Virtual Table Games are slots and Payback %

I wanted to know if anyone can help me with some information.


1) I learned that virtual table games are considered slots... so do they have a RNG and have a payback % like other slots?

2) What is a payback %? Is that when a slot machine is due and pays out a certain amount for the next player who sits?

3) Video poker has a return %/ payback %, which I don't quite understand. With optimal strategy, the video poker can get as much as over 100% however, I see some people lose money in these machine... so I don't understand how accurate that payback % is....?

1. They are considered slots primarily for taxation and reporting purposes. Often, jurisdictions that don't allow table games will allow these. Yes, they have an RNG. But all it's used for is to shuffle the deck of cards.

2. Payback % is similar to house hold but in reverse. No slot machine is ever "due".

3. The payback % is the amount paid back on average, and as you surmised, requires and is based upon perfect play.

DJTeddy, is it true that the rating on virtual table games is worse than real table games? My experience at various casinos would suggest that the comp % is total CRAP on virtual tables.

Actually I think its the opposite the rating on virtual table games are much better since they are considered slots.

So my next question is how are slots regulated? If say a state law requires that slots cannot earn more than 20% from slots, does that mean the casinos can "set" a percentage of when to collect and when to payout?

For example, a virtual roulette wheel spits numbers via RNG. But the machine has paid out too much. It has paid out more than it has taken in. So to make up for it, the machine was set to earn 20% for the casino, therefore, any new players playing on the machine WILL lose at the virtual machine until the 20% has been reached.

Quote: sakonmao

For example, a virtual roulette wheel spits numbers via RNG. But the machine has paid out too much. It has paid out more than it has taken in. So to make up for it, the machine was set to earn 20% for the casino, therefore, any new players playing on the machine WILL lose at the virtual machine until the 20% has been reached.

Not if it's a fair RNG. It will just play out and eventually will get back to making money because of the HE.

Quote: sakonmao

I wanted to know if anyone can help me with some information.


1) I learned that virtual table games are considered slots... so do they have a RNG and have a payback % like other slots?

They effectively have a payback percentage, but in my understanding of Nevada law (at least) any virtual game that uses visual components that are meant to simulate actual physical implements (ex. cards, dice) must have the odds reflect the odds of the physical game. IOW, if you are playing Double-00 Roulette, the expected loss is 5.26%.

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2) What is a payback %? Is that when a slot machine is due and pays out a certain amount for the next player who sits?

I just checked my Thesaurus, the word, "Due," is still not synonymous with, "Myth," but it should be.

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3) Video poker has a return %/ payback %, which I don't quite understand. With optimal strategy, the video poker can get as much as over 100% however, I see some people lose money in these machine... so I don't understand how accurate that payback % is....?

It's still Video Poker, not Video ATM, with optimal strategy, even someone with an EV of over 100% can still suffer staggering short-run losses....and that's with perfect strategy. The slight mathematical advantage that those who play perfectly will enjoy is expected to approach the mean, over time.

I don't kind understand the word "loose" slots. What does that mean? Is the payout/payback % better? Is that a change in the computer program of a particular slot to start issuing out better payback?

Quote: sakonmao

I don't kind understand the word "loose" slots. What does that mean? Is the payout/payback % better? Is that a change in the computer program of a particular slot to start issuing out better payback?

"loose" when referred to slots means the payout/payback %age is better than average. Most slot games have several payback settings that can be set at the casino's disposal. For things like penny slots, these will typically range between 85% and 95% payback. Slots truthfully quoted to be "loose" will be those set near the highest payback settings available for that machine. In the short term though, slots can do anything. You aren't guaranteed to win more money on a "looser" slot in any given gaming session.

Quote: Mission146

It's still Video Poker, not Video ATM, with optimal strategy, even someone with an EV of over 100% can still suffer staggering short-run losses....and that's with perfect strategy. The slight mathematical advantage that those who play perfectly will enjoy is expected to approach the mean, over time.

I remember playing on a FPDW machine and walking away $300 bucks out the hole and saying "WTF this is not full pay! My money!"

I think that is what is confusing me.

I don't understand the purpose of a slot being set at an 85% or 95% range when in fact the slot can pay out whatever. Just as Mission stated earlier, even with perfect strategy you can still lose in the short run and it supposed to reflect an average. And as you said tringlomane there isn't a guarantee that in any given session that any one person can win and that "range" isn't reflected by the ending of the gaming day, week, or month.

Quote: sakonmao

I think that is what is confusing me.

I don't understand the purpose of a slot being set at an 85% or 95% range when in fact the slot can pay out whatever. Just as Mission stated earlier, even with perfect strategy you can still lose in the short run and it supposed to reflect an average. And as you said tringlomane there isn't a guarantee that in any given session that any one person can win and that "range" isn't reflected by the ending of the gaming day, week, or month.

