Pre-Flop Raising on Pocket Aces or Pocket Kings out of Position in $1/$2 NL Texas Hold'em?

Playing $1/$2 No Limit Texas Hold'em today; I got Pocket Aces twice and Pocket Kings twice.... all four times I was out of position and raised to $10... each time I got no callers getting no value on these Premium hands.

I don't believe in limping in with Pocket Aces or Pocket Kings...however it's getting very annoying because most of the players at my Poker Room are very tight Pre-Flop and about 75% of the time that I have these hands and raise accordingly; everybody folds.

Any advice on how to play with these Pocket Pairs especially out of position will be greatly appreciated!

Some people like to limp/reraise in that situation but there are problems with that approach. If you always do it then the other players will catch on. Also, if it is a very passive table where people like to limp you could end up playing your premium pair in a 4 or 5 way limped pot and get into a lot of trouble postflop.

If everybody consistently folds to your raises you may be playing too tight yourself. If you occasionaly raise with more speculative hands you can set yourself up to get paid when you do hit a premium.

Quote: jml24

If you occasionaly raise with more speculative hands you can set yourself up to get paid when you do hit a premium.

I'm no Amarillo Slim, but this is good advice for making money on a tight table. Be sure to display your AA and KK when you do get them to establish credibility for the times when you don't.

Move up to a 2/5 NL game and raise the same amount preflop w/ AA or 2-7 off suit. You will get action.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

Move up to a 2/5 NL game and raise the same amount preflop w/ AA or 2-7 off suit. You will get action.

My skill level is somewhere in between a 1/2 NL and 2/5 NL. I am quite good at the 1/2 NL table but not good enough for the 2/5 NL Table.

Additionally, I prefer to play with a $150 starting bankroll which is decent for a 1/2 NL table (Min $100 - Max $300), the 2/5 NL table (Min $200 - Max $500) has a lot of good players with a lot bigger bankroll than me....I got my a$$ handed to me coming with a $200 bankroll too many times on the 2/5 NL table.

Hey, you have to play the players. Yeah, you need cards to win, but as others have said " Take advantage of that TIGHT image !

My bread and butter game is the 2/5. I buy in for 200 all the time and NEVER feel short stacked. 1/2 and 2/5 is a totally different game. 1/2 is a passive game where you wait and take chances on draws. AA preflop in 1-2 is dangerous because it doesn't allow for too much heads up action. What will you raise preflop to ($20?) to protect your hand. In 2/5 you can raise to 20 preflop and follow up the bet with continuation bet and take the bet down wiith another $40 bet.

Skill is not so much a factor in 1/2 vs 2/5 players. I have played 1/2 nl to 10/25 nl and did not notice much difference in skill level. One advice, if you buy in for 200, in a 2/5 nl, be ready to put all of it in on one hand on a draw, either by you or pushing on a draw or calling on a draw. It can be a short night or a chance to double up to $400. Next time you double up to $800, you can be comfortable at the table because you are only risking $200 of your own money but putting $800 worth of pressure on anyone who wants to challenge you on a pot.

Quote: AceCrAAckers

My bread and butter game is the 2/5. I buy in for 200 all the time and NEVER feel short stacked. 1/2 and 2/5 is a totally different game. 1/2 is a passive game where you wait and take chances on draws. AA preflop in 1-2 is dangerous because it doesn't allow for too much heads up action. What will you raise preflop to ($20?) to protect your hand. In 2/5 you can raise to 20 preflop and follow up the bet with continuation bet and take the bet down wiith another $40 bet.

I agree with you that the 2/5 game is completely different than 1/2. Playing 1/2 at my Poker Room is like playing the damn Slot Machines Post-Flop. Everybody calls with bullcrap hands and usually hits by the River! You can not scare anyone away after the Flop with a Big Raise/Re-Raise; whoever has the best hand after all community (5) cards are shown...wins.

2/5 is a real good game at my Poker Room; real strategy goes into play here because people have much bigger bankrolls to protect. My only issue is...most preflops always get raised to at least $25; I end up having to fold every pair that's less than Pocket 10's because $200 can't go that far paying $25 to see a flop.

All in with a small pocket pair, don't see the flop for $25. Limp in or all in with small pocket pair. You can do this with a buy in of $200 but not with a buy in of $500.

Quote: jml24

Some people like to limp/reraise in that situation but there are problems with that approach. If you always do it then the other players will catch on. Also, if it is a very passive table where people like to limp you could end up playing your premium pair in a 4 or 5 way limped pot and get into a lot of trouble postflop..

Almost everytime somebody limps in with Pocket Aces or Pocket Kings at my Poker Room; they get CRACKED!

