DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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March 16th, 2010 at 11:42:59 AM permalink
In the Wiz' Megabucks thread, I got off on a tangent, and The Wiz suggested I start a new thread. The following quotes are all from that thread.


Quote: DJTeddyBear

Does the RNG select the stop point of the three wheels indepentently, and then the computer calculate if the resulting symbols is a winner? I think not.

I may be completely out of my mind here, but this is how I think modern slot machines work: You hit the button which fetches a number from the RNG. That number indicates a win or a loss. If it's a win, it also dictates what type of win and for how much (Or a second RNG number dictates that). The computer then stops the wheels on the symbols that match the type and value selected.

Here's the tricky part:

If it's a loser, I REALLY think the computer does NOT have 'random' results displayed. I think the losing wheels will occasionally deliberately show a 'near win'. Not necessarily a near jackpot, but something, anything, that would screw with a player's head and encourage additional play.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: Wizard

Single-line slot machines work by randomly stopping each reel according to probabilities established by the slot maker. Each reel is independent, so the win is determined by the reels, not the other way. My page on slot machines tries to explain it.

OK. You wrote this while I was composing my prior email.

Does this mean the RNG stops the wheels WHEN it wants to (i.e. a duration of spin thing), or on a specific symbol?

I.E. Couldn't the jackpot symbol on two wheels be programmed to come up often, but on the third wheel to almost never come up?

Quote: Wizard

DJTeddyBear, I'm afraid you are dead wrong about how slot machines work. I would lay 1000 to 1 on that. I have a box of PAR sheets showing how they are designed. However, I don't want to sidetrack this into another discussion about how slot machines really work. If you want to do that, please start up another thread.

Quote: JB

It could be designed to do that, but not programmed.

For an overly simplified example, suppose each reel has 100 stop positions. Reels 1 and 2 both have 10 stops that correspond to the jackpot symbol, but reel 3 only has 1 stop that corresponds to the jackpot symbol. If the reels were designed this way, you would naturally see more near misses where the 1st and 2nd reels have the jackpot symbol, and not the third.

I wouldn't call that "programmed" though, because it is still random, it's just that the probability of a near miss would be greater with that kind of reel stripping.

However, based on John Robison's figure, I would guess that each reel has 368 stops, with only 1 stop per reel corresponding to the jackpot symbol.


Programmed / Designed ... Semantics.


JB, you ARE aware we're talking about a reel machine and not video, right?

If so, then I'll accept that the truth is a combination of what you're saying and the Wiz's assertation that I'm wrong.

Since the physical reel has only about 20 symbols, if it has 100, or 368, 'stops' they are probably not evenly distributed. If the physical reels are identical, the design can include a random position of which stop table applies to which reel, this way the 'near miss' doesn't show an inordinate number of hits on any specific reel.

Is any of this close to the truth?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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March 16th, 2010 at 11:46:37 AM permalink
Up here in nanny-state Canada, a placard on each slot machines at the casinos state something to the effect that the appearance of winning symbols close to a winning combination do not equate to being close to a win.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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March 16th, 2010 at 11:53:59 AM permalink
Ya know, sometimes I gotta open my eyes when I read.

Early in the MegaBucks thread, the Wiz referenced his Slot Machines Explained page.

Here's a telling portion:
Quote:

Note how there are clusters of the same symbol in a row. For example, stops 60 to 62 on reel 1 all are mapped to a 1 bar symbol. These will all be directed to the same 1 bar symbol on the actual reel. There are exactly 22 groups of like symbols on each reel, which is the standard number of stops on an electro-mechanical three-reel slot machine, known as a "Stepper Slot."

Also note that only stop 45 on reel 1 is mapped to the red 7 symbol. However the blanks above and below it have five positions each. This causes the often seen near miss effect, where the reel stops directly above or below the highest paying symbol.



So this anwsers all of my questions, except one: Can the table assignment be randomized so a symbol that actually HITS the payline, doesn't always hit on the same reel?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
Wizard
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Wizard
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March 16th, 2010 at 11:57:05 AM permalink
According to John Robinson the odds of hitting Megabucks are 1 in 49,836,032. That is (1/368)^3. So I claim that for each reel the probability it steps on the jackpot symbol is 1/368.

Although stepper slots generally have 22 actual positions on each reel, the jackpot symbol in Megabucks has a lower weighting than the average symbol. As evidence, my slot machine appendix 1 show the results of 3,976 spins on a game in Reno. Notice how the reels stop on the double red 7 about 1/6 as often as the blanks above and below it. As I understand it, there is a law that consecutive positions on a reel strip can not differ in weighting by a factor of more than 6. This is so that the "near miss effect" is not too egregious.

I hope that helps.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
cclub79
cclub79
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March 16th, 2010 at 12:06:47 PM permalink
I understand the Wiz's explanation now. So the strip could make it easy to look like you were close to a Red 7 (or Jackpot symbol), but if the actual symbol shows up on the payline, you indeed hit the correct stop on that reel, and do have a better chance (with the other stops unknown to you) than you did before you hit the "Spin Reels" button.

On the Wheel Of Fortune slots, they probably do have more stops for the Jackpot symbol on the first reel, because I do see it more often there than the other two reels. I guess that means if you get the WOF Jackpot Symbol on the THIRD reel (and not on the other 2), you really did come closer than ever to winning the Jackpot. You got the "hard" one, but not the "easier" ones.