It's reflected in the long run, though. Also, with a higher return, you will have more short-run winners.

For example, you can look at the Quick Hits Platinum slot machines. The probability of Bonus Games, the probability of Progressives, and the overall hit rate are all the same, regardless of the return setting. How do you change the returns, then? You take some of the low paying symbols and change them to moderate or high paying symbols on the visual reel, it's that simple.

You have a certain hit rate with a bunch of low paying symbols, you plug through $100 faster than you would with some higher paying symbols and a higher probability of hitting at least decent pays. Some people notice stuff like that, though I imagine that many more don't.

The more intricate games with the flashy designs, sounds and graphics are designed, in part, to separate a player from his money faster, but the casino/manufacturers bank on the player enjoying that sort of game more. The American Idol and Sex & The City games are examples of these, the manufacturer has to pay to have that licensed to be able to use those things, and that will be reflected in what the casino pays for the machine to buy or lease, and that's getting reflected in the payout.

There are a couple of rules of thumb I would suggest if you want to play slot machines, actually, there's only one, but here are some secondary ones in case you don't care to follow the only rule.


THE ONLY RULE

Play Progressives only, and know or be able to roughly approximate when those Progressives will have you at an overall advantage.

Other Rules (For Playing Flat Tops---ie. non-Progressives)

1.) The higher the denomination, the better the payout will be, generally speaking. Play at the highest denomination that you are comfortable with while betting Max Credits...unless

2.) The paytable is what I call a, "Perfectly Graduated Payout." In other words, every possible result for two credits bet is simply the result for one credit bet multiplied by two, and the same for three credits bet, and there is no special payout, free games, scatters, or anything else for which you must bet Max Credits. In that event, play whatever amount of credits per spin you'd like to pay because it doesn't affect the return.

OR

3.) If your main concern is time at machine, and you don't really care about the return, then that could be a factor. For example, at 500 spins per hour, at $5.00 bet on a $5.00 machine with a 95% return, you expect to lose:

500 * (5 * .05) = $125 per hour.

Now, if you play at a $0.25 cent machine, three credits per spin, with a return of 91%, you expect to lose:

500 * (.75 * .09) = $33.75 per hour.

So, the return of the former machine is better, but you lose nearly four times the amount of money per hour.

4.)Whatever, "Big Hit," would mean to you could also be a factor in your decision, perhaps the $0.25 machine doesn't have any single hit where you would walk away, then you might need to play higher...if the jackpot's not good enough for you!

I play a little differently in a -ER game, such as Video Keno. I am every bit as happy to be betting $0.05/draw or $0.25/draw as long as I am getting the best paytable possible on the machine with no penalty for the small bet. I also don't care about winning money on that game, though, so anything is a big win if I match eight balls or more. I just enjoy the game and trying to match eight balls. Go to a parlor, cappuccino and a snack, put $5.00 in the machine and see what happens. I'd pay $5.00 for the cappuccino and snack elsewhere and they are free at the parlor, so why not?

Quote: Asswhoopermcdaddy

DJTeddy, is it true that the rating on virtual table games is worse than real table games? My experience at various casinos would suggest that the comp % is total CRAP on virtual tables.

I would assume that the comps are better on the virtual game for the same reason that comps are better for regular slots: There's no dealer staff involved. No staff, no mistakes, no payroll, more hands per hour, etc.

On the other hand, that only applies if you're betting the same as you would at a regular table. Virtual tables often have lower betting minimums, and gamblers generally play the lower limits.

Quote: sakonmao

I don't understand the purpose of a slot being set at an 85% or 95% range when in fact the slot can pay out whatever.

What that means is, if the machine were not random, and it cycled thru every possible combination once, at the end, the return would equal the percentage listed.

However, because it's random, then the return approaches that percentage over the life of the machine. At any time it could be higher or lower, but eventually, it gets close.

Quote: sakonmao

If say a state law requires that slots cannot earn more than 20% from slots, does that mean the casinos can "set" a percentage of when to collect and when to payout?

...So to make up for it, the machine was set to earn 20% for the casino, therefore, any new players playing on the machine WILL lose at the virtual machine until the 20% has been reached.

No. It's simple - there is no law/regulation that requires that slots cannot earn more than 20% (it's actually 25% in NV).

The regulations only require that the pay table is set to such that its statistically most likely payback is 0.75 or more.

So they only address its pay table. What the machine actually pays out is irrelevant.
It's also illegal to set a machine up in such a way, i.e. paying out a fixed percentage of what players put in. Games with such a mechanic fall under a different regulation title.

You spoke of certain slot machine paying out a fixed percentage...


this leads me to my next question... i've come across major and minor jackpot slot machines, where it says "must award at $50.00" and "must award at $500.00" penny machines. Are these the machines that fall under that regulation you speak of.