Interesting Slot Cheat Article
Use your phone to time the older Aristocrat slot machines for wins.
RNGesus
Quote: djatcI think I posted this before about how some video games, you can learn the RNG pattern, and by doing a certain sequence of button pressing, save/reloading, you can guarantee a rare item in a treasure chest. Somebody told me some advantage was to be gained by doing this on Pacman. I remember doing this to cause a certain rare event to happen in game as well.
The only "rare event" I can think of in Pac-Man is the "kill screen" - the game designer probably never expected anybody to get through level 255, so he saved the level number as an unsigned byte; as a result, when you get past level 255, the game thinks the next level is "level zero" and half the screen is garbage.
Of course, this assumes you are talking about the arcade version; it's possible that some ports may have some easter eggs hidden in them. (I know of three Atari 2600 games off the top of my head that have easter eggs - Adventure (there's a 1-pixel "dot" that's the same color as the background; if you can get it to a certain point, you can access a screen with the designer's name on it), Yars' Revenge (when you destroy the main ship, the "Ghost of Yars" appears, and it's possible to lock up the game with your score replaced by the designer's initials, forward and then backward), and Space Invaders (if you score zero on level 13 - not an easy feat, as you have to launch all 30 of your missiles without hitting anything - then the designer's initials appear in place of one of the cities at the end).)
"You must not open the following four chests from the
beginning of the game until reaching access to the
Necrohol Of Nabudis, where the spear resides:
1.The chest in front of Old Dalan’s place in Lowtown.
2.Once inside the palace in the Cellars, the left
chest in the southeast corner contains an elixir.
Do not open it. Or either just to be safe.
3.Once you’ve been captured and thrown in Nalbina
Dungeon, one of the chests looks slightly different
than the others. Do not open it. The other two chests
will contain a gambit and a Tourmaline Ring.
4.There are 16 chests on Phon Coast aligned in four
rows of four. One of these is the forbidden chest.
Do NOT open any of them, period."
It was the first one of it's kind where not opening certain chests in the game led you to getting the best weapon. There were more ways to manipulate the RNG in this game to get the best stat increases in a level up, or to force a certain item in a chest.
Quote: DRichhttps://www.wired.com/2017/02/russians-engineer-brilliant-slot-machine-cheat-casinos-no-fix/
Use your phone to time the older Aristocrat slot machines for wins.
This was very interesting as they are exploiting a PRNG weakness. Did they download every screen display outcome and develop a map of clumped winners so the buzzer would work? I wonder how much computing power it takes to efficiently run through every combination on the chip and develop a "map".
Quote: djatcIt might have been another game that came out in the 80's, but that's before my time so I don't remember the exact game. However there is an RNG glitch you can do in Final Fantasy XII.
"You must not open the following four chests from the
beginning of the game until reaching access to the
Necrohol Of Nabudis, where the spear resides:
1.The chest in front of Old Dalan’s place in Lowtown.
2.Once inside the palace in the Cellars, the left
chest in the southeast corner contains an elixir.
Do not open it. Or either just to be safe.
3.Once you’ve been captured and thrown in Nalbina
Dungeon, one of the chests looks slightly different
than the others. Do not open it. The other two chests
will contain a gambit and a Tourmaline Ring.
4.There are 16 chests on Phon Coast aligned in four
rows of four. One of these is the forbidden chest.
Do NOT open any of them, period."
It was the first one of it's kind where not opening certain chests in the game led you to getting the best weapon. There were more ways to manipulate the RNG in this game to get the best stat increases in a level up, or to force a certain item in a chest.
I once walked in on my brother doing some sort of double up game in one of the final fantasys.
Bet max to double up, Winner! Save.
Bet max to double up, Loser, power off, power on & try again.
Quote: ThatDonGuyThe only "rare event" I can think of in Pac-Man is the "kill screen" - the game designer probably never expected anybody to get through level 255, so he saved the level number as an unsigned byte; as a result, when you get past level 255, the game thinks the next level is "level zero" and half the screen is garbage.
I did this once! Was a long ass night. In the later versions of the game, they fixed that code, so it just went for infinity.
Quote: MoosetonI once walked in on my brother doing some sort of double up game in one of the final fantasys.
Bet max to double up, Winner! Save.
Bet max to double up, Loser, power off, power on & try again.
