FreePlay Monetization on Slots
I would assume:
1. Choose a low-volatility machine
2. Make your bet on the "lower side"
Does anyone have any favorite machines they've been fairly successful at doing this on?
1. Aim for par value. Play a machine that (without freeplay) mostly holds the balance even (low volatility).
2. Aim for the moon. Play a machine that occasionally, but not so often as to be rare, pays a big bonus ("big" meaning 200x wager or better).
If using the second strategy, and you hit the bonus early in the freeplay, switch machines, and possibly switch to the first strategy. This is pure superstition, of course, but I don't see a lot of big dollar back-to-back bonuses.
I usually aim for 75c-$1 a spin for $100 free play, on either strategy. I aim for around 25c-60c a spin for $20-$40 freeplay. I don't know that the math backs this up, but it "works for me".
Quote: DieterTwo strategies I'm aware of:
1. Aim for par value. Play a machine that (without freeplay) mostly holds the balance even (low volatility).
2. Aim for the moon. Play a machine that occasionally, but not so often as to be rare, pays a big bonus ("big" meaning 200x wager or better).
If using the second strategy, and you hit the bonus early in the freeplay, switch machines, and possibly switch to the first strategy. This is pure superstition, of course, but I don't see a lot of big dollar back-to-back bonuses.
I usually aim for 75c-$1 a spin for $100 free play, on either strategy. I aim for around 25c-60c a spin for $20-$40 freeplay. I don't know that the math backs this up, but it "works for me".
Thanks- I aimed for the moon and was lucky enough to land on the moon for a portion of this month's play, so thought I'd spend the rest of the month just working to monetize. Any favorite machines for strategy #1?
Quote: BTLWII would choose a strategy based on how much the offer is. If it's something small like $10 or $20 I mostly wouldn't care about getting my "85%" of that back. I'd rather go for the bigger bucks and 1 out of every 6 sessions leave a $100 winner than go home with $15 6 times.
I tend to agree, although in my case at least for this month, the offers are a bit higher, so it wouldn't be insignificant to just monetize as best as I can.
Quote: TheBigPaybakAny favorite machines for strategy #1?
Yeah, but you already said they don't offer video poker...
If they have an electronic roulette machine, and you can use your freeplay on it, and you can place a cancellation bet... (If you can't use your freeplay on it, but need just a few extra points to get into a promotion... also a useful play.)
Otherwise, I've had reasonable luck on some of the lower-denomination Bally machines (30x3=90c/spin Quick Hits; Penny Frenzy). A friend of mine swears by Turkey Shoot (old 15 line, IGT), but I think the variance is too high for strategy 1 - on a low amount of freeplay, I don't think you get enough spins in to expect a bonus. Same goes for Phone Tag, Wild Taxi, and other similar vintage IGT 15 machines.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI just play the machine with the best payback. If I had an extremely large amount of freeplay (like, if I won $100k freeplay in a slot tournament) then I would start to worry about variance. But, for $100? The reduced volatility is worth almost nothing.
As I understand it, don't most casinos have a uniform payback they set their machines to? (At some casinos you may see "special" machines advertising 98% payback or something like that, but none exist at the particular racino in question).
That said, slots vary wildly based on volatility- so I tend to disagree that if the goal is to monetize a finite amount- then reduced volatility is key to give yourself the best chance to do so over each session.
Quote: TheBigPaybakAs I understand it, don't most casinos have a uniform payback they set their machines to?
I don't think so. They may all be within a few percent of each other. But that few percent is significant, IMO.
Quote:That said, slots vary wildly based on volatility- so I tend to disagree that if the goal is to monetize a finite amount- then reduced volatility is key to give yourself the best chance to do so over each session.
But why are you concerned with giving yourself the best chance of doing so over each session? Wouldn't it make more sense to be concerned about ending up with the most money at the end of the year?
I've never played in a place where I couldn't use my freeplay on VP, and I just have always picked the VP game with the highest payout. This has often been 9/7 TDB, which has extremely high variance.
I would generally only worry about volatility if the amount of the freeplay is a life-changing amount. Of course, that amount is different for everyone.
Quote: TheBigPaybakdon't most casinos have a uniform payback they set their machines to?
To deliver 90% payout, you can either pay 90c on every $1 coin-in (realistically: $5 win every* $15 or so, plus the usual small change stuff), or $90 on every $100 coin-in, or $900 on every $1000 coin-in, or some completely different scheme that works out the same way.
The lower volatility ones work better on less free play - many small wins. The higher volatility machines have better potential with more free play, since you have more chances to trip "the big one" (but you might miss, too).
No casino I know of sets all their machines to the same payback rate, and I expect the higher denomination machines to be generally a higher payback rate.
