The POWER of Slots
Why are otherwise seemingly intelligent people drawn to their near-certain financial doom by these one-armed bandits?
Quote: MrVMost people must have heard that the odds are rotten when playing slots, but that doesn't stop them.
Why are otherwise seemingly intelligent people drawn to their near-certain financial doom by these one-armed bandits?
Intermittent reinforcement........reward the genius occasionally and they will keep coming back.
Quote: treetopbuddyIntermittent reinforcement........reward the genius occasionally and they will keep coming back.
Bill Bennett, Reagan's drug czar and author of many books including, "The Virtue of Morality", a smart guy, lost an estimated 8 million. He accomplished this feat by playing the 500 a pull slots. Intermittent reinforcement.
Quote: MrVMost people must have heard that the odds are rotten when playing slots, but that doesn't stop them.
Why are otherwise seemingly intelligent people drawn to their near-certain financial doom by these one-armed bandits?
The same reason otherwise seemingly intelligent people are drawn to near-certain financial (and emotional) doom by attending Mariners games. Because despite the cost, and the significant odds against you (or against the Mariners, as the case may be), it's a fun way to spend a few hours.
Except if it's opening day, the roof is open at Safeco, and it's about 45 degrees outside. That's not as much fun even with the garlic fries.
Quote: MathExtremistThe same reason otherwise seemingly intelligent people are drawn to near-certain financial (and emotional) doom by attending Mariners games. Because despite the cost, and the significant odds against you (or against the Mariners, as the case may be), it's a fun way to spend a few hours.
Except if it's opening day, the roof is open at Safeco, and it's about 45 degrees outside. That's not as much fun even with the garlic fries.
I am one of these people
Maybe Asians really do have a better grasp of math than North Americans.
Cultural differences: odd.
The lure is the humungous bait, not the minute chance of it.
Quote: MrVFunny how slots are the most popular game in America, whereas in Macau it is baccarat, with its much better odds.
Maybe Asians really do have a better grasp of math than North Americans.
Cultural differences: odd.
The Asians may have a better grasp of math but they honest to god believe the "board" reveals the next play only if you concentrate hard enough. Watched an Asian guy with 3 teeth playing 500 plus a hand. MONKEY!
Next time you play, pay attention to your cognitive and physical reaction when the second bonus symbol shows up with a resounding, bass-heavy, satisfying "BOOM", followed by a crescendo of sounds while the final reel keeps spinning an unreasonable amount of time. Didn't get the bonus after all, huh? But you will surely be hoping for that "BOOM" on your next spin.
It all comes down to that there even is positive reinforcement when you don't get paid at all.
Quote: MathExtremistThe same reason otherwise seemingly intelligent people are drawn to near-certain financial (and emotional) doom by attending Mariners games. Because despite the cost, and the significant odds against you (or against the Mariners, as the case may be), it's a fun way to spend a few hours.
Except if it's opening day, the roof is open at Safeco, and it's about 45 degrees outside. That's not as much fun even with the garlic fries.
Quote: slytherI am one of these people
After 7 years of being a somewhat die-hard fan (yes I know that's not long at all) I stopped paying attention to the Mariners about a month ago. I just couldn't invest anymore emotional energy in such a horribly-run team. I felt it was a +EV decision for me.
Sorry, couldn't resist continuing the off-topic tangent.
If I miss a royal flush, or a quad...that ONE card I was missing assuredly pops up in the VERY NEXT HAND!
Quote: aKaTIMSPEEDI've began to notice video poker has that same reinforcement...
If I miss a royal flush, or a quad...that ONE card I was missing assuredly pops up in the VERY NEXT HAND!
Yep! It's just brutal on multi-line, too. I held 3 to a royal the other day on a 10-play machine. 6 hands received 1 of the missing cards, in a 3/3 split. Gah! The damn flying spaghetti monster couldn't have given me both cards in one hand just once?!?
Quote: MrVMost people must have heard that the odds are rotten when playing slots, but that doesn't stop them.
Why are otherwise seemingly intelligent people drawn to their near-certain financial doom by these one-armed bandits?
I like the sounds they make, and the lights and colors.
I'm not going to be doomed by them, though. I only like them enough to drop some money, not all of it.