It's called save scumming. I would do the same if the game allowed it lol
Debatable... because gaming could say they were "altering the odds of chance" and thus "altering the outcome of the game" if they 'knew' when to hit the button for a winning spin.Quote: KeyserIf the Russians had been winning without the use of any kind of electronic device, then would they still have been charged with a crime?
Quote: KeyserIf the Russians had been winning without the use of any kind of electronic device, then would they still have been charged with a crime?
I don't think they could be held criminally liable, but just like in the Ivey case the casino could still sue to get their money back.
However if a search of his house found a slot machine with its software hacked i imagine they might try to press some form of illegal hacking of proprietary software charges
That's the trick... The house would have to prove they "knew" when to push the button which would show outside knowledge not accessible to everyone and thus be changing the elements of chance. Like DRich said, they might not be able to be criminally punished, but they certainly could be sued for the money back (re:See Phil Ivey case).Quote: darkozWithout use of a phone i dont see how they could even be sued. The video would show someone pausing to push the button and ge could say he was superstitious or thinking about his bills and whether he should continue playing or even hesitating to continue because he couldnt believe his luck would keep going
However if a search of his house found a slot machine with its software hacked i imagine they might try to press some form of illegal hacking of proprietary software charges
Quote: RomesThat's the trick... The house would have to prove they "knew" when to push the button which would show outside knowledge not accessible to everyone and thus be changing the elements of chance. Like DRich said, they might not be able to be criminally punished, but they certainly could be sued for the money back (re:See Phil Ivey case).
Im familiar with the phil ivey case. There are significant differences assuming no electronic device was used
I.e. what did they do different from other players. They pushed buttons in a funny timing.
Hmm that doesnt rise to convincing a dealer to flip cards so they can read the back of edges. That is a demonstrable effort to affect odds. Simply pushing a slot button periodically wouldnt rise to that level.
What if a patron discovered it by accident without hacking another model. "Your honor every time i counted to 48 in my head i seemed to win so i kept pushing the button after 48. It wss in my head so probably wasnt perfect time but hey i kept winning so why stop"
So i dont see how this russian case if done without an electronic device simply using his own mind to keep count could be compared
The underlying complaint was that they altered the element or chance. If someone hit the button at 48 seconds and 'always' won, then this would be a machine malfunction like any other. Sure, the player can sit and play all day, but the casino certainly could refuse to pay based on machine malfunction.Quote: darkozIt should be pointef out the phil ivey decision was that he changed the odds by essentially MARKING them through the use of rotating the cards to disti guish which cardd benefited him
So i dont see how this russian case if done without an electronic device simply using his own mind to keep count could be compared
An example of this is also the double up trick. It was just some guys hitting some buttons, but they figured out if they hit them in a certain sequence at a certain time that it changed the outcome. This is the same thing. The guy is hitting a button at a certain time and it changes the outcome.
Quote: RomesThe underlying complaint was that they altered the element or chance. If someone hit the button at 48 seconds and 'always' won, then this would be a machine malfunction like any other. Sure, the player can sit and play all day, but the casino certainly could refuse to pay based on machine malfunction.
An example of this is also the double up trick. It was just some guys hitting some buttons, but they figured out if they hit them in a certain sequence at a certain time that it changed the outcome. This is the same thing. The guy is hitting a button at a certain time and it changes the outcome.
Again i beg to differ. The double up similar to the phil ivey case required some physical action on the part of the casino. Turning cards in ivey case and enabling a double up option normally turned off
Simply sitting down and playing cannot be considered cheating regardless of what time interval you pick for depressing the button. Also note the article says the casinos are not pulling out and replacing the machines but letting them continue to operate as is. That alone refutes any allegation of machine malfunction. If the slots have a bug then they need to be fixed. That is not the situation here. Instead the slots are working per design. Just someone figured out how to beat them. Assuming you could do it purely by your own brainpower no electronic device that is
The double up feature was, and still is at some places, on by default. It required zero casino action for a lot of the double up feature glitch money. Sure some places they asked for the feature to be turned on, but I believe the majority of them were already on.Quote: darkozAgain i beg to differ. The double up similar to the phil ivey case required some physical action on the part of the casino. Turning cards in ivey case and enabling a double up option normally turned off
Being a programmer, anything that results in a non-desired outcome in a bug. This is definitely a bug. The article simply stated that it would take too much effort/money/whatever to pull and re-program the machines to use a different PRNG. Also, they're not just sitting down "and playing" as you put it. They're sitting down and pressing the button at a specific time to manipulate the outcome. "And playing" would mean they're just hitting the button randomly as most players do.Quote: darkozSimply sitting down and playing cannot be considered cheating regardless of what time interval you pick for depressing the button. Also note the article says the casinos are not pulling out and replacing the machines but letting them continue to operate as is. That alone refutes any allegation of machine malfunction. If the slots have a bug then they need to be fixed. That is not the situation here. Instead the slots are working per design. Just someone figured out how to beat them. Assuming you could do it purely by your own brainpower no electronic device that is
Quote: darkoz
Simply sitting down and playing cannot be considered cheating regardless of what time interval you pick for depressing the button.
