Par sheet for 98% $1 Blazing 7's progressive?
Highest return listed on the arcade site is 97%.
Also, is it worth it to put in the 3rd coin if the progressive is near reset ($1000)?
2nd coin = $500
3rd coin = progressive
Seems to keep variance low to stick to 2coins?
Quote: 100xOddsCasino is advertising 98% but I can't find any info on it.
Highest return listed on the arcade site is 97%.
Also, is it worth it to put in the 3rd coin if the progressive is near reset ($1000)?
2nd coin = $500
3rd coin = progressive
Seems to keep variance low to stick to 2coins?
Why would you want to keep variance low when playing a -EV game?
You have a 98% return. To keep variance as low as possible, just write the casino a check for 2% of the amount of coin-in you plan to do and don't play at all.
They have an edge. Variance is your only chance of winning.
Quote: DRichMost Blazing 7's machines are what we call "Buy a Pay" meaning that more combinations pay when playing each coin. Check the paytable and see if the third coin makes other pays available. In either case it is still probably better to play the third coin. 98% doesn't surprise me at all for some $1 Blazing 7's. In the old days that used to be one of the best paying games in any casino.
98% sounds high. Any idea how often the progressive hits?
Quote: DRichMost Blazing 7's machines are what we call "Buy a Pay" meaning that more combinations pay when playing each coin. Check the paytable and see if the third coin makes other pays available. In either case it is still probably better to play the third coin. 98% doesn't surprise me at all for some $1 Blazing 7's. In the old days that used to be one of the best paying games in any casino.
I was told by Doug Reul, a highly knowledgeable AP, that the frequency of the top line hit was 16X16X16 = 4096 on these Blazing Sevens progressives. Pros played the dollar ones at about $1500. Meter strength has a lot to do with the play.
Quote: mickeycrimmI was told by Doug Reul, a highly knowledgeable AP, that the frequency of the top line hit was 16X16X16 = 4096 on these Blazing Sevens progressives. Pros played the dollar ones at about $1500. Meter strength has a lot to do with the play.
Interesting, thanks Mickey.
If each reel is 1/16 it should not take too much data to verify.
Quote: 100xOddsCasino is advertising 98% but I can't find any info on it.
Highest return listed on the arcade site is 97%.
If you have a 97% payback game and add 1% of the coin-in to the progressive meter, it is effectively a 98% game.
However, it lists a top payback of 97.18%. It also says that the jackpot resets at $1500 so I'm not sure if we are talking about the same machine.
If it was set to 97.18% and the jackpot reset at $1500, and it was $3 per bet, the game would be break-even at $1846.52. If it was set to 87.68% (the lowest payback listed on the arcadehistory page) the game would be break-even at $3013.88.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceInteresting, thanks Mickey.
If each reel is 1/16 it should not take too much data to verify.
Agreed. It's definitely possible it hasn't changed over the years, but I would clock them just in case myself.
Quote: tringlomaneIf the casino's paytable is anything like the one the Wizard analyzed here you will need to bet three coins because the relative payouts the non-jackpot prizes with 7s are also increased with the 3rd coin. The example he showed jumped the 2 coin return from 85.43% to 89.09% for 3 coins. That wasn't all due to the jackpot.
To be clear, I was talking about the Blazing Sevens three reelers, not the video line game that Wiz analyzed.
Quote: mickeycrimm
To be clear, I was talking about the Blazing Sevens three reelers, not the video line game that Wiz analyzed.
Right. Same concept does apply though. Betting less than max costs you more than just the progressive.
Quote: mickeycrimmI don't know if you guys have ever heard of Tuna Lund or not. He died a couple of years ago. He had a lot of knowledge about slot progressives. His team played slot progressives along with video poker progressives. I would occasionally see a team member on the $5 Blazing Sevens around Reno/Sparks/Carson City/Tahoe when the meter was above $7,000. I would have to assume the ones they played were the 97%'ers.