Quote: MathExtremistThe same reason otherwise seemingly intelligent people are drawn to near-certain financial (and emotional) doom by attending Mariners games. Because despite the cost, and the significant odds against you (or against the Mariners, as the case may be), it's a fun way to spend a few hours.
Except if it's opening day, the roof is open at Safeco, and it's about 45 degrees outside. That's not as much fun even with the garlic fries.
Oh hell, I'm a Pirates fan. You can't stop just because they've had 20 losing seasons in a row... what if you stopped and this year was the year?
Quote: aKaTIMSPEEDI've began to notice video poker has that same reinforcement...
If I miss a royal flush, or a quad...that ONE card I was missing assuredly pops up in the VERY NEXT HAND!
I held QJ off vs. QT suited a few days ago. And AKJ of that suit shows up...lol First time I have ever noticed that happening. Thank God I was just playing on videopoker.com at the time.
Quote: CanyoneroSlots are the practical implementation of behaviorism in the purest Pavlovian sense. The thing I find most striking about the whole thing are the sound effects. Clearly, a lot of psychological effort goes into the music and sound of modern slots, but it seems to go almost unnoticed. Especially the near-win is so effective thanks to sound effects.
Next time you play, pay attention to your cognitive and physical reaction when the second bonus symbol shows up with a resounding, bass-heavy, satisfying "BOOM", followed by a crescendo of sounds while the final reel keeps spinning an unreasonable amount of time. Didn't get the bonus after all, huh? But you will surely be hoping for that "BOOM" on your next spin.
It all comes down to that there even is positive reinforcement when you don't get paid at all.
I notice. I tend to stop playing quickly if I sit at a slot/video poker machine without sound. I also like the sounds of Super Times Pay poker more vs. standard Game Kings as well. But if either of them don't have sound, I'll tend to move fast. Whats sad is how many video poker machines speakers are blown. :(
Quote: tringlomaneI held QJ off vs. QT suited a few days ago. And AKJ of that suit shows up...lol First time I have ever noticed that happening. Thank God I was just playing on videopoker.com at the time.
I notice. I tend to stop playing quickly if I sit at a slot/video poker machine without sound. I also like the sounds of Super Times Pay poker more vs. standard Game Kings as well. But if either of them don't have sound, I'll tend to move fast. Whats sad is how many video poker machines speakers are blown. :(
I agree, the sound scheme from SuperTimesPay is awesome...hit a jackpot on one and listen to it :)
Plus, a lot of gamblers are escapist, and the slot machine is a safe and comfortable escape from reality.
Quote: MathExtremistThe same reason otherwise seemingly intelligent people are drawn to near-certain financial (and emotional) doom by attending Mariners games. Because despite the cost, and the significant odds against you (or against the Mariners, as the case may be), it's a fun way to spend a few hours.
Except if it's opening day, the roof is open at Safeco, and it's about 45 degrees outside. That's not as much fun even with the garlic fries.
Sorry. Couldn't help it. My g/f will be happy about it though. Also created a few new records. First ever game tying Grand Slam in extra innings by Seattle's Kyle Seager. Tied for most runs in the AL scored in extra innings. And the White Sox's manager, Robin Ventura, bailed early so he could catch a flight to attend his daughter's HS graduation.
| Team | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| CWS | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 2 | 7 | 17 | 0 |
| SEA | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 16 | 2 |
On the Wizard's machine you have a sense you could actually stay ahead for quite awhile, which is a lot more fun than the drain experience of their casino slots.
Quote: rxwineI played the Wizard's fruit slot the other day for quite awhile. It's set at 97% return. Sad to say, I can really tell the difference when I last played slots for quite awhile which was at Seminole Hard Rock in Tampa.
On the Wizard's machine you have a sense you could actually stay ahead for quite awhile, which is a lot more fun than the drain experience of their casino slots.
Sadly, I can even sense it somewhat in the short term it on 99%+ video poker vs. 96%+ video poker. Harrigan/Dixon also shows this for slots. It's on page 25 of the document, or page 105 of the journal.
http://www.nh.gov/gsc/calendar/documents/20091117_harrigan_dixon.pdf
Kevin A. Harrigan and Mike Dixon, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Page 25 relates to the detection by play of loose or tight slot machines and the players assumption that this demonstrates his gambling skill which can somehow be used for advantageous play, rather than the player's realization that purely random events are taking place and that "loose" or "tight" machines each work by taking the player's money in the long run just as the purely random events of a hot or cold blackjack table eventually take the players money irrespective of the player's perceived skill in detecting the hot or cold states.