I think that is the disconnect. It doesn't have to be someone cheating for it not to be a fair game. A judge could rule that it is not fair even if it was the casinos fault that it wasn't fair and the judge could still demand the money returned. As someone else pointed out that is pretty much why slot machines have a disclaimer that malfunctions void all pays.
Besides, if that's the case, then are skilled poker players changing the element of chance on the poker machines? How about the bonus hunters and progressive slot players?
Quote: AxelWolfRereading the .25 second timing, couldn't you just wait for a string of winners. Even if you misses the payout you were looking for, Perhaps the machine had 3 winners back to back within .75 seconds?
Axel,
We think alike. Perhaps play until you have a reasonable win, begin a count and continue counting until you hit another reasonable win. Next determine the time in between the two wins and repeat. It's a long shot, but maybe.
I always assumed that the machine made millions of decisions per second. I also assumed that the buttons used to trigger a bet had a pause, or rng like function that prevented any kind of rhythm tracking of the machine.
Quote: DRichI think that is the disconnect. It doesn't have to be someone cheating for it not to be a fair game. A judge could rule that it is not fair even if it was the casinos fault that it wasn't fair and the judge could still demand the money returned. As someone else pointed out that is pretty much why slot machines have a disclaimer that malfunctions void all pays.
Any competent attorney would proceed with
"So this quote malfunction occurs on a regular basis and only if someone depresses the button at a specific time but you continue to allow the endlessly repeating malfunction to continue without fixing. Oh and this particular malfunction occurs on multiple machines different titles in different casinos worldwide and thr machine gives no notice of malfunction to either the player or casino except through a separate audit and that is your definition of a malfunction?"
If it were me i would definitely let a jury decide that one. Lets see how the average person agrees with that
Edit: obviously i was not quoting in true lawyer speak for those anal minded people on here
To prevent others from deconstructing the PRNG input algorithms recent models are having encryption built into the chip.
I have to give the Russian team credit though - deconstructing a RNG algorithm from slots salvaged in the Russian casino shut down is a pretty innovative idea.
(1) Awful use of PRNG. In some scientific studies, artifacts of bad PNRGs caused problems. Two identical machines started at the exact same microsecond with the same seed (or seeds) should have some inputs (user behavior, line voltage variation, circuit temperature, etc...) which cause their performance to be different.
Of course, this might cause havoc any checking-routines which try to verify that a slot machine was supposed to hit X at time Y.
(2) Casinos are a business, trying to make money. Duh.
I fail to see the stupidity of APs who try to argue the theoretical or legal right-or-wrong on certain strategies.
Sometimes due to advertising realities, businesses honor "gaffes" and "mistakes".
...but it's a business/legal decision.
For example, if an airline offers a $0 fare NYC to Rome by accident (and publishes it to Orbitz, Travelocity, etc...),
they honor the fare & chalk it up as a marketing cost.
Why? Because (a) they have contracts to honor published fares, and they might get blacklisted by Orbitz.
(b) the negative publicity of not honoring a fare is huge
The big airlines already learned this lesson. About 8 years ago, a smaller airline tried to void all the $0 tickets.
Public backlash was so bad that they reversed their decision within a month or so.
(3) Imagine bank software has a glitch where they mistakenly credit your account with $10 million. Are you allowed to keep the money?
Same question, but they credit your account with an extra $100 every time you press a certain button combination on the ATM.
My American Express account got credited $2,000-3,000 with someone else's payment once.
And another account claimed that they didn't receive my $1,600 payment. Only time I had to send someone a copy of a cancelled check.