Right, that is why I think that we are talking about different machines. The page on arcadehistory says that the progressive starts at 1500 coins. Maybe it is mistaken, or maybe it is talking about a different machine, or a different setup on the same machine.
The one that you are talking about starts at 1000 coins, I think. If the jackpot hits 1 time in 4096, then a $5 machine at over $7000 (over 1400 coins) would add 1/10 of 1 coin to your EV, ie, over 3% on a 3-coin bet. So that would make sense -- that is the point that a 97% machine would become a good play.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceRight, that is why I think that we are talking about different machines. The page on arcadehistory says that the progressive starts at 1500 coins. Maybe it is mistaken, or maybe it is talking about a different machine, or a different setup on the same machine.
The one that you are talking about starts at 1000 coins, I think. If the jackpot hits 1 time in 4096, then a $5 machine at over $7000 (over 1400 coins) would add 1/10 of 1 coin to your EV, ie, over 3% on a 3-coin bet. So that would make sense -- that is the point that a 97% machine would become a good play.
Yes, the ones I'm familiar with the quarters started at $250, dollars started at $1000, and $5 started at $5000.
Quote: mickeycrimmYes, the ones I'm familiar with the quarters started at $250, dollars started at $1000, and $5 started at $5000.
The real question here is, if I see one in a casino, how do I know what the payout is set to? The jackpot might make it a good play if it's set to 97% but not if it's set lower.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe real question here is, if I see one in a casino, how do I know what the payout is set to? The jackpot might make it a good play if it's set to 97% but not if it's set lower.
That's the reason I pretty much steered clear of them. But one situation developed at the Cal Neva in Reno where I got to track the payback of their Blazing Sevens progressives. Everything is so computerized today and I haven't been to Nevada in 7 hears so I don't know if this is still applicable. You've probably occasionally seen someone with a clip board walking through the casino and recording the coin in/coin out meters. I was on a video poker play in the Cal Neva when two employee's were walking along recording the coin in/coin out meters. One was calling off the numbers and the other was writing it down. When they got to a Blazing Seven machine the woman looked at the top screen and started calling off numbers. I was curious as to how she could see the meters without opening up the machine. So I walked over and took a look.
They had scratched off just enough paint to where they could see the meters without opening up the machine. They had done this with other machines too. I got to track the Blazing Sevens for payback. They were returning only around 90% and the meter ran at just a half percent. So it was a no go.
In DRich's picture the meters are located in the lower left hand corner just below where it says "Slot Tickets." Of course the paint hasn't been scratched off in the picture.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHmmm, good to know. I wonder how common this is? I'll keep a lookout for it.
Not real common but it never hurts to look.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceQuote: DRichMost Blazing 7's machines are what we call "Buy a Pay" meaning that more combinations pay when playing each coin. Check the paytable and see if the third coin makes other pays available. In either case it is still probably better to play the third coin. 98% doesn't surprise me at all for some $1 Blazing 7's. In the old days that used to be one of the best paying games in any casino.
98% sounds high. Any idea how often the progressive hits?
I saw the actualy game today,.
the sign says 'UP TO 98%'
WTF does up to 98% mean?! do that mean when the progressive is at 98%, it's a guarantee hit?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe arcade history page also lists 1/4096: http://www.arcade-history.com/?n=blazing-7s-progressive&page=detail&id=45807
However, it lists a top payback of 97.18%. It also says that the jackpot resets at $1500 so I'm not sure if we are talking about the same machine.
If it was set to 97.18% and the jackpot reset at $1500, and it was $3 per bet, the game would be break-even at $1846.52. If it was set to 87.68% (the lowest payback listed on the arcadehistory page) the game would be break-even at $3013.88.
where does it say jackpot resets at $1500?
" The standard top pay (progressive is based on) would be 1500 coins."