Heck, I see different paytables for the same video poker game on the same machine at different denominations.
I forgot to ask - are you fighting Class II or VLT's for your free play? I find Class II requires a different tactic for getting the money out.
They usually have interesting things to talk about with anyone who will listen, too.
Quote: DieterTo deliver 90% payout, you can either pay 90c on every $1 coin-in (realistically: $5 win every* $15 or so, plus the usual small change stuff), or $90 on every $100 coin-in, or $900 on every $1000 coin-in, or some completely different scheme that works out the same way.
The lower volatility ones work better on less free play - many small wins. The higher volatility machines have better potential with more free play, since you have more chances to trip "the big one" (but you might miss, too).
No casino I know of sets all their machines to the same payback rate, and I expect the higher denomination machines to be generally a higher payback rate.
Heck, I see different paytables for the same video poker game on the same machine at different denominations.
I forgot to ask - are you fighting Class II or VLT's for your free play? I find Class II requires a different tactic for getting the money out.
As I understand it, they machines are VLTs that are basically "regular" slot machines like those in Vegas.
Yes, higher-denom machines are generally higher payback rate: I should have said that I thought casinos set their particular slot denomination machines to the same payback percentage.
Quote: DieterI should also mention that the best technique I've found for locating low volatility machines is to look for a gaggle of chain smoking little old ladies who are playing constantly, but only rarely pulling money from their purses. They've got it figured out, just do what they do.
They usually have interesting things to talk about with anyone who will listen, too.
Hah! The chain-smoking-old-lady technique!
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
But why are you concerned with giving yourself the best chance of doing so over each session? Wouldn't it make more sense to be concerned about ending up with the most money at the end of the year?
I've never played in a place where I couldn't use my freeplay on VP, and I just have always picked the VP game with the highest payout. This has often been 9/7 TDB, which has extremely high variance.
I would generally only worry about volatility if the amount of the freeplay is a life-changing amount. Of course, that amount is different for everyone.
Well, I'm not sure if my FreePlay will be consistent over the course of the year, so I'd rather monetize what I have now, especially because I already hit a decent jackpot by taking my shot early on. So instead of trying to hit another one and engage in a high volatility approach, I thought I'd go the other route, if that makes sense.
Quote: TheBigPaybakWell, I'm not sure if my FreePlay will be consistent over the course of the year, so I'd rather monetize what I have now, especially because I already hit a decent jackpot by taking my shot early on. So instead of trying to hit another one and engage in a high volatility approach, I thought I'd go the other route, if that makes sense.
Not really. The fact that you hit a jackpot is great (congrats!), but seemingly irrelevant. I don't see why you wouldn't just take the max-EV approach.
Do you have any idea which machines pay back the most?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceNot really. The fact that you hit a jackpot is great (congrats!), but seemingly irrelevant. I don't see why you wouldn't just take the max-EV approach.
Do you have any idea which machines pay back the most?
I have to assume the higher-denomination ones.
I guess I look at it this way: For example, say I have 5k in FreePlay this month but only $500 next month and max-EV is to play high-limit slots where I could make a killing or essentially bust out. Assume their payback percentage is 95% versus 90% for lesser denomination machines. Frankly I'd rather take the approach to get me closest to $4500 with a great chance, versus what would occur with the higher EV play using the higher-limit machines. Yes, over time, those might be the better play, but I'd rather have a greater chance to get back the value versus the chance of making more in the short term or potentially busting out.
Quote: TheBigPaybakAs I understand it, they machines are VLTs that are basically "regular" slot machines like those in Vegas.
VLTs are absolutely not like "regular" slot machines.
Check for a sign on the main entrance for a VLT disclaimer. ("While these look like slot machines, these are actually Video Lottery Terminals...")
I have no direct experience with VLT's, sorry. I do have some experience with Bingo slots (Class II). I know that with Bingo slots, the time of day - or more specifically, the number of other people present and playing - seems to change the frequency of the "good wins". (Too empty - bad. Too full - bad. 1/3 to 5/8 full - sweet spot, look for the chain smoking ladies. Your Mileage May Vary.)
I'm not sure if changing bet size changes which pool your game is in (or not), but again, listen to the CSL's - they may be on to something if they say that they win more playing 50c a spin than $1 a spin.
Quote: DieterVLTs are absolutely not like "regular" slot machines.
Check for a sign on the main entrance for a VLT disclaimer. ("While these look like slot machines, these are actually Video Lottery Terminals...")
I have no direct experience with VLT's, sorry. I do have some experience with Bingo slots (Class II). I know that with Bingo slots, the time of day - or more specifically, the number of other people present and playing - seems to change the frequency of the "good wins". (Too empty - bad. Too full - bad. 1/3 to 5/8 full - sweet spot, look for the chain smoking ladies. Your Mileage May Vary.)
