IGT slot - not all reels are created equal
In the youtube above the 'american casino guide' describes an IGT slot that pays 1000 on line 1, and pays 2500 on line 2. Hence the return to player is better if you played 2 lines than 1. I think this is true in most cases, but it is not guaranteed.
At my local casino there is a similar machine by IGT (maybe 7 years old). I suspect the reels are different if you play 1 line vs 2 line; such that the return to player is the same whether you play 1 or 2 lines. Even if the pay table is non linear, and line 2 pays more than line 1. I looked up the gaming regulations in my state and cannot find a clause prohibiting such a design.
In early mornings the machines are serviced by casino staff, on the main audit screen the RTP is displayed.
There are a lot IGT slots in the casino. Some slots clearly states in the game rules that different reels are used depend on the the number of lines and credits per line. It seems to suggest better RTP if you bet more per spin. For these machines, the audit screen displays a list of RTP figures.
But for the machine above, only 1 RTP figure is displayed. So the only way for it to have same RTP regardless of playing 1 line or 2 lines is to have different reels?
I found out another sneaky thing IGT did. The reels for free games are different from base game...
In some slot games it is clear that feature game reels are different from base game, like more wilds, low value symbols are removed, etc... But in this particular IGT game the free game feature is plain, just free spins. The reason I conclude the reels are different is based on a particular win: a 3 scatter win, which occurs about once every 150 spins in base game. I have played this game enough to have 3000+ free spins, I am yet to have a 3 scatter win (which is possible according to the rules).
Another thing IGT did was changing reels based on the number of credits bet; even if the rules don't suggest that is happening. This one is not too sneaky; it is clear to me the reels might be different.
But to a casual gambler I think they will be surprised it is essential 2 different set of reels when better 1 credit or 2 credit.
As for the lack of scatters in the free spin mode, well that depends on how the game works. Symbols can be removed or made less likely to appear if they choose to in bonus games, although they typically don't remove "good" symbols from bonus games. Hard to say without more details. It is slightly possible you've run hot with scatters in the base game (1 in 150 sounds above average for a 3 scatter pay), and terribly cold in the free games. At least some scatter symbols appear during free games right?
Quote: tringlomaneif you mean this at the 2:15 mark...there is no 2nd line. The higher payback is due to the bigger payout of the 2nd coin.
yes, at 2.15
Sorry about the 2nd line vs 2nd coin mistake, but the point is the same.
Quote: tringlomaneIt is slightly possible you've run hot with scatters in the base game (1 in 150 sounds above average for a 3 scatter pay), and terribly cold in the free games.
I haven't done the math. But I think it is more than a million to 1 chance if the reels are not swapped.
Quote: tringlomaneAt least some scatter symbols appear during free games right?
yes.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13The outcome is determined at the push of the spin button, not by random stopping points of each real ... ... ... ... The game is going to pay you a pre-determined amount decided prior to the free spins. The spins and symbols are just animations for entertainment purposes.
really? That is completely opposite to my understanding. You claim it is so for free games; what about base games?
My understanding is each reel is randomly and independently spun. The machines does not first decide what final prize should be, and then spun the reels to particular location to show that payoff.
If a machine allows 50 lines play then the total possible outcome is in thousands if not millions. I cannot imaging the programmer code in thousands of prize level with their corresponding probably of occurring. And then you need a clever algorithm of finding that reel animation which matches the prize size. Unless there is really say 100 possible out come for 50 lines play internally, and each time your press spin the machines chooses 1 of the 100 possible outcome...
Quote: supergrassreally? That is completely opposite to my understanding. You claim it is so for free games; what about base games?
My understanding is each reel is randomly and independently spun. The machines does not first decide what final prize should be, and then spun the reels to particular location to show that payoff.
If a machine allows 50 lines play then the total possible outcome is in thousands if not millions. I cannot imaging the programmer code in thousands of prize level with their corresponding probably of occurring. And then you need a clever algorithm of finding that reel animation which matches the prize size. Unless there is really say 100 possible out come for 50 lines play internally, and each time your press spin the machines chooses 1 of the 100 possible outcome...
Most "free spin" mechanisms are not predetermined to my knowledge, which is mostly based on reading what other people who have worked for companies like IGT wrote.
The actual spinning animation may not necessarily be the same image order as the game reels though. The animation part of the spin is unimportant other than drawing the player into further addiction to the machine of course...haha The game's payback depends on the symbol frequencies when the reel stops.
Quote: supergrassMy understanding is each reel is randomly and independently spun. The machines does not first decide what final prize should be, and then spun the reels to particular location to show that payoff.
Correct, but ever since the reels have been controlled by random number generators rather than physical timers, "the outcome is determined at the push of the spin button" and "each reel is randomly and independently spun" are the same thing.
Example: suppose you have a machine with 3 reels, 10 symbols on each reel, and each symbol on a reel has an equal chance of showing up. Now, when you push the Spin button, a number from 000 to 999 is generated.
The hundreds digit is the symbol that shows up on the first reel; the tens digit is the symbol that shows up on the second reel, the ones digit is the symbol that shows up on the third reel. On any particular reel, the probability of a particular symbol showing up is independent of what shows up on the other two reels, and is random - but the result (and the prize) was generated when you pushed the Spin button.
but what about bonus round set up where you pick a mystery prize or symbol?Quote: tringlomaneMost "free spin" mechanisms are not predetermined to my knowledge, which is mostly based on reading what other people who have worked for companies like IGT wrote.
.
I believe they are predetermined. Why think the spin feature is different?