I would interpret that as when it gets to $1500, it pays out?
if reset = $1000 and machine is set to 97.18%, then whats the % if jackpot = $1199?
the sign says 'UP TO 98%'
WTF does up to 98% mean?! do that mean when the progressive is at 98%, it's a guarantee hit?
Ballys has a sign like this on a bank of Wild Party machines. I always assumed it meant that only 1 of the bank had to be at the return level. Or is that something I saw on an Anthony Curtis Travel Channel show years ago?
Quote: 100xOddsI saw the actualy game today,.
the sign says 'UP TO 98%'
WTF does up to 98% mean?! do that mean when the progressive is at 98%, it's a guarantee hit?
What? No.
It means that the games return 98% or less. Just like when a store has a sale that says "up to 50% off". It means that some things are 50% off, and some things are less than 50% off.
Quote: 100xOddswhere does it say jackpot resets at $1500?
" The standard top pay (progressive is based on) would be 1500 coins."
"top pay" here means "top line pay". "Standard" means that's where it resets.
Quote:I would interpret that as when it gets to $1500, it pays out?
Your interpretation is wrong. Do you know how slot machines work? This jackpot is based on certain reel combinations. The reel combinations have to be random. You have the same chance of hitting it regardless of what its value is.
Quote:if reset = $1000 and machine is set to 97.18%, then whats the % if jackpot = $1199?
97.18% + ($199/4096)/$3 = 98.799%.
Quote: 100xOdds
WTF does up to 98% mean?! do that mean when the progressive is at 98%, it's a guarantee hit?
Is there a bank of them?
Then ONE within that bank will be the 98% long-term machine. Best of luck finding it.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice"top pay" here means "top line pay". "Standard" means that's where it resets.
Your interpretation is wrong. Do you know how slot machines work? This jackpot is based on certain reel combinations. The reel combinations have to be random. You have the same chance of hitting it regardless of what its value is.
97.18% + ($199/4096)/$3 = 98.799%.
I guess the reset amount can be controlled by the casino since it's at $1000 right now?
or is it a different machine than whats listed in arcade?
Quote: tringlomaneIs there a bank of them?
Then ONE within that bank will be the 98% long-term machine. Best of luck finding it.
yes, theres a bank of them.
oh man that's so freaking underhanded of them if they did that!
Quote: tringlomaneIf the casino's paytable is anything like the one the Wizard analyzed here you will need to bet three coins because the relative payouts the non-jackpot prizes with 7s are also increased with the 3rd coin. The example he showed jumped the 2 coin return from 85.43% to 89.09% for 3 coins. That wasn't all due to the jackpot.
so the 3rd coin for the jackpot = 3.5% of return?
so if 2 coin, then return = 98 - 3.5 = 94.5%?
thus 7/5 JoB (96.1%) is better for my weekly free slot play?
with Blazing 7's, the 1 coin-in prizes don't multiply as you put in more coins.
ie: 3 Bars = $20 no matter if you put in 1 coin, 2 cons, or max 3 coins
edit:
what do you mean "That wasn't all due to the jackpot"?
That is exactly what they do.Quote: 100xOddsI guess the reset amount can be controlled by the casino since it's at $1000 right now?
or is it a different machine than whats listed in arcade?
yes, theres a bank of them.
oh man that's so freaking underhanded of them if they did that!
You do realize that the meters don't track hand pays?Quote: mickeycrimmThat's the reason I pretty much steered clear of them. But one situation developed at the Cal Neva in Reno where I got to track the payback of their Blazing Sevens progressives. Everything is so computerized today and I haven't been to Nevada in 7 hears so I don't know if this is still applicable. You've probably occasionally seen someone with a clip board walking through the casino and recording the coin in/coin out meters. I was on a video poker play in the Cal Neva when two employee's were walking along recording the coin in/coin out meters. One was calling off the numbers and the other was writing it down. When they got to a Blazing Seven machine the woman looked at the top screen and started calling off numbers. I was curious as to how she could see the meters without opening up the machine. So I walked over and took a look.
