Should I have went all-in?

Here's the situation. I was in a casino tournament, blinds are 200-400 (50 ante). Guy in early position raises to 1,200 and another in late position calls. I'm in the big blind with pocket kings and I re-raise to 3,500. Original raiser calls, other guy folds. The flop comes K-10-9 with two spades. I check, he goes all-in, and I call. He shows A-J of spades, spikes a queen on the turn, and the river is a blank. He has me covered by a little, so I'm busted out. He said "sorry" and said that if I had gone all-in pre-flop, he would've folded. See, I felt like going all-in would have been an unnecessary move on my part. Ultimately, I got what I wanted, but the cards didn't go in my favor. It's not the first time that someone said they would've folded had I gone all-in though. Is that what I should've done (or should do in the future)?

I would've done what you did. If you go all-in pre-flop, he folds but you don't get much value from a premium hand. If you make a medium bet, you choke out the guy hoping to get lucky and keep the action of the guy with a high-but-overmatched hand. Then you hit top-trips on the flop. It really sucks that the guy with AJ hit a hand with so very many outs and then pulled one, but that's the chance you have to take to maximize the value of your high pocket pair.

You did the right thing, although checkign post flop *might* have been an error.

But I highly doubt that the guy with Ace-Jack Soooooted, would really have folded.

I think with that board 90% of the time they are going all in with that hand no matter what your move would have been.

Totally the way I would've played it (not that that means much)...I always prefer to get more chips in with KK or AA rather than shutting it down with an overbet. Though I agree with the other poster that he's not going away with AJ suited. But if he had something like 88, 99 or 10 10 you would've scared him off with a bet.

That fact that he had so many outs is that way it goes sometimes. You were ahead after the flop when the chips went in - what more can you do?

YOU'RE not going to fold a set of Kings are you?

Nope. I wasn't overly upset by the situation. I mean, no one wants to see their opponent with a fairly strong draw, but I've taken way worse beats than that. I believe I could've gotten away from A-J suited preflop, but my game has improved over time. A lot of people are gonna stay in and see what happens.

How much was the All-In? I know post-flop it won't matter; he figures he might be 50-50 on the flop anyways. Was this player aggressive? Tight? How many players were left? How far along were you in the tournament? What was the average chip stack? What was YOUR TABLE average chip stack? How aggressive had you been playing? How would that player have viewed your raise?

Each situation is completely different. It's very easy to say after the fact what should have been done, but my guess is you're probably playing a bit tight, if player after player tells you they would fold if you had gone all-in pre-flop. Depending on the answers to the above questions, he may have been correct to call an all-in pre-flop. Certainly after the flop he likes his odds, even in the odd case that you hit your K (which you did).

Tough luck, better luck next time.

in my own opinion and i very well could be wrong is you re-raised before the flop then checked after the flop. I'm guessing Mr. A J suited took that as a sign of your hand isnt so strong or your bluffing and decided to go all in to scare you out of the pot. The fact he won the hand was luck because im sure once he saw your 3 K's he was sweating bullets.

I've been thinking about this most of the day (it's one of "those" days at work...). I think I'd have put the OP on QQ or JJ to raise preflop and then check the K-high flop like that. I'd personally have fallen for the check trap, and been at risk just like the real opponent. And, with my luck, the turn and river would both have been blanks for me:-)

I had about 13,000 chips, he had maybe 14-15k. Tournament started with 44 players, with only 4-6 players eliminated. So we both had around the average chip stack, give or take a few hundred. The table I was at was a full ten. I had just moved to that table, so I wasn't really sure of this guy's playing style. And yes, I did check hoping that he would make a move.

I would have pushed all in when you hit trips on the flop. You saw the potential for a flush and for a straight, so you have to make the player who is drawing think twice about calling an all in.

I usually go all in pre flop with KK to keep Ace-rags from playing, because whenever I get KK an ace always flops. LOL

So the player with AJ in early bets 1200 ( 3X BB ). There is 600 blinds and $500 ante's so he bets 1200 at a chance to win 1100 in
fold equity. If called he is getting almost 2 to 1 with his AJ and can see the flop, most like heads up.

He gets called and you raise it to $3500. 1200 + 1100 + 1200 =3100 =6600. Cost him 2300 to call, getting almost 3 to 1 and he has an Ace. If you raised all in preflop, I believed he would have folded. You had a chance to pick up 3500 in fold equity and if called all in you got KK. Slow playing not the smartest move at that time, but lets overlook that for the moment.