Quote: AxelWolfbut what about bonus round set up where you pick a mystery prize or symbol?
I believe they are predetermined. Why think the spin feature is different?
I was under the impression those generally weren't predetermined. The prize amounts to choose from are predetermined, but your choice matters for your result. Either method is legal in Nevada though for pick bonuses. Class II jurisdictions MUST be predetermined obviously. Hopefully DRich and others w/experience in slot design can expand on this.
Quote: tringlomaneI was under the impression those generally weren't predetermined. The prize amounts to choose from are predetermined, but your choice matters for your result. Either method is legal in Nevada though for pick bonuses. Class II jurisdictions MUST be predetermined obviously. Hopefully DRich and others w/experience in slot design can expand on this.
Tringlomane is correct. The majority are not predetermined. On a pick bonus, if after you make your selections it shows you the values of the ones you didn't pick, it is not predetermined. Basically, if it is predetermined they are not allowed to show you the other values because you never could have got them.
Quote: DRichTringlomane is correct. The majority are not predetermined. On a pick bonus, if after you make your selections it shows you the values of the ones you didn't pick, it is not predetermined. Basically, if it is predetermined they are not allowed to show you the other values because you never could have got them.
Yes, on bonuses like that, no pre-determination. Deal or No Deal for example is not pre-determined. But in modern games almost everything else is.
People think stopping the reels or taking their player card out or cashing out credits and re-inserting bills or anything else changed what will happen. It doesn't The reals do not stop randomly based on the symbols on the reals. They stop at pre-determined spots that were chosen randomly the millisecond you pushed the spin button.
When you almost miss a win or jackpot, it's not because the reel almost stopped there. It's because the pre-determined reel pattern to show if you won or lost was purposely animated or set up to make it look like you just missed.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13But in modern games almost everything else is.
ZCore13
I guess i am not understanding your point. If you are saying that reel stop positions are predetermined before they visually stop, you are 100% correct. I am not sure what else you think is regularly predetermined.
Quote: DRichI guess i am not understanding your point. If you are saying that reel stop positions are predetermined before they visually stop, you are 100% correct. I am not sure what else you think is regularly predetermined.
That's all. The OP was under the impression that the reels stop based on the number of specific symbols on the reels and the odds of those showing up based on the percentage of them to other symbols. He said:
Quote: supergrassreally? That is completely opposite to my understanding. You claim it is so for free games; what about base games?
My understanding is each reel is randomly and independently spun. The machines does not first decide what final prize should be, and then spun the reels to particular location to show that payoff.
If a machine allows 50 lines play then the total possible outcome is in thousands if not millions. I cannot imaging the programmer code in thousands of prize level with their corresponding probably of occurring. And then you need a clever algorithm of finding that reel animation which matches the prize size. Unless there is really say 100 possible out come for 50 lines play internally, and each time your press spin the machines chooses 1 of the 100 possible outcome...
Lots of slot players think they are watching the reels stop randomly with no other control other than that of spinning the big wheel on the Price is Right. And if they "just miss" it was so close to a win because the reel just had to have enough energy to move one more notch.
ZCore13
We have IGT machines, and others, in the UK. My understanding is that the machine knows the value of the free spins/feature at the start.Quote: tringlomaneMost "free spin" mechanisms are not predetermined to my knowledge...
This is based on one time I was betting 13p and even though all wins were a multiple of 5p, somehow managed to win 78p in a feature. The casino made enquiries and I was told, for that machine, it was a pre-determined multiple of the original bet.
Quote: charliepatrickWe have IGT machines, and others, in the UK. My understanding is that the machine knows the value of the free spins/feature at the start.
This is based on one time I was betting 13p and even though all wins were a multiple of 5p, somehow managed to win 78p in a feature. The casino made enquiries and I was told, for that machine, it was a pre-determined multiple of the original bet.
many do know the win value at the start. Some where players select options during the bonus are not pre-determined.
ZCore13
Quote: onenickelmiracleSome slots would have no listed limits for bonus triggers within bonuses and no spin limits. Secret limits or whatever, how did these games work? Now most machines have limits and possibly too low to be fair/decent, but how could a PAR sheet even accurately show a bonus without limit or show a limit which shouldn't be there?
I exploit one video line game where it is stated on one of the game rules screens that each free game is worth an average of 7.13 times the bet.
Quote: tringlomaneI was under the impression those generally weren't predetermined. The prize amounts to choose from are predetermined, but your choice matters for your result. Either method is legal in Nevada though for pick bonuses. Class II jurisdictions MUST be predetermined obviously. Hopefully DRich and others w/experience in slot design can expand on this.
Admittedly this was in an indian casino and proves nothing.....
Years ago I played an IGT game that was both in Vegas and this indian casino. I couldn't find out where they offered this game in a lower class.
They didn't use cash or tickets in the machines it was on a card system that transferred your wins on and off the card. If you entered a bonus round and waited to pick your prize, pulled your card out put it in a different machine and checked you balance the prize amount was automatically added before you made you picks.
And NO you couldn't use the credits on the second machine finish the bonus round and get repaid.
Fast forward years after. A Casino had a promotion where you received a automatic bonus for a specific amount hit. I entered a bonus round but hadn't picked my prize.
I put a second card into the machine next to me and my promotion bonus was added prior to completing the slot bonus game. HOW DID IT KNOW? Sure enough my picks were good enough to receive a promotion bonus. I did this a few times to confirm.
I guess there could have been a glitch in the system and it was mistakenly adding a bonus to my account for a different reason.
There are some other examples I won't get into. But i'm convinced some do and some don't.