Quote: jml24

If everybody consistently folds to your raises you may be playing too tight yourself. If you occasionaly raise with more speculative hands you can set yourself up to get paid when you do hit a premium.

I am definitely very tight in the beginning of the game...I notice I ALWAYS get up at least 50% profit (1/2 NL) of my buy-in..... then I usually get way too loose and get brought down to earth way too quickly. I need to find a balance.

Quote: CrapsForever

I don't believe in limping in with Pocket Aces or Pocket Kings...however it's getting very annoying because most of the players at my Poker Room are very tight Pre-Flop and about 75% of the time that I have these hands and raise accordingly; everybody folds.

Good. Collect the blinds.

Quote: CrapsForever

Any advice on how to play with these Pocket Pairs especially out of position will be greatly appreciated!

Raise hard.
Shove if you're in a tourney.

You know what hand I lost the most money on?
Well... actually, in terms of net winnings, pairs stand above the rest. But in terms of gross losses, big pocket pairs lead the pack as well. Not just for me. They are hands that rock preflop and are usually so-so after the flop.

You don't want to slowplay them. Collect what you can when you can. On a loose aggressive table, you might slowplay Aces. But only because you know someone will raise, and only so that you can reraise and take the pot there. I've slowplayed Jacks on rare occasion, but only against confirmed maniacs that are sure to raise.

Suppose you slowplay aces, and no one raises. You go to the flop and it comes 976 two-color. The guy with 96s stuck around, and now he has a flush draw, two straight draws, trips draw and possible two pair, every one of which beats you. You bet, he figures he still has the pot odds and calls - then he catches his draw... and lets you keep betting. What do you do?

Just to be 100% clear; I was referring to Cash games not Tournaments. I have about a 3 hour (Max) concentration threshold for NL Texas Hold'em so I don't play tournaments which tend to run for a long time.

You have to show the table that you're willing to bluff stupidly. They're obviously reading you like a large print Dr. Seuss book and it's you who are stuck in the grickle grass. Pick a 7,2 unsuited hand and raise. See if you can get to the river cheap and then show them that you're a loony. You have to put some doubt in their minds otherwise they won't bet into your powerhouse hands.

Always raise, end of story.
If you get no action, meh so be it.
Hopefully one day they will not believe....
Make them believers ;-)

Failing that find somewhere else to play.

Quote: CrapsForever

I got Pocket Aces twice and Pocket Kings twice.... all four times I was out of position and raised to $10...

That is five times the big blind, which is more than the standard 3x that I am used to. Usually when I see that happen, whether cash game or tournament, the entire table folds. To me, this is not a surprise.

If you are the first to enter the pot, try a raise to 3x BB ($6) and see if that changes anything. If there is anyone limping before you act, then add $2 for each limper to your raise amount. Since you said most players at your poker room are very tight, this might help.

I agree with most of the posters on here, and yet disagree with most of them on here... how can that be?? Well, different circumstances mean different actions. It sounds like when you're playing a tight table, raising can be to your disadvantage. The only players likely to call you are those who have higher pocket pairs, or hands like A-K, K-Q suited or the like. These are hands that only work for your post flop if the case Ace hits. Otherwise, if they hit their trips, you're pretty much doomed.

I find playing big pairs post flop on a 1-2 NL game is the toughest skill to master. I consider myself a decent 1-2 NL player, but this is an area I always struggle, especially on low boards. I know if someone raises me, they have me beat, but it's tough to lay the hand down anyways. It can be easy to say "well it's only X amount of dollars, let me take a chance" and you're so far behind it takes a miracle to catch up.

On a loose table, this CAN be tougher, as 5 people will call your $10 bet. In early position, unless the board is clearly dangerous (like 8-9-10 suited), you pretty much have to pot it, and depending on who calls you may be forced into a call where you are pretty sure you are beat. On a loose table though, you have a better chance of winning, as some people shove with worse hands or gut shot draws.

I don't tell bad beat stories, but rather stories that I won a ton of money on. My favorite was at Hollywood Casino in Lawrenceburg, IN. 1-3 NL. I was UTG with A-A, seat 3. The guy in seat 6 raised nearly 80% of the time. I cold called, had one caller, then he raised to $8, there were four callers after him, so when it got to me, I raised to $50. In between guy folded, seat 6 called, seat 7 called, and seat 8 called. (about $210 in the pot now). Flop was A-8-8. It hit me almost too big, I was afraid I'd get no action on it. I checked, seat 6 bets $100, seat 7 pushes all-in for roughly $250 more, seat 8 folds. I do my best DeNiro (wanting another 100 from seat 6), say "ugh, call" and seat 6 calls. Seat 7 had K-8, not sure what 6 had, turn river is K-K, so I win about $1000.