Whether or not a casino needs to honor XYZ event is a regulatory/legal/business decision which may or may not match what people think is ethically right, or what an AP/ploppy player would like.
It's strange that only now this is beginning to be discussed, then what is written about with the article, we first encountered this race even earlier than in 2010
And this method is already considered to be old:) there are already newer versions ...
This is a serious problem for the European region, since even people who use this method will be caught not by the police. They do not interfere with the algorithm but predict the event ...
Apparently, American justice protects private business more than in Europe, if it turns out to be brought to justice
Found a reference in LVRJ but only got a 'page no longer exists' when I went to look for it.
Will get on to this as soon as a I wake up this morning. Coffee ain't ready yet.
I've always thought that pure randomness was no more necessary than a pure wing was necessary on an airplane or pure water was needed in a hospital operating room. Real world wings have nicks, scratches and insect debris. Real world triple-filtered pure water has bacteria in it.
RNG is supposed to be 'random enough'
Why is this? This is a very good way to force the casino to update the equipment, as soon as a new hole is revealed, the producer says: oops, forgive me, the old version is removed from the line, buy a new one ..
Random enough was what the Germans thought of the Enigma machine. After all, sixty billion possibilities was surely more than British decoders could deal with, but it was not too much for the Britsh women at Bletchley Park, particularly when such factors as laziness of an operator and exhaustion of an operator were factored into the equation.
This guy injected an entire program for Flappy Bird into Super Mario world by setting memory values with certain combinations of input:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6eY73sLV0
Quote: FleaStiffI just encountered this thread... will read the article ASAP.
Found a reference in LVRJ but only got a 'page no longer exists' when I went to look for it.
Will get on to this as soon as a I wake up this morning. Coffee ain't ready yet.
I've always thought that pure randomness was no more necessary than a pure wing was necessary on an airplane or pure water was needed in a hospital operating room. Real world wings have nicks, scratches and insect debris. Real world triple-filtered pure water has bacteria in it.
RNG is supposed to be 'random enough'
Here is a great video on PRNGs. Has some good visualizations that get the point across and explained for the average person:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtOt7EBNEwQ
It's only illegal because an external device is being used to signal, since there's no way a human could time it on their own.
On the old EM slots, before the variator was put in, people could time the pulls to get small wins regularly. This was not cheating.
The law against "pulling the handle in an unusual way" refers to a different trick. By pulling slow, then yanking fast at the right point in the pull, you could damage the mechanism, and get a win stuck. it would then win on every pull of the handle. That IS cheating.
Do you know of anyone who ever got in leagal trouble for handle-popping?Quote: Zaphod77Yes, this is Rhythm Method V2.
It's only illegal because an external device is being used to signal, since there's no way a human could time it on their own.
On the old EM slots, before the variator was put in, people could time the pulls to get small wins regularly. This was not cheating.
The law against "pulling the handle in an unusual way" refers to a different trick. By pulling slow, then yanking fast at the right point in the pull, you could damage the mechanism, and get a win stuck. it would then win on every pull of the handle. That IS cheating.
From what I understand even after they put the Variators in some would break and one could continue to rhythm play.
I know a guy who was around during this era and he was good at Rhythm play, he made good money.
He went on to AP Slots and VP very successfully.
Do you know of anyone who ever got in leagal trouble for handle-popping?Quote: Zaphod77Yes, this is Rhythm Method V2.
It's only illegal because an external device is being used to signal, since there's no way a human could time it on their own.
On the old EM slots, before the variator was put in, people could time the pulls to get small wins regularly. This was not cheating.
The law against "pulling the handle in an unusual way" refers to a different trick. By pulling slow, then yanking fast at the right point in the pull, you could damage the mechanism, and get a win stuck. it would then win on every pull of the handle. That IS cheating.
From what I understand even after they put the Variators in some would break and one could continue to rhythm play.
I know a guy who was around during this era and he was good at Rhythm play, he made good money.
He went on to AP Slots and VP very successfully.
the pull-down damages the machine. read about it in a how to cheat slots book. and i'm completely sure the law against pulling the handle in a non standard way has to be about that trick, since rhythm method was a normal pull.
of course APing video poker is not illegal in any way. and gives small enough of an edge and still requires hitting those royals that the casinos don't care. seeing someone win lest you think you can too.
