person would have to do is run through $500 coin-in more than the high tier member, or $5,000 more in the case of a 1,000 point spot for high tiers, and the first person is now on equal footing.

It just seems unfair to me for tier status alone to be the decider in whether or not an individual effectively has a chance at a particular promotion. Might as well make it tier exclusive if it becomes effectively impossible to win. A player could have one drawing entry out of a million, but provided the draw is random, that person could conceivably win. Like I pointed out, if there were 1,000 people with five random ATS Picks, the odds of someone's four picks even theoretically coming into play are well over 1 in 100 million.

It's patently ridiculous.

Quote: billryan

No back door ways? Getting a Hollywood visa, being a Vet, no producer in a day, like in Vegas?
It does seem pretty stacked against the lowest tier, but I wouldn't call it rigged.

I didn't call it rigged, I called it unfair. There should be some reasonable means by which a lower tier player can earn as many entries as a higher tier player gets. You could even make it $500/entry and give the high tiers all five entries free and I would be willing to call that relatively fair.

I don't know anything about Hollywood Visa or what it does. Should you really have to get a credit card to have an equal chance at a promotion? Potential credit score impacts, and all?

Quote: DRich

Do they have to reach the highest tier prior to the first week? What if I achieve it in week 3? In any case 40 days should be plenty of time to run through $125k coin-in. $3000 a day doesn't sound like it would take long assuming they have multi-denom multi-line games.

I don't see anything wrong with giving people a better chance based on more play.

Well, "Forty days," assumes this has been promoted since August 1st. I don't know if it has or not, maybe ONM does.

Perhaps this has only been promoted the last few days.

Okay, if you achieve the tier status in Week 3, then you may have been effectively unable to win the first two weeks and are, as such, at a pretty significant disadvantage for the overall prizes.

I actually don't have a problem with your 3k/day idea. I'd be fine with giving the high tiers all five entries free and the lower tiers would have to get one entry per $500 or $1,000 coin in. It's only $100 coin now, but they're maxed out at four entries. Make it five entries and $500 or $1,000 coin-in per entry, and I've got no problem with this.

Hasn't Dancer had blog entries talking about this exact scenario of higher tiered/limit players getting more entries than regular folks?

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Hasn't Dancer had blog entries talking about this exact scenario of higher tiered/limit players getting more entries than regular folks?

I believe so, I think I remember reading some.

Again, the reason I agree with ONM (and he may have different reasons for his opinion) is that there is no mechanism aside from tier status by which a player may earn five Picks. To me, that's what makes it unfair. If you're talking about earned v. given drawing entries, provided drawing entries can reasonably be, "Earned," then there at least exists a mechanism by which a player can, "Catch up."

Think about it, $125,000 coin-in to get the tier status in a slot box. Slots/VK only, looking at 88%-92% barring any advantageous machines (such as must-hits) and the know-how to identify them. Expected loss $10,000-$12,500 just to get the same number of Picks as the higher tiers to theoretically have a chance to win. I can't figure out how that's fair.

It wasn't a casino. However when I lived in the bay area, there was a contest put on by the sf giants and some company.

it was similar to one of those half court shot contests except the person who was chosen would face former MLB pitcher Vida Blue. Their task would be to hit a home run out of the giant's ball park.

If you don't really know much about baseball, this is an impossible task for the vast majority of the population. I'd guess that way less than 1% of people could ever do it. It's like saying, " win this drawing and if you can bench press 400 pounds you'll get $50,000"

There were ads for it constantly so I was in a perpetual state of rage.

Considering Vida Blue is 68 years old I wouldn't mind that opportunity. I'd love to know the rules of that one. The right-filed line is only 309 ft.

Quote: Skeptic

Considering Vida Blue is 68 years old I wouldn't mind that opportunity. I'd love to know the rules of that one. The right-filed line is only 309 ft.

Maybe, but when you talk about anybody from among the pool of entrants being able to be drawn (and people with no chance not having the decency/intelligence to exclude themselves) you could end up with some equally aged person attempting to smack one out of the park.

I mean, there are some people who couldn't smack a golf ball that far off of a tee, let alone spank a home run being allowed one pitch.

I would think Mr Blue would not be showing the contest winner his best stuff.

Funny you mention that, I was just wondering how many could hit a baseball 310ft off a tee-ball stand. The velocity of the pitch matters when calculating the force of the ball off the bat.

Again, the rules are everything. How many pitches are there; how many times can Blue even get it over the plate; are substitution batters allowed?

I agree that for most people it would be harder than the half-court shot.