They had scratched off just enough paint to where they could see the meters without opening up the machine. They had done this with other machines too. I got to track the Blazing Sevens for payback. They were returning only around 90% and the meter ran at just a half percent. So it was a no go.
In DRich's picture the meters are located in the lower left hand corner just below where it says "Slot Tickets." Of course the paint hasn't been scratched off in the picture.
I cant recall about Bally's but most older IGT machines if you get in real close and look in between the reels you can see the Coin in coin out meter. But if the machines has many different hand pays. It would be had to get and exact %. But if its on a UP TO bank then this would hep to narrow it down.
Downtown had some incredible Blazing 7s 98% and 2% move.
I played some outside of Vegas on a good play and was losing about about 1k per hr.
On the other hand I played 3 machines at one time and had all the trays and buckets filled with no room left to put coins.
Quote: 100xOddsQuote: tringlomaneIf the casino's paytable is anything like the one the Wizard analyzed here you will need to bet three coins because the relative payouts the non-jackpot prizes with 7s are also increased with the 3rd coin. The example he showed jumped the 2 coin return from 85.43% to 89.09% for 3 coins. That wasn't all due to the jackpot.
so the 3rd coin for the jackpot = 3.5% of return?
so if 2 coin, then return = 98 - 3.5 = 94.5%?
thus 7/5 JoB (96.1%) is better for my weekly free slot play?
with Blazing 7's, the 1 coin-in prizes don't multiply as you put in more coins.
ie: 3 Bars = $20 no matter if you put in 1 coin, 2 cons, or max 3 coins
edit:
what do you mean "That wasn't all due to the jackpot"?
Generally speaking yeah I would play VP for slot play since you said the bank was "up to 98%".
But what I meant was...when the progressive is near the minimum, it doesn't mean that the machine returns 98% for all three coins. It only returns 98% for the max bet, and 2-coins returns notably less because even lower payouts like 3 7's are increased more than 50% with the third coin.
Quote: AxelWolfYou do realize that the meters don't track hand pays?.
Oh, yes. I tracked a lot of coin-in/coin out meters on the IGT Visions. You could look past the third reel and see the meters on the machines made before 2000. It wasn't too effective on machines that had a lot of hand pays. But it worked well on machines like Cherry Pie and Diamond Mine. The only hands pays on the dollar Pies was for the top line hit or catching the cherries in the screen with two coins bet. But I had seen a par sheet on the Pies and knew the odds of the top line hit was 360,000.
The bad Pies showed an 88% return or less (hand pays not included. The good ones showed at least 92%. The very best I ever found were in Ameristar is Council Bluffs, Iowa, 97%. These were the old style Pies and you could literally play them just 2/3's full.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhy would you want to keep variance low when playing a -EV game?
You have a 98% return. To keep variance as low as possible, just write the casino a check for 2% of the amount of coin-in you plan to do and don't play at all.
They have an edge. Variance is your only chance of winning.
would you say the same if you're just using weekly free slot play?
@max bet, I only get 10 tries. at $2/bet, I get 15 tries. 50% more chances to hit
Quote: 100xOddswould you say the same if you're just using weekly free slot play?
@max bet, I only get 10 tries. at $2/bet, I get 15 tries. 50% more chances to hit
Don't you have to play to get weekly free slot play?
Anyway, if you get it every week, then IMO you should play it in the max EV way.
Old ones At Seneca were always going to $400-600, but the newer ones in Pennsylvania usually top at about $400-420. Most of the people hitting these will lose the money back, but casinos don't seem to want people winning to lose back. YET grandma and grandpa won't ever quit playing these things. It's sick and cruel how Shitty all the progressive machines are in a casino.
Also, the jackpot on these seem counter-intuitive, as $1199.99 is worth a lot more to hit then $1200, for W2-G reasons.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceDon't you have to play to get weekly free slot play?