You flop a set and there are straight and flush possibilities on the flop. You CHECK ???? If he has a straight or flush possibility, you are giving him a free card ! Instead he has both, about the only real way he figures to bet or move in. I mean after all you did raise from bb, knowing you must lead into him the next 3 betting rounds. He has 9 spades plus 2 other queens top make a big hand. And there is 8900 in pot. He will improve about 40% of the time. In other words he is 3/2 underdog.

Assuming you had between 14-15 K you have about 10K left. He goes all in. If you have jj or qq you will likely fold. Forget AA.
10K + 10K + 8.9K he is getting almost 2 to 1 plus fold equity if you fold.

When you check in that position your opponent will usually only make a bet if he has favorable odds. To say nothing of it's too early in tournament to push all your chips in on a slow play. If you must, why not preflop, when it is harder for anyone to call you??

The texture of the flop can give you some guidance as to whether trap-check or bet. On a flop of K, 10, 9 then there are a lot of scare cards as well as cards to allow the opponent to catch up too easily. If the 4th card was a 3 say then you will unlikely get any further value from the player except you have given a free card.

If the flop was K,8,4 unsuited then you could consider a check in order to try and get the player to catch up or to show weakness and encourage the player to bluff.

With K,K verses A,J suited, you are a 67% favorite pre-flop. Even on that flop you are still a 66% favorite so your odds didn't change much, you were just unfortunate to lose the 2/1 shot.

Quote: Switch

With K,K verses A,J suited, you are a 67% favorite pre-flop. Even on that flop you are still a 66% favorite so your odds didn't change much, you were just unfortunate to lose the 2/1 shot.

Actually, as it's been pointed out, the guy was correct to push all-in, hoping the King would scare you on the flop. Had you led out and bet, you still may have gotten a call. While the actual odds show you were a 2:1 favorite, if he thinks that an Ace gets it for him, he just added three more outs. That would make it a near 50/50 scenario.

Given what you have shared, I think it would have been foolish to push all-in preflop, but checking that flop was the biggest mistake. If he makes a bad call (in the long run), that's HIS bad. But anybody who pushes chips in is trying to buy the pot, and your misstep allowed him to make the play.

The check also gives him a chance to get a free card. Plus I am not math proficient. But using rule of 2 and 4, he has 10 outs
and 4 X10 = 40% which is 3 to 2 and not 2 to 1 ?? Pot is laying him almost 2 to 1 plus you may well fold. I can see slow playing possibly preflop, but to check and give a free flush or straight card with that flop texture. NO WAY !! You said you had just sat at the table and had no read on the player. In that position I always give the player the benefit of the doubt until he proves otherwise.

and as Tiltpoul has stated if he thinks an A might win it for him, then he has 13 outs, making him the favorite in his mind.. Plus you checked and he has to figure in some fold equity.
If he had checked also , what were you gonna do when that q fell ? Pot was too big to let him draw out for free, versus small chance he would put you all in, I should think. And if a blank hits you can check again and he will also. Or you can bet and he is gone.

my biggest worry is that a player is holding JQ which is a popular hand to play, especially when suited.

Given KK my course of action would have been.

1. push all in pre flop and take whatever there is on the table
2. push after the flop with your set and hope it deters those with a flush or straight draw and hope no one was playing JQ

To be very cautious, call pre flop, see the flop, and fold if anyone bets given the flush and straight possibilities.

It was a bad flop for a good hand.

Quote: FourFiveFace

Here's the situation. I was in a casino tournament, blinds are 200-400 (50 ante). Guy in early position raises to 1,200 and another in late position calls. I'm in the big blind with pocket kings and I re-raise to 3,500.

That's not quite the right info. Blinds and antes are not as important as your stack and other stacks. In other words, what's your M and Q, are you the big stack or a short stack at your table. Is it early, middle or late in the tourney, how large is the tourney.
Anyway, you did provide some of it later.

Generally KK is an all-in hand in tournament situations. It's still good, but not great post-flop: it dominates Q/J flops, but any flop with an ace destroys it. With any dry flop, you don't know where you stand, and in a tourney you rarely have the chips to spare to find out.