"Baseball Physics, the Anatomy of a Home Run": http://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/sports/a4569/4216783/

Clicking on article now but Vida wasn't the main point. Obviously, you want someone who can get it over the plate with at least some velocity.

I guess a few more people can hit it 309 down the line, not that this is easy.

Any numbers on what percentage of an actual Major League Player's shots go over in BP?

I found this discussion about how common home runs are in high school. It's more extreme than I thought. Only a minority of high school players would have any hope in the contest, perhaps barring a perfectly placed shot down the 309 line. Only a minority hit home runs on smaller, high school fields. If you hit more than 5, seems like you have a good chance of playing in college.

http://community.hsbaseballweb.com/topic/what-of-high-school-baseball-players-can-hit-home-runs

People's instincts are really out of whack on these things. I think when you see extreme outliers on tv a lot, you start to forget how extreme they are.

This is why RS and Rome's think a girl could beat up Floyd Mayweather if she knows Karate.

Great link!

That's what I'm saying, I think you have so many people enter the thing that have positively no hope of doing it that it ends p very likely that the person selected never has a chance. It seems like an easy task until you start putting bat to ball. I played a little ball and I don't think my best (read: hardest) hit ever traveled 300 in the air. Of course, I was a contact hitter, by which I mean that I struck out (or walked) a ton and was mostly used for my glove and arm. I sucked at batting.

Quote: Mission146

I believe so, I think I remember reading some.

Again, the reason I agree with ONM (and he may have different reasons for his opinion) is that there is no mechanism aside from tier status by which a player may earn five Picks. To me, that's what makes it unfair. If you're talking about earned v. given drawing entries, provided drawing entries can reasonably be, "Earned," then there at least exists a mechanism by which a player can, "Catch up."

Think about it, $125,000 coin-in to get the tier status in a slot box. Slots/VK only, looking at 88%-92% barring any advantageous machines (such as must-hits) and the know-how to identify them. Expected loss $10,000-$12,500 just to get the same number of Picks as the higher tiers to theoretically have a chance to win. I can't figure out how that's fair.

I still don't understand why you think that makes it unfair. The players that did achieve the higher tier status also had a $10-$12k expected loss. Would it be better if they only allowed the high tier players in the contest, would that make it fair? The way I see it is that everybody still has a chance to win on the weekly prizes and it is still theoretically possible for them to win the whole season (very unlikely).

Part of the skill of successful gambling at promotions is picking the promotions that work best for you. It sounds like Icon and Executive Producer are very expensive to earn at that casino. In Vegas at the M Resort, for now anyway, you can earn them playing games with positive EV. Personally, I believe Marquee Rewards Icon status has considerable value.

Every promotion gives one set of people an advantage over others. Sometimes high coin-in gives you benefits --- and obviously that hurts the nickel-quarter player. Sometimes everybody gets the same number of entries --- and that hurts the players who are able and willing to put in a high volume of coin-in. (I generally avoid this latter type of promotion.)

If Icon and Executive Producer get free cruises and lower tier levels don’t, do you consider that unfair? If these same tier levels can cash in their points on a 2-for-1 basis at restaurants and lower tiers can’t, do you consider that unfair? At many properties, tiers have real value. Often those benefits are yawn-worthy, but sometimes they are something you want. This particular time, they higher tiers got extra entries the lower tiers didn’t. To me this isn’t unfair. It’s merely one of the perks of the tier.

One thing is certain. Many players who belong to the class of people who have smaller-than-average chances will complain that the promotion is unfair. If I played $200,000 coin-in for a drawing weekly, and seemed to “always win,” players who didn’t have the bankroll and knowledge to play that way would think it’s unfair. And some would complain to management. (And savvy players guard against this by not winning all the time. If they win, they take a month or so off before they try to win again. If the GMs best way to solve a problem is to kick me out, clearly I’m doing something wrong.)

If you think this promotion is unfair, then simply don’t play! Save your money and energy for those promotions where you have a better chance.

Complaining about it here won’t do you any good, unless just plain venting gives you positive EV. If you make the same argument to the GM of the property, sometimes it gets things changed. If you do it a lot to the same GM, sometimes you will be kicked out as a trouble-maker.

But demanding the club removes the benefits of tier level so people who just signed up yesterday can get the same benefits as a customer who plays a considerable amount is simply an argument you are not likely to win.

Quote: Mission146

Well, "Forty days," assumes this has been promoted since August 1st. I don't know if it has or not, maybe ONM does.

Perhaps this has only been promoted the last few days.