I think the professor wants to deal with "T-Totalers" but forgets that he is in a bar dealing with people who drink and he wonders why they make an intelligent decision to get the most booze for the least amount of money. The professor would prefer everyone get up and march out to sign the pledge once he enters and starts banging on his Temperance Drum. Won't happen!!
The professor would prefer that the bar be required to state the amount of the alcohol in each drink rather than have customers be required to sample the various drinks in order to make a perhaps ill-informed decision. Well, the drinkers might like that too, but the bar owners do not favor it.
What the professor forgets is that his complaints boil down to "the drinker makes intelligent drinking decisions, but does not sign the pledge" well that gambler makes the same intelligent gambling decisions but does not get up and leave the casino prematurely.
Ofcourse most bar drinkers are after far more than mere alcohol and value such things as ambiance and camaraderie and potential for interaction with the opposite sex, so too are most gamblers interested in far more than mere payback rates and tend to value ambiance, camaraderie and potential for interaction with the opposite sex.
That some bar customers drink until they bump their chin on the foot rail is not much different than the fact that some casino patrons plunk every last nickle of their food and mortgage money into the one armed bandit tended by the scantily clad young lady.
Quote: MrVFunny how slots are the most popular game in America, whereas in Macau it is baccarat, with its much better odds.
Maybe Asians really do have a better grasp of math than North Americans.
Cultural differences: odd.
You should see the pachinko zombies...... I go to Japan often and am amazed at the ploppies. You can't even cash the balls in except for items. Most "gamblers" stick to mahjong though. Its more social, and the equivalent of poker. My grandma leases out a shop to mahjong parlor, and its packed from evening to morning time. During the weekday next morning people leave to go to work lol.
Yeah, like my Vietnamese blackjack dealer who exhorts me to Take Even Money!!Quote: MrVFunny how slots are the most popular game in America, whereas in Macau it is baccarat, with its much better odds.
Maybe Asians really do have a better grasp of math than North Americans.
Cultural differences: odd.
Or my Australian friend who is a firm believer in "Tails All The Way" during the Anzac Day festivities wherein Two-Up is legal throughout Australia, particularly in festive bars.
Or the shuttle bus driver in Biloxi to whom gambling means slot machines because she has no idea about table games and doesn't care to learn anything about them and thought the question "What do you play" meant "which slot machines do you play".
Asians grasp math? Perhaps. Its like the man who grasped that beauty parlors were really gab-fests under the hair dryers and so he installed a zillion hair dryers and made a mint in the gossip business instead of the beauty-parlor business. Chinese women play Mahjong all day long, every day. Sure laundry and cooking still gets done but the Mahjong never stops. Very profitable place to operate: Laundramat, restaurant and Women's Gossip and Mahjong Club. All under same ownership with appearance of separateness. That was one Asian who sure grasped math!
Baccarat may have a low house edge but its still as mentally taxing as pressing a red button. And Big Table Baccarat has "Traditional" Tie bet to start and end a shoe which is really a self imposed tax on the players. Math skills? More like charting skills from what I see. A bunch of people who like drawing the symbol for Monkey.
Quote: tringlomaneSorry. Couldn't help it. My g/f will be happy about it though. Also created a few new records. First ever game tying Grand Slam in extra innings by Seattle's Kyle Seager. Tied for most runs in the AL scored in extra innings. And the White Sox's manager, Robin Ventura, bailed early so he could catch a flight to attend his daughter's HS graduation.
Team 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 R H E CWS 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 0 2 7 17 0 SEA 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 0 0 5 16 2
August 5, 2001:
| Team | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| SEA | 0 | 4 | 8 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 14 | 17 | 0 |
| CLE | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 0 | 1 | 15 | 23 | 1 |
Old wounds still ache sometimes.
(Really, I promise not to derail this thread anymore.)