I'm not sure if changing bet size changes which pool your game is in (or not), but again, listen to the CSL's - they may be on to something if they say that they win more playing 50c a spin than $1 a spin.
Just to be clear, while they call them "VLTs" it appears just to be for name only: tringlomane had a great write-up about this on my "Kentucky Derby and VLTs" blog post when I was unsure what type they had myself.
Quote: TheBigPaybakthey call them "VLTs" it appears just to be for name only
There is a fundamental difference in how the win is determined in a "regular" slot machine vs a bingo slot machine vs an electronic pull-tab machine.
That doesn't mean you can't win, but your quest for low-volatility may be wise.... particularly if the machines are grouped into different pools. (A low volatility pool is ideal for consistent monetization of the free play, then.)
I know on the bingo machines, they explain how the win is calculated (buried in a menu, after they explain how the win is displayed on the reels). Is there something similar for your VLT's?
As I read it, the GLI-11 standard does not say that each machine has to have its own RNG. Section 2.18 specifically mentions "central determined" games.
My understanding is that these are still electronic pull tab type machines. A pull tab is randomly selected from the pool, the win value is determined, and the "entertainment portion" of the game begins, where the reels are set to display the win (usually with noises and flashing lights).
I still think you want to follow the lead of the chain smoking ladies.
Quote: DieterI had a look at the blog post, and the reply, and the GLI-11 standard.
As I read it, the GLI-11 standard does not say that each machine has to have its own RNG. Section 2.18 specifically mentions "central determined" games.
My understanding is that these are still electronic pull tab type machines. A pull tab is randomly selected from the pool, the win value is determined, and the "entertainment portion" of the game begins, where the reels are set to display the win (usually with noises and flashing lights).
I still think you want to follow the lead of the chain smoking ladies.
Hmmm- I guess I should look into it further: I can say that these VLTs are nothing like any other VLTs I've played, with the Bingo graphic and the occasional "end of play" payout, etc.
Quote: DieterI had a look at the blog post, and the reply, and the GLI-11 standard.
As I read it, the GLI-11 standard does not say that each machine has to have its own RNG. Section 2.18 specifically mentions "central determined" games.
My understanding is that these are still electronic pull tab type machines. A pull tab is randomly selected from the pool, the win value is determined, and the "entertainment portion" of the game begins, where the reels are set to display the win (usually with noises and flashing lights).
I still think you want to follow the lead of the chain smoking ladies.
This is incorrect in Ohio, VLTs at racinos behave exactly like Vegas slot machines in terms of game play. They are just managed by the state lottery, hence using the name VLT (Video Lottery Terminal). Ohio VLTs must adhere to nearly ALL of GLI-11, plus require a 85% return minimum. The most important sections to uphold this in GLI-11 are 3.3.1 a) and 3.3.7.
Laziest law writing ever by Ohio: http://www.ohiolottery.com/assets/vlt/Racetracks/Video_Lottery_Terminal_standards-4-1-14
Quote: GLI-113.3.1 Game Selection Process.
a) All Combinations and Outcomes Shall Be Available. Each possible permutation or
combination of game elements that produces winning or losing game outcomes shall be
available for random selection at the initiation of each play, unless otherwise denoted by
the game;
3.3.7 Symbol Probability. For game types (such as spinning reel games or video spinning reel
games), unless otherwise denoted on the payglass, the mathematical probability of a symbol
appearing in a position for any game outcome shall be constant.
Even if Ohio games were centrally determined from a large pool of prizes like NY racinos for example, it really wouldn't matter much anyway. You probably want to use the "chain-smoking old ladies" variance test either way...lol
That doesn't really meet the definition of "VLT" for me, where I would expect multiple players on a single game ("pool").
I am curious about the screen displays on these VLT's - there's a magic phrase that piques concern.
Quote: GL113.3.1 Game Selection Process.
a) All Combinations and Outcomes Shall Be Available. Each possible permutation or
combination of game elements that produces winning or losing game outcomes shall be
available for random selection at the initiation of each play, unless otherwise denoted by
the game;
I don't see that it says "you can't have a centrally determined game". As I read it, you could have a new central game pool a hundred times a second, and players pressing spin just join the next pool (with all outcomes randomly available).
Of course, like all slots, you stick in money, you hit the button, and maybe you get some money back. So maybe it is the same.