Okay, if you achieve the tier status in Week 3, then you may have been effectively unable to win the first two weeks and are, as such, at a pretty significant disadvantage for the overall prizes.

I actually don't have a problem with your 3k/day idea. I'd be fine with giving the high tiers all five entries free and the lower tiers would have to get one entry per $500 or $1,000 coin in. It's only $100 coin now, but they're maxed out at four entries. Make it five entries and $500 or $1,000 coin-in per entry, and I've got no problem with this.

The promotion summations and rules do not go up until the month they start within. It has been a mess this year and with little dignity. The worst promotions have not had any rules online, and they brought the most disappointment. There were two nearly identical promotions that were ran completely different, a total scandal. The list goes on and on.

There are supposed to be federal rules regarding sweepstakes and contests, if they're not followed, they're not only unfair, they can be considered illegal lotteries. This promotion I don't think passes the sniff test as far as I'm concerned, probably illegal breaking some FTC rules I'd guess. Things are more complicated than opinions of fairness or unfairness, I cannot say exactly what the rules are, because I do not know them and there are many. Usually companies are fearful of the federal government and make sure they're compliant, maybe the state of Ohio shields the casino from federal action, I do not know.

Anyone who cries about the unfairness of this promotion probably supports a universal basic income.

Quote: DRich

I still don't understand why you think that makes it unfair. The players that did achieve the higher tier status also had a $10-$12k expected loss. Would it be better if they only allowed the high tier players in the contest, would that make it fair? The way I see it is that everybody still has a chance to win on the weekly prizes and it is still theoretically possible for them to win the whole season (very unlikely).

They had a 10k-12k expected loss over a period of six months, and as BobDancer points out, they may have gotten their tiers at +EV (which could theoretically apply to other players, too, of course).

My point is, you saw the math back on page 1, if you have 1,000 people enter the contest (assuming ATS Picks) who all get five chances, then all of the players with only four picks have odds of over 1 in 100 million of their picks even mattering for an individual week, much less over the entire promotion.

I think it's different than a drawing in which you give some free entries to higher tiers, but then everyone else has the opportunity to earn some entries. Even if you toss the higher tiers 1,000 free entries apiece, and there are a thousand such people, an individual entry from someone else is still at something like 1 in a million to win. To me, that's a lot farther from, "Effectively impossible," than getting to only pick four winning teams whereas 1,000 other people get to pick five.

It's not like each entry equals five picks, each entry equals one pick. Some people are capped at five while others are effectively capped at four. If you had 1,000 people who got to call five coin flips, but I get to call four, the four I call are not even going to matter because of the high probability of six or more of the 1,000 with five picks getting all five right.

Depending on the number of entries, the promotion, in effect, IS only for the higher tier players, they just don't say that.

Quote: BobDancer

Part of the skill of successful gambling at promotions is picking the promotions that work best for you. It sounds like Icon and Executive Producer are very expensive to earn at that casino. In Vegas at the M Resort, for now anyway, you can earn them playing games with positive EV. Personally, I believe Marquee Rewards Icon status has considerable value.

I agree with you, but I'm not complaining from an AP perspective. As an AP, I wouldn't play this promotion (the only way to earn entries are slots/VK) unless I just happened to earn them in the course and scope of APing slots. Of course, I would not be APing slots at that casino to begin with.

I just don't like how lower-tier players are compelled to earn entries like it's actually going to matter. Again, this isn't like a drawing where every entry has a chance. The higher tiers get to pick five teams while the lower ones get to pick a maximum of four. Four effectively cannot beat five if there are enough people with five entries.

With a standard drawing, a person with one entry could conceivably get called as opposed to a person with 1,000 or even 10,000 entries. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with compelling people to play a promotion when (depending on the number of people who use all five entries) it is effectively impossible to win for a single week, much less the whole thing.

Quote:

Every promotion gives one set of people an advantage over others. Sometimes high coin-in gives you benefits --- and obviously that hurts the nickel-quarter player. Sometimes everybody gets the same number of entries --- and that hurts the players who are able and willing to put in a high volume of coin-in. (I generally avoid this latter type of promotion.)

I agree with that, I'm talking about reasonably possible v. effectively impossible. Like I said, give the higher tiers all five entries free and make the lower tiers earn each entry with $500 or even $1,000 coin-in per entry, and I'd be just fine with that.

Hell, at $1,000 coin in per entry, the player would be only 40k coin in from the second highest tier just by earning the necessary coin-in for the promotion every week to be allowed five Picks.