It's just so hard for people to realize things have changed from a having a shot to needing a miracle. If it were in black and white where the same machine was listed at 93% in 2005 to 87% now, people would have an argument to complain and a good reason to stop going because it would be obvious. But, it's a total mystery, so it takes longer for people to learn and in the process, they lose bundles.
Personally I hate the newer machines from the last 5-6 years and would never play any of them. Everything is so obvious how they're set to take it all quickly and rarely, rarely ever give a gigantic win. I just don't understand them, but I do understand the newer machines are doing a fabulous job of busting the rest of the people without ever giving them a chance to hurt the numbers of the casino. Eventually I think casinos might realize people won't play the perfect predatory machine, but people are so stupid anymore, I don't really have much respect for their levels of common sense. Their money is practically being stolen from them and they think it's entertainment playing for 15 hours losing 4X more than 5 years ago. The bottom line is slot players are by definition ignorant of the risk, but don't know for a fact by playing it's so much worse now. Some casinos just tighten up to make up for less play and just keep doing it and enough people come back.
My personal theory about slot addiction is people don't get hooked when they win, they get hooked when they lose a lot and win it back. Once this happens, it's hard for them to not lose it again without overemphasizing the likelyhood of doing it again.
I was there for the Memorial Day Weekend @ the JANUGGET and some folk were saying that VP is a good deal @ the JANUGGET as well as a mention of GSR. I just was not sure what machines were the right ones to play as far as the pay scales and points earned at either of these sites As well if anyone knows of any hotspots downtown Reno and the strategical areas of play I would as well appreciate that info. As I have moved to Susanville area from Arkansas just recently and am searching for a new strategical Gambling home.
Quote: onenickelmiracleWhen I first started playing in 2005, things were generally ok and you had a chance even playing slots. The thing is about slots is no matter what they do to tighten them, people never understand the reason they aren't winning the hits like they used to. It's really hard even with losing time after time, to just say a winning session isn't possible, let alone 2. The odds might be twice as hard, but the subconscious doesn't know it.
It's just so hard for people to realize things have changed from a having a shot to needing a miracle. If it were in black and white where the same machine was listed at 93% in 2005 to 87% now, people would have an argument to complain and a good reason to stop going because it would be obvious. But, it's a total mystery, so it takes longer for people to learn and in the process, they lose bundles.
Personally I hate the newer machines from the last 5-6 years and would never play any of them. Everything is so obvious how they're set to take it all quickly and rarely, rarely ever give a gigantic win. I just don't understand them, but I do understand the newer machines are doing a fabulous job of busting the rest of the people without ever giving them a chance to hurt the numbers of the casino. Eventually I think casinos might realize people won't play the perfect predatory machine, but people are so stupid anymore, I don't really have much respect for their levels of common sense. Their money is practically being stolen from them and they think it's entertainment playing for 15 hours losing 4X more than 5 years ago. The bottom line is slot players are by definition ignorant of the risk, but don't know for a fact by playing it's so much worse now. Some casinos just tighten up to make up for less play and just keep doing it and enough people come back.
My personal theory about slot addiction is people don't get hooked when they win, they get hooked when they lose a lot and win it back. Once this happens, it's hard for them to not lose it again without overemphasizing the likelyhood of doing it again.
I think the big thing is a lot of people across the country (like my mother) got hooked long ago when gambling was first being allowed outside Nevada when video slots were either non-existent or paid much better than today. :( If you're addicted, it will take a lot of bad results to make you want to completely quit.
And I think players get hooked by both winning and losing, then winning it back. Hell, seasoned problem gamblers get some sort of weird high by just losing as well.
Definitely, its "the action" that has the allure. The "big man in the elevator" on Monday morning is not the guy who made the most money but who had action on every darn game anyone else mentions.Quote: tringlomaneAnd I think players get hooked by both winning and losing, then winning it back. Hell, seasoned problem gamblers get some sort of weird high by just losing as well.
Someone who decades ago got as close to a One Armed Bandit as a movie that was shot in Reno, is now addicted to slots because the local Indians made them available and the memories are of youthful times when slots were on movie screens.
They sure do and an occasional free play mailer coupon helps ease the pain of adverse variance too. Sometimes a couple will "do the mailer" and make a night of it. If luck is with them at the start, they stay.Quote: hook3670and I don't care what Bob Dancer says, 3-4 free Grey Gooses that are normally $14 a pop do even the money side of it out!.