KT9 was a strong but draw-rich flop. Depending on your position in the tournament and your relative stacks, you should have either kept trapping or shoved right there. With Q~=1, M~=15 (down to 10 now), early position, and a pot of about your stack now... well, neither can be dismissed instantly. Pot size, straight and flush draws, pre-flop action all call for shoving, but early position doesn't. If I was in a late position there, regardless of the action before me, I'd go all-in without a second thought.

In any case, since your stack was now about 9,000, and there was 9,000 in the pot as well, taking down the pot would have been a great outcome already. Adding another 9,000 from his stack, a better outcome, but not much better. And you definitely still had the fold equity. When you are an average stack, going even a little up is enormously useful.

That said, checking was not a good trapping move, as you had shown strength pre-flop. Your actions were very consistent with a flopped set. Making a small probe-bet would have been more consistent with a strong hand (QQ etc) worried after the flop, but it would have pot-committed you. At that, making a shove would also have been consistent with queens trying to represent AK, less so with a set. So you had very good chances of being called anyway after an all-in - and that's what you were looking for.

This means that the value of trapping was very small. It gave you only a modest possible increase in the resulting stack, only a small improvement in the odds of getting it over a shove, and had to be weighted against two possible nut draws.
So it all comes down to how badly did you need that last 9,000.

Would you have become the big stack of your table with 18,000? Would you with 27,000?
If the answers to these two questions are the same - either both yes or both no - the correct decision was to shove immediately.
If the answers are different, then I think both plays were acceptable - tourneys are loose, and becoming the big stack is valuable enough to contemplate big risks.

I pretty much agree with the poster above. Although getting value is important, it is also important in tournaments to take down pots when you can. Also, the time at which this event happened in the tournament is extremely important.

If you had around 13k in chips, adding another 3-4k chips to your stack would have been sufficient.

I wouldn't say you made "all the wrong moves"...You got exactly what you wanted, minus two draws out there. I'm not sure why you would ever check top set versus a straight and flush draw with a pot equivalent to your entire stack. Any guy with those draws is going to call you, as he would be getting 2 to 1 on his money.

The man said "Hey, I would have likely folded"...but I would think he was just as likely to call.

Either way, don't beat yourself up over it. You can woulda-shoulda-coulda for the rest of your life, but it won't change the outcome. Might as well as just use that experience in the future.

I beg to differ. No indication he will take a chance at pissing all his chips away with AJ suited to an all-in bet . Especially with a player who just came to the table and has shown no sign of being a maniac.

P90 beat me to it. Shove that flop. Maybe you don't maximize, but that flop is draw-heavy for the villian's probable range of hands given that he opened then called a 3-bet preflop.

Quote: slyther

P90 beat me to it. Shove that flop. Maybe you don't maximize, but that flop is draw-heavy for the villian's probable range of hands given that he opened then called a 3-bet preflop.

AMEN

I think I just got too excited about flopping a set and turned my focus to trapping him. I didn't slow down and think about the flush and straight possibilities, because I normally would bet in that situation.

Yeah. There's no need to be too trappy in tourneys, except very early on. The players are either waiting for an excuse to push their chips in, or treading lightly to outlast you and maybe sneak into the money. Not much in the middle.
If you remember Harrington's zones, in the red zone you shove any time you have either fold or showdown equity, in the orange zone you wait out to shove when you have both showdown and fold equity or near-nuts, in the yellow zone you wait to play hard with strong made hands or near-nuts. And only in the small green zone do you play with all the finesse and moderation of cash games.

If I was the other player, I would consider folding to a shove. Your preflop play was consistent with AK or TT. Too slow for QQ, could be it however, too fast for 99, but it is a tourney. It also fits AQ, in which case you'd be drawing to the same straight, so he had to charge you for drawing. His only guaranteed nut out would be another spade for 1/3 chance. With 18,000 in the pot, it would be a slightly +EV call for him, but he would be ruined if he lost. For all he knows you could have QJ, just defending your blinds, and then flopping a monster.
Most likely I would have called you, accounting for bluffing percentage, but folding is a viable option here as well, facing what looks like a strong made hand with draws to improve. A pre-flop raise followed by all-in also has a strong psychological effect, so players might fold without even doing all their math. Or if you were on the bubble, where survival is a concern.

This is one of the reasons not to slowplay kings, or really anything pre-flop, except against maniacs and in final head-to-head (any time you bet less than you're willing to risk given the odds, you're slowplaying).