Quote:

If Icon and Executive Producer get free cruises and lower tier levels don’t, do you consider that unfair? If these same tier levels can cash in their points on a 2-for-1 basis at restaurants and lower tiers can’t, do you consider that unfair? At many properties, tiers have real value. Often those benefits are yawn-worthy, but sometimes they are something you want. This particular time, they higher tiers got extra entries the lower tiers didn’t. To me this isn’t unfair. It’s merely one of the perks of the tier.

I have a ton of respect for you, but I think your first question is a strawman question. We're not talking about cruises or other tier benefits, we're talking about a promotion such that everyone is essentially marketed to as having a chance of winning, but the people who don't understand math might not realize there is a reasonably high probability that they effectively have no chance.

The other perks are also readily quantifiable. Here is a point, here is how many dollars it takes to get a point, here is a finite period of time, get this many points in this finite period of time and you will get this tier status, when you get this tier status we will give you this thing and that thing. There's really nothing even close to deceptive about the concept of tier status.

Quote:

One thing is certain. Many players who belong to the class of people who have smaller-than-average chances will complain that the promotion is unfair. If I played $200,000 coin-in for a drawing weekly, and seemed to “always win,” players who didn’t have the bankroll and knowledge to play that way would think it’s unfair. And some would complain to management. (And savvy players guard against this by not winning all the time. If they win, they take a month or so off before they try to win again. If the GMs best way to solve a problem is to kick me out, clearly I’m doing something wrong.)

I agree with you, I don't really think we differ too much on this. I'm not saying to put the lower tiers on the same plane as the higher tiers, I'm just saying not to market a promotion as though anyone can win when they probably can't.

Quote:

If you think this promotion is unfair, then simply don’t play! Save your money and energy for those promotions where you have a better chance.

Complaining about it here won’t do you any good, unless just plain venting gives you positive EV. If you make the same argument to the GM of the property, sometimes it gets things changed. If you do it a lot to the same GM, sometimes you will be kicked out as a trouble-maker.

I've never been there in my life, it's a slotbox. Unless I hear something about seriously disproportionate initial coin-in to FP offers, I have no reason to ever go there.

Quote:

But demanding the club removes the benefits of tier level so people who just signed up yesterday can get the same benefits as a customer who plays a considerable amount is simply an argument you are not likely to win.

When did I demand that? I say give the top two tiers all of their Picks free, just give the lower tiers the opportunity to conceivably earn the same number of picks. It's not a drawing, it's picking the most NFL winners. If someone is allowed to select five games and you can only select four, then if enough people get to select five games, it is effectively impossible for the player who only gets four to even conceive of winning.

Quote: Mission146

Depending on the number of entries, the promotion, in effect, IS only for the higher tier players, they just don't say that.

Sounds perfectly fair.

From the casino, I think there are about 150-200 executive producers and icons. Anyone could show up for this that want, but people showing up just for this, I doubt it.

They are no longer listing rules for the promotions on the website, just summaries. Maybe they're changing them, but for now, they're all gone, no PDFs to open. Just checked the link and it still works, but when I go directly to the website, nothing is there.

The thing I don't like about this is you will have people mad on the following Tuesday I guarantee there will be someone with 4 entries, get all 4 correct and nail the tie breaker. They will show up expecting to win and be told no someone had 5. They won't understand how that is possible.

And I guarantee that someone childish enough to be greatly troubled by this is already mad, in a lather about imagining they are unfairly screwed out of whatever they imagine should be theirs by pretty much everybody and everything everywhere, always, every day of their lives, always have been, and always will be. Here is the complete list of ALL possible potential cures for that problem: Grow up.

Quote: MaxPen

Anyone who cries about the unfairness of this promotion probably supports a universal basic income.

I don't.

Some people think it's fine for a business to bend/break/trample the truth in their advertising with impunity, as long as the truth is buried somewhere in some terms and conditions that 99.99% of the general public won't read.

In this case, the casino is telling people they can win something when the reality is, unless they have a top tier card, they can't win.

Quote: GWAE

The thing I don't like about this is you will have people mad on the following Tuesday I guarantee there will be someone with 4 entries, get all 4 correct and nail the tie breaker. They will show up expecting to win and be told no someone had 5. They won't understand how that is possible.

Thank you, that is my entire point!

Quote: GWAE

The thing I don't like about this is you will have people mad on the following Tuesday I guarantee there will be someone with 4 entries, get all 4 correct and nail the tie breaker. They will show up expecting to win and be told no someone had 5. They won't understand how that is possible.