Anyway, if you get it every week, then IMO you should play it in the max EV way.
I play e-Craps, but as of this year, free slot play isn't accepted on those machines anymore :(
hm.. $30 week free play
10 spins at max for a chance of $1000, 500, 200, 60,20,10,2
15 spins at $2/bet for a chance of $500, 250, 100, 60,20,10,2
30 spins at $1/bet for 60,20,10,2
ok, so try for the $1000 homerun at the cost of possibly getting nothing for that week's free play?
(I've gone 10 spins w/o hitting anything. at my 15th (and final spin), I got $20)
Quote: djatc
Also, the jackpot on these seem counter-intuitive, as $1199.99 is worth a lot more to hit then $1200, for W2-G reasons.
That is only true for those of you that don't report all of your income to the IRS. Lol
Anyway to determine return % by that?
Quote: AxelWolfOn the subject of the 1199 situation I find it ludicrous that they go after gamblers structuring, yet casino's are structuring with the 1199 thing. Not just on.25 games they do it on higher denominations
They are different issues. Structuring rules are meant to go after money laundering. The $1199 jackpots pretty much encourage tax evasion.
$500 in, only got 750 points (maxxed $3/spin) :(
only hit $250 worth of lines :(
250/500 = 50%
oh man...........................
kept dumping in $ because it was at $1198
Quote: 100xOddsgeez.. never playing this particular 98% slot again:
$500 in, only got 750 points (maxxed $3/spin) :(
only hit $250 worth of lines :(
250/500 = 50%
oh man...........................
kept dumping in $ because it was at $1198
Actually it's 33% (I assume you mean it's $1 / point, so you had $750 in coin-in and lost $500)
I suspect that you ran really bad. Even if a lot of money is tied up in the big payouts, very few slots are going to play that badly between jackpots, since too many people would stop playing.
Excuse me if this has already been answered. How do you know the machine you are playing is the one that's 98% Normally there is only one on the bank that is 98%? If it says "up to" No doubt this is the case. Anyways, even if they say 98% payback, well, I run into lies about payback percentages all the time. Only way you can be fairly sure its 98% is with a ton of spins.Quote: 100xOddsgeez.. never playing this particular 98% slot again:
$500 in, only got 750 points (maxxed $3/spin) :(
only hit $250 worth of lines :(
250/500 = 50%
oh man...........................
kept dumping in $ because it was at $1198
In my experience Blazing sevens has some wicked variance. It will really come down to how often you are hitting the red sevens. I have had sessions(playing multiple machines at once) where I was up many thousands with no jackpot. Other times I have dumped thousands playing one machine for not long at all.
Quote: AxelWolfExcuse me if this has already been answered. How do you know the machine you are playing is the one that's 98% Normally there is only one on the bank that is 98%? If it says "up to" No doubt this is the case. Anyways, even if they say 98% payback, well, I run into lies about payback percentages all the time. Only way you can be fairly sure its 98% is with a ton of spins.
In my experience Blazing sevens has some wicked variance. It will really come down to how often you are hitting the red sevens. I have had sessions(playing multiple machines at once) where I was up many thousands with no jackpot. Other times I have dumped thousands playing one machine for not long at all.
i asked my poker host that question. he said all were at 98%.
didn't know Blazing 7's had swings as bad as deuces wild. uugg...
OMG....NEVER EVER BELIEVE WHAT ANYONE AT A CASINO TELLS YOU. Unless you see REAL evidence (wouldn't even trust a hosts theoretical hold sheet)Quote: 100xOddsi asked my poker host that question. he said all were at 98%.
didn't know Blazing 7's had swings as bad as deuces wild. uugg...
There was recently a situation where a casino slot manager and other employees were asked something specific a few times over about a slot machine( this should have been logged and filed and approved with gaming). They all gave the same VERY WRONG MISLEADING BAD answer.
