books on beatable slot machines
Today I just started reading about slot machines, and there are tons of things I don't know yet. Please do point out my ignorance but be kind :P
The blackjack insider endorsed(?) this book, http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter_103_slots.shtml
and then there's this book by Frank Scolbete, http://www.casinocenter.com/advantage-play/
It seems to be talking about banking machines (accumulator) that have lower return while building up something and then give bonus rounds to reach back to normal house edge.
Here in this forum I found some threads about this kind of machines, but it looks like those were history now (like the Vision Series), due to the problem of 'bonus vultures'. Did I mixed up two different types of machines?
I'm really wondering if the book by Jerry or Frank is voodoo or not.
(It seems that Frank Scolbete did something not very welcomed in the craps board.)
Thanks for anyone who's willing to discuss this.
I actually started paying attention to this because I heard the Peter Liston's interview on GWAE.
It was fascinating.
Quote: Robert215Thanks.
I actually started paying attention to this because I heard the Peter Liston's interview on GWAE.
It was fascinating.
You should be warned the type of slots he played are not common in the U.S.. I also go over the same math on my site for these types of slots where the jackpot must hit by a certain number.
Quote: WizardYou should be warned the type of slots he (Peter Liston) played are not common in the U.S.. I also go over the same math on my site for these types of slots where the jackpot must hit by a certain number.
Liston was handed a huge gift on a silver platter. Mystery progressives are not that hard to figure out. While in Nevada all we had was 1% and 2% meters with mystery progressives topping out at $1000, he was playing for five and six figure mystery progressives with 5% and 6% meters. We just made a little money off the game, while he made millions.
The most definitive book on advantage slots is "Robbing the One Armed Bandits" by Charles Lund. I bought the book just to see what he knew. I didn't figure he could show me anything I didn't already know. But it turns out I did learn a few things from him. The book can probably be bought used for next to nothing on Amazon. Nowadays, most of those games are extinct. But that's not the point. Having the knowledge of how various banking game systems work is a big plus when you are analyzing new games for exploitability.
Sure, if you live in Australia, but Peter is a good guy, know him personally.Quote: WizardI haven't read those books so can't comment. I can endorse Million Dollar Slots by Peter Liston.
The above is all correct. By the way, the last time I visited the Gamblers Book Shop, Lund's out of date book was selling for $4, although guys like Mickey and myself may have learned a few things from the book, their were things where we disagreed completely with him. Many of what Charles learned in the book were from guys like mickey and me, but this is not a knock, many of us learned games from others, but many we figured out on our own. The greatest achievement and game he knew better than anyone else was the mouse maze at Bellagio, and he himself said he made the most money from that game. When that game was in existence, there was never a time I walked by or played the game when he or his wife were not playing it.Quote: mickeycrimmListon was handed a huge gift on a silver platter. Mystery progressives are not that hard to figure out. While in Nevada all we had was 1% and 2% meters with mystery progressives topping out at $1000, he was playing for five and six figure mystery progressives with 5% and 6% meters. We just made a little money off the game, while he made millions.
The most definitive book on advantage slots is "Robbing the One Armed Bandits" by Charles Lund. I bought the book just to see what he knew. I didn't figure he could show me anything I didn't already know. But it turns out I did learn a few things from him. The book can probably be bought used for next to nothing on Amazon. Nowadays, most of those games are extinct. But that's not the point. Having the knowledge of how various banking game systems work is a big plus when you are analyzing new games for exploitability.
The Sahara had a show, on the back of the show tickets were $10 Aces. A few of us and some compitition, including him and his wife would waite for the show to let out and look for abandoned show tickets or simply ask people for them. To many was never enough, so I hired a friend to help collect them. He was young (so was I) so he dressed up in a suit, so not to get carded. I Had him stand directly out side the show exit doors when it let out and simply hold out his hand. People just started handing him their show tickets, as if he was there to collect them. Charels and his wife didnt like this because they got shut out. I watched from the background as Charles wife alerted security and pointed us out.
BTW, while Lund was wasting his time picking off a few bucks here and there on the crappy maze game at the Bellagio.He missed the good stuff A few feet away, where people were makeing some real money, while quietly laughing at him.
Just a great story, made me chuckle.Quote: AxelWolfYears ago, Sometime in the mid to late 90s, I had a situation with Charles lund and his wife (so I was told it was his wife)
The Sahara had a show, on the back of the show tickets were $10 Aces. A few of us and some compitition, including him and his wife would waite for the show to let out and look for abandoned show tickets or simply ask people for them. To many was never enough, so I hired a friend to help collect them. He was young (so was I) so he dressed up in a suit, so not to get carded. I Had him stand directly out side the show exit doors when it let out and simply hold out his hand. People just started handing him their show tickets, as if he was there to collect them. Charels and his wife didnt like this because they got shut out. I watched from the background as Charles wife alerted security and pointed us out.