That's a failure in marketing and customer service, not a lack of fairness. They were given the same opportunity to earn a fifth entry as everyone.

Quote: TomG

That's a failure in marketing and customer service, not a lack of fairness. They were given the same opportunity to earn a fifth entry as everyone.

By attaining a higher tier status?

A few extremes:

A.) You recently moved to the area and did not previously live near a Hollywood, but are a regular gambler.

B.) You recently turned 21.

Granted, anyone who went to the casino between January 1st-June 30th (and could have went during every date during that time) did have the theoretical ability to earn the same status as the others for this promotion that they did not know was going to happen.

And, yes, marketing! Thank you!

The higher tiers get ALL entries free, the lower tiers can earn up to five entries (with one free) for every $500 or $1,000 coin-in per entry earned, not the current coin-in of $100/entry.

See that? More fair contest. More money for the casino. Good marketing.

Quote: Mission146

Most Promotions of this nature at least provide for some mechanism (other than tier status) by which...

Nope, not really, I sure don't think so. And I still can't fathom why anyone would think they must. I've done many similar things, some of which have been annual and semi-annual tournament promos that have been going on for more than a decade, and no, most have not done what you insist they should. Most of them I've seen and participated in are particularly structured to reward the volume of tracked play, generally reflected in some kind of tier status, along with every other damn thing in most casinos most of the time, from freeroll tourneys to room rates to buffet lines and parking spots to the price of a teacup in the gift shop. That's kinda the whole point of them. Duh.

Quote: Mission146

It's patently ridiculous.

The only thing I'm finding ridiculous is the silly search for a way to feel somehow aggrieved.

Here's the brief descriptive advertisement for it:

Quote: http://www.hollywoodmahoningvalley.com/promotions/choose-the-champs

CHOOSE THE CHAMPS

SEPTEMBER 5, 2017 - JANUARY 2, 2018

Swipe your Marquee Rewards card at a kiosk from Tuesday-Thursday afternoon at 5:00PM each week and select the pro football teams you think will win in the upcoming Thursday-Monday games.

From 10:00AM-9:00PM each Tuesday, beginning September 12, 2017, the 5 guests with the most correct picks will win their share of Free VLT Play! At the end of the promotional period, the top 10 overall promotion winners will win a Free VLT Play prize.The guest with the most correct picks will win a trip for two to the Tropicana Las Vegas for a Super Bowl Watch Party!

Click here for rules.

I suppose some degenerate attention span challenged folk are indeed chronically unable to bear the effort of ever looking at any sort of rules of any game they might feel an impulse to play, or probably for anything else they ever do in life. Oh well, boo hoo. Here they are, per the LINK right in the ad (which seems to be working fine for me):

Quote:

Choose the Champs - Official Rules
Promotion Period
1. Hollywood Gaming at Mahoning Valley Race Course will conduct a “Choose the Champs”
promotion beginning at 12:00pm on Tuesday, September 5, 2017 and ending at 9:00pm
Tuesday, January 2, 2018.
2. All times referred to throughout these rules are Eastern Standard Time (EST).
Eligibility
1. Must be a member of the Marquee Rewards ® club.
2. Must be 21 years of age or older to obtain a Marquee Rewards card.
3. No purchase necessary to receive a Marquee Rewards card.
4. A valid government issued photo ID is required to verify age and identity.
Entries & Prizes
1. All Marquee Rewards members will receive one (1) free entry per week of the promotional
period. Executive Producers and Icons will receive two (2) free entries per week of the
promotional period.
2. Additional entries can be earned each week during the promotional period for every one
hundred (100) tier points ($100 coin-in) earned through play, for up to three (3) additional
entries, giving guests a total of four (4) entries per week, or five (5) for Executive Producers
and Icons.
3. Guests swipe their Marquee Rewards card at a marketing kiosk to participate.
4. Guests can select the pro football teams they think will win in the upcoming week’s
Thursday through Monday games as well as the final score for the Monday game of the
upcoming week.
5. Guests make their winning picks using the touchscreen on the kiosk and collect a receipt
listing their weekly picks.
6. Picks can only be made Tuesday – Thursday afternoon at 5:00pm for the upcoming football
games.
7. Once submitted, all weekly picks are final and cannot be modified.
8. If a guest does not want to make specific picks they can use a ‘quick pick’ feature.
9. The Tuesday following the games (the week after guests make their picks and beginning
Tuesday, September 12, 2017), the 5 guests with the most correct picks will win Free VLT
Play. Guests with winning picks must return to the marketing kiosk each Tuesday between
10:00am and 9:00pm to claim their Free VLT Play prize. Guests who do not claim within this
time frame each Tuesday will forfeit their Free VLT Play prize, and the prize will not be
reissued.
10. Weekly winners can only be claimed the Tuesday following the games from 10:00am –
9:00pm. Winners older than one week will not be honored.
Page 1Choose the Champs - Official Rules
Weekly Winners
Most Weekly Wins
2 nd
3 rd
4 th
5 th
$750 Free VLT Play
$500 Free VLT Play
$350 Free VLT Play
$250 Free VLT Play
$100 Free VLT Play
11. If there is a tie, the score of the Monday game will act as the tie-breaker. The guest who is
closest to guessing the score correctly will be the winner. In the event that there is a tie with
the score of the Monday game, the guest who made their picks first will be the winner.
12. At the end of the promotional period, Tuesday, January 2, 2018, weekly winners as well as
overall promotion winners will be available at the kiosks from 10:00am – 9:00pm.
Promotion-Long Winner Standings
Most Weekly Wins Overall
2 nd
3 rd
4 th
5 th
th
6 – 10 th
Super Bowl Vegas Watch
Party at Trop Las Vegas (or
$1,000 cash)
$1,000 Free VLT Play
$750 Free VLT Play
$500 Free VLT Play
$300 Free VLT Play
$250 Free VLT Play
13. The guest with the mostly weekly wins over the 17-week promotional period will receive a
trip to the Tropicana in Las Vegas for a Super Bowl watch party. The trip will include airfare
for two and three nights at the Tropicana Las Vegas. Trip is to be taken February 2 – 5, 2018.
There is a cash option of one thousand dollars ($1,000).
14. Only one (1) Super Bowl Las Vegas Watch Party prize will be awarded during the
promotional period. In the event that there is more than one (1) guest in first place, the
Monday scores for each week will be reviewed and used as the tie breaker. The guest with
the most Monday score tie breaker wins will be awarded the Super Bowl Las Vegas Watch
Party prize. The guest who does not win will receive one thousand dollars ($1,000) in Free
VLT Play.
15. In order to be awarded the first place prize, the guest must have participated in all
seventeen (17) weeks of the promotional period.
16. Should a technical difficulty occur, the free play will be awarded to the winner’s account
within twenty-four (24) hours.
17. Free VLT Play credits will be valid for thirty (30) days and expire at 11:59:59 pm on the final
valid date.
18. Free VLT Play credits may be downloaded in partial increments as playable credits on any
VLT machine. Once downloaded, unused credits will expire within seventy-two (72) hours.
19. Free VLT Play prizes are not subject to any federal, state, and local taxes.
20. In the event of a kiosk or technical malfunction/outage, Hollywood Gaming at Mahoning
Valley Race Course reserves the right to temporarily discontinue the promotion until a
reasonable solution has been determined and implemented. Any games or prizes being
played or awarded at the time of the malfunction will be honored and resolved within
twenty-four (24) hours. Hollywood Gaming at Mahoning Valley Race Course is not
responsible for games not played due to the malfunction/outage and during the
malfunction/outage period, as well as any subsequent prizes from those games. Prizes not
redeemed during the malfunction period will be reviewed and awarded on a case-by-
case basis at management’s discretion.
General Rules
1. Participants agree to the use of his or her first name, city & state and photograph for
advertising and promotional purposes without charge or additional compensation.
2. Persons on the Hollywood Mahoning Exclusion List are not eligible to participate in any
promotional programs.
3. Employees of Hollywood Gaming at Mahoning Valley Race Course, its subsidiaries, affiliates,
or parent companies, and those family members who reside in the same household are not
eligible to participate in this promotion.
4. Hollywood Gaming at Mahoning Valley Race Course is not responsible for lost or stolen
cards, cash, coupons, or lost/misdirected mail.
5. Program benefits are not transferable between patrons. Determination will be made at the
sole discretion of Hollywood Gaming at Mahoning Valley Race Course.
6. Hollywood Gaming at Mahoning Valley Race Course may disqualify any person based
upon fraud, dishonesty, and violation of program rules or other misconduct.
7. Hollywood Gaming at Mahoning Valley Race Course reserves the right to refuse
complimentary redemptions if it is determined that the true cardholder is not present or that
coupons or a complimentary reward has been changed, altered or tampered with in any
way.
8. Use of the Marquee Rewards ® card indicates acceptance of these Official Rules.
9. Any dispute or situation not covered by the above rules will be resolved by Management in
a manner deemed by them to be the fairest outcome for all concerned. That decision shall
be final and binding. In addition, Hollywood Gaming at Mahoning Valley Race Course
reserves the right to change, modify or cancel this program at any time.
10. Any change or cancellation of the program must be approved by the Ohio Lottery
Commission prior to the change or cancellation.
11. Winners are responsible for all applicable federal, state, and local taxes, title and licensing
fees.