Virtual pull tab standard (GLI-14):
http://www.gaminglabs.com/downloads/GLI%20Standards/Bill%20E%202011/GLI-14%20v2.2%20Standard.pdf
And to cover all bases, let's not forget the standards for electronic bingo (GLI-15):
http://www.gaminglabs.com/downloads/GLI%20Standards/updated%20Standards/GLI-15%20v1.3.pdf
For what it's worth, Illinois's video gaming terminals in bars/restaurants/truck stops (not run by the lottery; started in 2012) have a central communication system for accounting purposes, but have RNG-driven games just like Vegas.
State laws in recent years have been way more permissive of "Vegas Style" slots/video poker. New York may be the last state that passed a gaming law that did not permit "Vegas Style" slots/video poker for a gaming expansion.
Quote: tringlomaneTrue that last sentence does give an out for things possibly determined by a pool of outcomes. But then 3.3.7 becomes a problem since virtual pool tabs are run without immediate replacement.
If the nature of the game is clearly disclaimed - as it is on the entrance of my local Class II gaming facility ("The game being played is bingo, other displays are for entertainment only") and on the machines ("Prize awards based on bingo results"), then 3.3.7 doesn't apply. The reel displays are not part of the game, they're part of the entertainment display.
It's conceivable that the pull tab pool wouldn't be sold out every cycle, but then I have no idea how the racinos would all seem to hit the same returns every month. (My quick survey of the reports shows 91%, straight down the line.)
Quote: tringlomaneOhio should have referenced that if their machines behaved similarly.
Agreed.
Is there an "Award #" or "Game #" (or similar) serial displayed in fine print on the screen of these VLT's? Even if not specifically referenced in the Ohio rules, they're mentioned in GLI14 and GLI15. (Their absence might not prove anything, but their presence should.)
Quote: DieterIs there an "Award #" or "Game #" (or similar) serial displayed in fine print on the screen of these VLT's? Even if not specifically referenced in the Ohio rules, they're mentioned in GLI14 and GLI15. (Their absence might not prove anything, but their presence should.)
Not that I ever recall seeing, but I'll look the next time I go and post if I do spot one. But I'd say it's likely that I will not spot this information.
Quote: DieterIf the nature of the game is clearly disclaimed - as it is on the entrance of my local Class II gaming facility ("The game being played is bingo, other displays are for entertainment only") and on the machines ("Prize awards based on bingo results"), then 3.3.7 doesn't apply. The reel displays are not part of the game, they're part of the entertainment display.
Right, but that facility also probably doesn't explicitly say, "our games follow the GLI-11 standard" like Ohio racinos do. GLI-11 was written with states allowing "Vegas Style" games in mind. Which is why they also wrote GLI-14 and 15 for the other types of games we're discussing.
Ironically my first slot "jackpot" came on a "Texas Tea" electronic bingo machine in Alabama. What I technically hit was some random pattern of 22 hits in 48 calls or so (i don't exactly remember), but the main display showed 5 Texas Tea symbols for 10,000 credits. $200 since I know slots/electronic bingo sucks slash I'm cheap.
If you're a VP player, I'm sorry if class II is all that's by you. Holding garbage in VP to make the "genie" show up is only fun for so long...lol
Quote: tringlomaneEven if Ohio games were centrally determined from a large pool of prizes like NY racinos for example, it really wouldn't matter much anyway. You probably want to use the "chain-smoking old ladies" variance test either way...lol
It's probably worth pointing out that games which are centrally determined from a large pool of prizes lowers the variance over multiple spins (the larger the pool, the smaller the effect)
Since the goal of many of the posters on this thread seems to be to reduce variance, it seems counter-productive to avoid these.
Quote: tringlomaneIf you're a VP player, I'm sorry if class II is all that's by you. Holding garbage in VP to make the "genie" show up is only fun for so long...lol
No Class II "VP" for me. The place that's 10 minutes away is Class II (no "VP", thankfully), but there's a Class III tribal with tables an hour the other direction (and a Class III with better - but crowded - tables an hour farther).
Knowing that they say "GLI-11 standard" is a big cue, even if Ohio 3770:2-10-60 is pretty broad in what it will allow ("approved by resolution of 5 commissioners").
Gaming laws are bizarre and artificially complicated. :/
Quote: DieterNo Class II "VP" for me. The place that's 10 minutes away is Class II (no "VP", thankfully), but there's a Class III tribal with tables an hour the other direction (and a Class III with better - but crowded - tables an hour farther).
Knowing that they say "GLI-11 standard" is a big cue, even if Ohio 3770:2-10-60 is pretty broad in what it will allow ("approved by resolution of 5 commissioners").
Gaming laws are bizarre and artificially complicated. :/
Yeah the original state law definitely allowed for multiple gaming methods as long as prizes were randomly distributed. The Ohio lottery didn't have to follow GLI-11, they chose to follow it. For doing so, I commend the Ohio lottery.
For an example of clearer state gaming laws, PA is a good choice.