One question...how is this different on the WOF with 5 Paylines, ($1 Machine, 5 credits/spin).
JB
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JB
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March 16th, 2010 at 12:18:27 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

WHO do slot machines work? OY. I noticed that typo two seconds too late.....


Fixed.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

JB, you ARE aware we're talking about a reel machine and not video, right?


Yes.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Since the physical reel has only about 20 symbols, if it has 100, or 368, 'stops' they are probably not evenly distributed.


You have nearly answered your own question...

Quote: DJTeddyBear

If the physical reels are identical, the design can include a random position of which stop table applies to which reel, this way the 'near miss' doesn't show an inordinate number of hits on any specific reel.

Is any of this close to the truth?


Suppose the physical reel strip contains each paying symbol once, separated by blanks, like so:

Blank #1
Cherry
Blank #2
Single-Bar
Blank #3
Double-Bar
Blank #4
Triple-Bar
Blank #5
Red Seven
Blank #6
Jackpot

(Blank #1 is below the Jackpot symbol because it wraps around)

This doesn't mean each symbol has an equal chance of being stopped upon. Instead, a random number is selected from a larger pool of numbers, such as 368. This random number from 1 to 368 is then "funneled" down to the appropriate symbol, such as:

1 to 44: Blank #1
45 to 79: Cherry
80 to 119: Blank #2
120 to 149: Single Bar
150 to 189: Blank #3
190 to 214: Double Bar
215 to 254: Blank #4
255 to 274: Triple Bar
275 to 314: Blank #5
315 to 324: Red Seven
325 to 367: Blank #6
368: Jackpot

This gives the following probabilities for each symbol:

Blank = 247/368
Cherry = 35/368
Single Bar = 30/368
Double Bar = 25/368
Triple Bar = 20/368
Red Seven = 10/368
Jackpot = 1/368

Using virtual stops like this allows the manufacturer to fine-tune the game's return by adjusting what range of numbers correspond to which symbol. And while this is a theoretical example that I just came up with, notice how all of the blanks have a probability of 40/368, except the two that surround the jackpot symbol: the one above it has a 43/368 probability, and the one below it has a 44/368 probability. Doing this will make the jackpot symbol appear to "miss" more often than the other symbols.

Edit: Man, I take too long reading, re-reading, and revising my posts. Missed the boat again!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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March 16th, 2010 at 12:41:27 PM permalink
Wiz -

I think I understand. This means that it is far more likely to have all three Megabucks symbols appear in the space below the payline, as it is to win it. (Or more likely on the 'wrong' payline, winning a minor prize, for multi-line machines.) And that if only one MB symbol appears, (regardless of position) it is equally likely to appear on any wheel.

Is that right?


When I first mentioned the 'near miss', and the possibility of the machine being designed to screw with a player's head, I was talking about something different.

Based on the sample 45 line reel tables on your slots explained page, I assume the three tables are not identical.

Let's say there is a combination that the designer wants to have hit 100 times as often as that MB jackpot. My pea-brain says to put it once on one reel tables, and ten times on the other reel tables. But that would mean that symbol hits a lot on those two reels.

Do the designers randomize the assignment of the table column to the reel so that in the scenario I just described, a loser hitting one or two of the three symbols is evenly distributed among the three reels?
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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March 16th, 2010 at 12:44:03 PM permalink
Quote: JB

Edit: Man, I take too long reading, re-reading, and revising my posts. Missed the boat again!

Me too! I started my above post half an hour ago!

(Now where's that damn laughing emoticon?)
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
cclub79
cclub79
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March 16th, 2010 at 1:08:19 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


Do the designers randomize the assignment of the table column to the reel so that in the scenario I just described, a loser hitting one or two of the three symbols is evenly distributed among the three reels?



I would think they can't really "randomize" anything like that, because they have to take into account all the payouts possible with different combinations. Three red 7s may be a big payout, but three ANY 7s also pays, as may 2 Red 7s and a Jackpot of Wild Symbol. I'm sure they have to get all of their ducks in a row exactly how they need to for the payouts they desire.

So now I'd like to know the EXACT chance of spinning the wheel on the Wheel of Fortune Machines ($1/3 credit/1 line). If that third reel has its own RNG and a fixed number of stops, how often do you think the SPIN symbol pops up?

Also, Wizard, do you mind saying how much you made (or lost) during your experiment described in the Slot Appendix?
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
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March 16th, 2010 at 1:26:24 PM permalink
Sorry to hijack the thread, but since the title doesn't specify reel slots, I will forge ahead.

My wife likes to play a WGM game called Goldfish, an animated video slot.
Every so often you get random Bonus plays. One of them puts about 7 bubbles on the touch screen, and you get to pick one of the bubbles. They range from 5x your bet up to 70x your bet, and then one bubble says you win ALL of the payouts from all of the bubbles.
Another Bonus game puts 3 turtles on the screen, and you pick one of the 3 turtles. Again, you win 3x your bet, 30x your bet, or 300x your bet (The numbers are off as I don't recall the exact multipliers).

My question is, Does it really matter which bubble or turtle you pick? Or is that just a sideshow thrown in for the player's amusement, and to make them think they are affecting the outcome of the game? If the player is truly determining the outcome, how would they know what the payout % is, since it can vary greatly based on whether players were picking correctly or not.
My suspicion is that the multiplier has already been decided by the RNG, and it doesn't matter which bubble or turtle you pick, it will be whatever the game has already decided. Then after you decide, the program just throws the remaining values on the screen to show you 'where' they were.
Anyone know for sure?
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!

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