Other than the formatting after my copy & paste job, I'm not seeing anything particularly bent or broken about them. But if you really do somehow find a way to see that, or find looking at contest rules just too unsufferably burdensome, then don't go there for your free entries. Or do, for 17 weeks, and continue going out of your way to find opportunities to be outraged. Outraged! Unfair! Something must be done, at once, to keep me from being so oppressed and exploited! I might have 20% fewer free picks in a silly football contest than someone who has played there a lot more, oh my! Oh, the humanity! Somebody somewhere must save us from this horror, this awful crown of thorns foisted upon me after not reading about who gets less or more of the promo freeplay!

Quote: DrawingDead

Nope, I sure don't think so, not really. And I still can't fathom why anyone would think they must. I've done many similar things, some of which have been annual and semi-annual promos that have been going on for more than a decade, and no, most have not done what you insist they should. Most of them I've seen and participated in are particularly structured to reward tracked play, generally reflected in some kind of tier status, along with every other damn thing in most casinos most of the time from freeroll tourneys to room rates to buffet lines and parking spots to the price of a teacup in the gift shop. That's kinda the whole point of them. Duh.

I agree with almost all of that. My only problem is four Picks v. five Picks. I don't understand why this is difficult.

Let's say that you have top-tiers, but the way the promotion works is you pick cards with each card to consist of all of the NFL games. The card with the most Picks correct wins, but all of the games are on every card. You could give the high tiers ten cards free, twenty, thirty, fifty, I don't care, and give everyone else one. You could limit low tiers to five cards, doesn't matter. Each card effectively has an equal chance of winning.

That's my entire point. This promotion is almost like a drawing entry BUT each individual entry DOES NOT have an equal chance of winning.

Quote:

The only thing I'm finding ridiculous is the silly search for a way to feel somehow aggrieved.

I believe I would have had to have entered that casino at some point in, I don't know, my entire life, to be personally aggrieved.

Also, I read the general promotion material AND the specific terms, I thought that my initial posts in this thread made that pretty clear, but I guess not. I mean, I quoted and cited a few of them in part. Linked to the specifics.

Any notion of telling people that they only get four picks and others get five on the, "Front," information, and I would also be fine with this. A person could say, "Hey, four is less than five last time I checked, I don't want to play this."

Quote:

Other than the formatting after my copy & paste job, I'm not seeing anything particularly bent or broken about them. But if you really do somehow, or find looking at contest rules just too unsufferably burdensome, then don't go there for your free entries. Or do, and continue going out of your way to find opportunities to be outraged. Outraged! Unfair! Something must be done, at once, to keep me from being so oppressed and exploited! I might have 20% fewer free picks in a silly football contest than someone who has played there a lot more. Oh, the humanity! Somebody somewhere must save us from this horror, after not reading about who gets less or more of the freeplay!

Again, never been there, never plan to be. My concern on that one is for the average gambler, which I am not.

Quote: DrawingDead

And I guarantee that someone childish enough to be greatly troubled by this is already mad, in a lather about imagining they are unfairly screwed out of whatever they imagine should be theirs by pretty much everybody and everything everywhere, always, every day of their lives, always have been, and always will be. Here is the complete list of ALL possible potential cures for that problem: Grow up.

At least you're coherent this time, I can understand whatever you're talking about. Usually I think it's some secret code you're communicating in, unless you're talking about horses. I haven't had time to go over whatever laws might cover this situation, one of the top search results is a PDF about ten pages long, which is quite difficult to read on a phone because of all the zooming in and moving around. I'm apt to believe this is not kosher, agreeing with Mission, there is no opportunity to come on equal terms. I usually don't play these, did not take it seriously last year and wont this year.

This is about right or wrong, legal or illegal, but it seems to come down to worldview for anyone not bothered by it. Just because people have seen worse or the same thing or similar, doesn't mean it was right then, so it's right now. It is not uncommon for the casino to have errors in the rules, they don't take them seriously like they should and it's totally possible they didn't even know how big an advantage they gave the EPs and Icons. I inherently knew it was bad, envisioning 5 coins versus 4 being flipped. Maybe they knew, maybe they didn't, they are not regulated by the state in an adversarial relationship, it really isnt, they're essentially self regulated. Last year like every place that runs these, people were entering friends and family 7 days a week, this is probably why the casino tried taking it away from freeloaders with no ADT to lose.