Quote: centuryI am currently searching for an updated version of a trip report for the Reno/Sparks Nevada area.
I was there for the Memorial Day Weekend @ the JANUGGET and some folk were saying that VP is a good deal @ the JANUGGET as well as a mention of GSR. I just was not sure what machines were the right ones to play as far as the pay scales and points earned at either of these sites As well if anyone knows of any hotspots downtown Reno and the strategical areas of play I would as well appreciate that info. As I have moved to Susanville area from Arkansas just recently and am searching for a new strategical Gambling home.
You can't go wrong with JANugget as a homebase in the Reno area..
Its actually harder to find NOT fullpay VP at JANugget, than it is to find fullpay...just look around and do your homework.
Quote: FleaStiffDefinitely, its "the action" that has the allure. The "big man in the elevator" on Monday morning is not the guy who made the most money but who had action on every darn game anyone else mentions.
Someone who decades ago got as close to a One Armed Bandit as a movie that was shot in Reno, is now addicted to slots because the local Indians made them available and the memories are of youthful times when slots were on movie screens.
You think that's bad? When I was growing up with Mohammed, he said, "Did you know your birthday is a full house?"
I said I guess I'm fucked.
I tried inserting Peter Griffin's image from South Park above and still can't get it right.
Quote: onenickelmiracle
I tried inserting Peter Griffin's image from South Park above and still can't get it right.
When using google search, hit the "View Original Image" button and link that. Is this the one you're talking about?
Quote: tringlomaneWhen using google search, hit the "View Original Image" button and link that. Is this the one you're talking about?
No, I like to maintain plausible deniability. In frustration, I may have tried using it just to get a pic to work, but I don't remember.
Thanks, I got it.
Was there this week, as I come in almost daily now. Some rumors are that JANugget has changed up some of the vp as for the comp/point ratio as well as pay scale. Any insight into this? So what should I be cueing into specifically?
Quote: onenickelmiracleMy personal theory about slot addiction is people don't get hooked when they win, they get hooked when they lose a lot and win it back. Once this happens, it's hard for them to not lose it again without overemphasizing the likelyhood of doing it again.[/q
I shoot craps and play some slots.
Until now, I've told myself I do it for a break from reality, as an
escape, basically as a form of non-coital adult fantasy.
Not so fast, big fella.
Is it fantasy, or in fact a purer, more "real" form of reality?
Is gambling a distillation and clean presentation of the sensations I
seek and crave to prove the reality of this world, and to clearly
establish my place in it?
Every time I win, I feel great; every time I lose, it sucks.
Neat, clean, pure...and oh, so real.
So I guess I am rethinking that old chestnut about gambling and
fantasy: maybe I am lured to the Siren-song Reality of gambling in
order to minimize the blurry, soft-edged feeling of everyday life.
Maybe I don't gamble to escape: maybe I gamble to be more engaged in
the world, to immerse myself in it full bore, to fight tooth and claw
for my (virtual, financial) survival.
Safer than prodding a grizzly with a broom stick."What, me worry?"
I don't know about wanting a woman after prodding a grizzly though.
It is perhaps why being greeted by Benny Binion meant so much too. Or sharing his chilli with you. He greeted you by name, you were somebody! He took your marker. Man, that meant something in the world. Of course you paid it back, no matter what!
What is the use of surviving the grizzly attack if word gets around town that you welshed on your marker?
You might have been pussywhipped in a poker game, but you still stood by your markers.
Quote: tringlomaneI held QJ off vs. QT suited a few days ago. And AKJ of that suit shows up...lol First time I have ever noticed that happening. (
Not that it means anything... but that happened to me one day at a casino and I took note of it. The next time I played at that casino ON THE SAME MACHINE when I was dealt QT suited with an unsuited Jack, I held the QT and hit the royal. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice....
That's actually the correct play on occasion when the progressive royal is high enough.Quote: AlanMendelsonNot that it means anything... but that happened to me one day at a casino and I took note of it. The next time I played at that casino ON THE SAME MACHINE when I was dealt QT suited with an unsuited Jack, I held the QT and hit the royal. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice....