BTW, while Lund was wasting his time picking off a few bucks here and there on the crappy maze game at the Bellagio.He missed the good stuff A few feet away, where people were makeing some real money, while quietly laughing at him.
Amazing, but I remember those Aces at the Sahara now that you mentioned them. Still laughing, Lund, what a character.
When you say people were laughing at him on the maze game doing something else, are you referring to the around the world game in high denominations?
Quote: JIMMYFOCKERJust a great story, made me chuckle.
Amazing, but I remember those Aces at the Sahara now that you mentioned them. Still laughing, Lund, what a character.
When you say people were laughing at him on the maze game doing something else, are you referring to the around the world game in high denominations?
Care to share more details about these dead plays?
Quote: AxelWolfYears ago, Sometime in the mid to late 90s, I had a situation with Charles lund and his wife (so I was told it was his wife)
The Sahara had a show, on the back of the show tickets were $10 Aces. A few of us and some compitition, including him and his wife would waite for the show to let out and look for abandoned show tickets or simply ask people for them. To many was never enough, so I hired a friend to help collect them. He was young (so was I) so he dressed up in a suit, so not to get carded. I Had him stand directly out side the show exit doors when it let out and simply hold out his hand. People just started handing him their show tickets, as if he was there to collect them. Charels and his wife didnt like this because they got shut out. I watched from the background as Charles wife alerted security and pointed us out.
BTW, while Lund was wasting his time picking off a few bucks here and there on the crappy maze game at the Bellagio.He missed the good stuff A few feet away, where people were makeing some real money, while quietly laughing at him.
Axel, you're not the only one to have a situation with Lund. He had the attitude that everything belonged to him. He was a known non tipper too. He was the editor for a Las Vegas retirement rag called the Vegas Valley something or other. He also had a background in math.
By his own account he was 86'd from Bellagio. It started with a fill on one of the money maze machines. The attendant walked off after locking the machine top down. The top popped open. Lund didn't like it because it was a machine that couldn't be played and no one had the opportunity to leave him a play on it. So he called the attendants over and told them about the pop top. They thanked him for being such an "honest man" and handed him a couple of buffet comps for him and his wife. Those machine tops had a history of popping open. Every time one popped open Lund informed the attendents then asked for buffet comps. Being the ignoramus that he was he didn't know he was attracting unwanted attention to himself. They started noticing that he was there everyday. Him and his wife got the boot.
Now, being that he was the editor of this retirement rag, he was part of the "press." He called Bellagio execs and asked for quotes as to why he was 86'd....and what their position was on players who only played when the machines are in advantage mode. The story made the Las Vegas Review Journal. A Bellagio exec was quoted as saying they weren't comfortable with advantage players.
Lund was also 86'd from the Tropicana. An advantage player friend of mine, Tony, was working the dollar pigs at Tropicana. Lund was stealing plays from him. Tony would sweat a play, standing or sitting very close to a tourist playing the machine. When the tourist got up Lund would come flying out from behind machines and plop down in the chair before Tony could. Tony finally got enough of it. He finally told Lund that come hell or high water Lund wasn't getting the play. Now, Tony was well known with the cocktail waitresses and security. He was a big tipper. Lund stiffed them all. So who do you think security sided with when the Sh@t hit the fan. Lund was 86'd. He wrote a big article about Tropicana favoritism in that retirement rag. To end the controversy Tropicana removed the Pigs.
Quote: mickeycrimm
Lund was also 86'd from the Tropicana. An advantage player friend of mine, Tony, was working the dollar pigs at Tropicana. Lund was stealing plays from him. Tony would sweat a play, standing or sitting very close to a tourist playing the machine. When the tourist got up Lund would come flying out from behind machines and plop down in the chair before Tony could. Tony finally got enough of it. He finally told Lund that come hell or high water Lund wasn't getting the play. Now, Tony was well known with the cocktail waitresses and security. He was a big tipper. Lund stiffed them all. So who do you think security sided with when the Sh@t hit the fan. Lund was 86'd. He wrote a big article about Tropicana favoritism in that retirement rag. To end the controversy Tropicana removed the Pigs.
I hate it when someone nukes a good deal for everyone, whether it's something like this, or when they're just determined to self destruct and don't care who they take down with them. That's a real jerk play, right there. In ATC, we call that Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory.
What a great thread already. Thanks guys.
Will try to get Lund's book. I believe I will learn a lot even though it might be dated.