Somehow played 5 tickets, one of which is a fantasy football entry. Did not expect that, had no idea what to do. I just rushed through it all because time was short. Never even had time to look at a morning line.

They had a kiosk giveaway game which same play doubles for the football entries, the results seemed generous. Can't complain yet about that diamond spin promotion, seemed very generous. Lines were getting long, about the only problem, only three machines for the entire casino.

Short version: I thought you were allowed 4 or 5 individual game picks depending on tier, and that was the complaint. It appears, instead, reading the full TOC, you are picking (up to) a full slate of equal size 4 or 5 times. Is that correct?

If so, the former is unfair: the latter is not, IMO.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Short version: I thought you were allowed 4 or 5 individual game picks depending on tier, and that was the complaint. It appears, instead, reading the full TOC, you are picking (up to) a full slate of equal size 4 or 5 times. Is that correct?

If so, the former is unfair: the latter is not, IMO.

That's not how I read it unless they tweaked it a little, ambiguous if that is the correct interpretation. Either way, if that is how it works, then it is perfectly fair. I would have liked to have seen the verbiage, "Pick All the Games," somewhere. That would have clarified things a lot.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Short version: I thought you were allowed 4 or 5 individual game picks depending on tier, and that was the complaint. It appears, instead, reading the full TOC, you are picking (up to) a full slate of equal size 4 or 5 times. Is that correct?

If so, the former is unfair: the latter is not, IMO.

I'm not really sure how this is working now. Lots of confusion still exists. I dont think many top tier people even entered, there were not many entries total in the first place. Rules say you must enter every week to be eligible for the grand prize, final drawing, my estimate, only 300 people will be eligible total. Although the rules imply all entries are basically added together, I'm still not sure, but most people I've talked to believe they're considered individually and not cumulatively. The whole fantasy football pick might not be considered the extra pick, unsure. Producers might be getting a free extra pick, unsure. They always mess up with something, wish they took official rules seriously, because seriously, you cannot count on them being official. Not even mentioning how often the advertising is misleading and incomplete when official rules even are available.

Quote: Rigondeaux

It wasn't a casino. However when I lived in the bay area, there was a contest put on by the sf giants and some company.

it was similar to one of those half court shot contests except the person who was chosen would face former MLB pitcher Vida Blue. Their task would be to hit a home run out of the giant's ball park.

If you don't really know much about baseball, this is an impossible task for the vast majority of the population. I'd guess that way less than 1% of people could ever do it. It's like saying, " win this drawing and if you can bench press 400 pounds you'll get $50,000"

There were ads for it constantly so I was in a perpetual state of rage.

I posted about the number one company in the country which insures these types of contests. Iirc, he has been charged by many jurisdictions for fraud and selling unlicensed insurance. Usually even if someone "won", they never received the prize, red tape and excuses, denied almost all winners.

As I mentioned, there was a Thursday night entry which was a fantasy football pick. You had to pick a QB, two RBs, a TE, two WRs, a place kicker, and a team for defense. This was the first entry you could pick. I have zero idea how this works, it is nowhere in the rules, nor are the prizes you can win when you come back between 6 and 8 PM every Thursday. This might be a problem, the same picks might be set in stone for the whole contest. I know a few people that would miss work coming in for this that didn't expect it. Might be possible this portion of the contest is only on Thursdays to enter, unsure right now.

As to the entries, my friend only had three regular football entries and one fantasy pick. I had four plus the fantasy pick entry. That isn't making sense right now to me how this happened. Either my friend lost a regular entry copy my friend entered, or never had a fourth entry. I know my friend played about 800 points this week, at least 600 after September 5th. I was there with them, dont think they forfeited the entry.

Been told each entry is considered separately, seems to be the case, that you couldn't have known reading the official rules, which make little sense and are poorly written, never proofread. It seems to be a fair contest, could not have known by reading the rules.

I'm still so confused. Website says to enter Tuesday-Thursday at 5pm, very incorrect. You in fact can enter Tuesday 9am-Thursday at 5pm. Not sure if you can enter during the off hours between 9pm and 9am those days.

Another rule says you must claim Tuesday 9am-9pm. But then next sentence says winners older than 1 week will not be honored. I'm thinking they'll be able to claim the whole week, because the names have been above the kiosks all week. Feels like a logic bomb reading these things, blows my mind.