That was pure luck, but knowing that seat 6 was loose, I was able to maximize my hand against other loose players. If the Ace hadn't hit on that flop, I would have folded immediately with the 8-8 out there.

I make a big raise with AA regardless of my position. I would rather win just the blinds than risk losing to 78-suited.

AA does not give you a lock or guarantee you a win. You must limit your competition. A big raise will keep the junk out (hopefully) and limit your competition.

If you want to see the danger of not raising big with AA play limit holdem and watch how many times AA loses to a junk hand because the holder of AA can't protect his hand with a big bet.

I played 3-6 limit and then 4-8 limit last week for about 12 hours, and I think AA lost more than half the time. I cracked AA twice playing small suited connectors such as 3c 4c and 7h 8h making either two pair or straights.

And here's my favorite story about holding AA:

Im the big blind. Player 4 raises to 10x the BB. Player 6 calls, Player 7 calls. Other players drop out. Action comes back to me and I go all in with AA.
Player 4 goes all in.
Player 6 goes all in.
Player 7 goes all in.

We show our cards.

I have AA
Player 4 has KK
Player 6 has AK
Player 7 has AK

I'm counting the chips in the pot because it's all mine.... until the dealer puts a seven high rainbow straight on the board and it's a four way chop.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I make a big raise with AA regardless of my position. I would rather win just the blinds than risk losing to 78-suited.

AA does not give you a lock or guarantee you a win. You must limit your competition. A big raise will keep the junk out (hopefully) and limit your competition.

Actually, this used to be considered the case. However newer strategy has said that the biggest EV for playing AA is in a multiway pot. You just have to be prepared to fold, thats where most people go wrong.

Pocket 2's are easy, you either hit the flop or you dont. Newbies playing AA rarely ever see a flop that they hate, and there are very few turns and rivers that make the hand worse. Worse flop with AA? probably 7-8-9 suited?

I think some people also have problems understanding their equity. With AA you are rarely going to have more than 80% equity in the pot preflop, if you go on to win the pot; you have won 20% more than you should of. You now 'owe' 20% equity next time you get AA. In the long run, these things even themselves out. In the above situation, at the very best (you have the KK outsuited, and the AK are both offsuit) you are 91%, if the AK's are both suited your about 80%. So this is a situation where playing AA multi way is massive +EV, you wouldnt just double up, you would quadruple up. If you had just played AA vs KK your equity is still only 80% and you only have a chance to double up (forget the fact that KK was drawing dead, we wouldnt know that anyway).

NL 1/2 Texas Hold'em 5/20

Limped in w/ Pocket Queens - got killed when a suited 8/2 Pre-Flop hit Trip 8's on the Flop.

Limped in w/ Pocket Aces - lost a little when 5/6 Pre-Flop caught a straight.

Went all in w/ Pocket Kings instead of re-raising - Doubled Up

Raised $15 w/ Pocket Queens, went All-in after Flop - Doubled up

Lesson Learned - Always Raise with High Pocket Pairs, Always Be Aggressive!

Quote: WizardofEngland

Worse flop with AA? probably 7-8-9 suited?

Anything that contains no aces and might have just landed a set for someone.

Quote: WizardofEngland

So this is a situation where playing AA multi way is massive +EV, you wouldnt just double up, you would quadruple up.

Yeah, now let's see that really happen.
People are reluctant to call their whole stack into the pot when they have real money behind it.
When they do, they like to have a hand. A single pair is just a bluffcatcher, two pair is a hand.
People are even more reluctant to go all-in into a pot that already has two all-in players. They figure that if the original shover didn't have a real hand, the caller did. So they don't do it if all they have is a low pair.

I've had quad-ups, but all of them, at least live, took serious hands. Like my quad aces beating aces over kings, aces over tens and 10 to ace. Seen a royal beat 9 to king straight flush, three king-highs, a set of kings. Never lousy bluffcatchers.

Quote: P90

People are even more reluctant to go all-in into a pot that already has two all-in players. They figure that if the original shover didn't have a real hand, the caller did. So they don't do it if all they have is a low pair.

One of my biggest flaws is playing in multi-way pots. I would make the (ultimately) correct read on one player, only to fold because a 2nd player went all-in as well. I've folded winners because I got caught in thinking that I "had to be beat" if two people went all-in (or made and/or called down a big bet) ahead of me.

On a different note, one of my favorite plays is to limp with aces under the gun. I've only done this in tournaments at aggressive tables where at least one person is sure to raise. Just re-raise or go all-in after that and win the pot more often than not. Haven't done it in a cash game and I don't really plan to.

It happens - would be strange if it didn't. The whole reason for betting rather than calling in the first place is to get other players to fold winning hands.