Holdem

I have 2 questions here.

1. I am fairly new at playing holdem about 2 months i started playing online at bodog and learned alot, been slowing moving up in tournament standings actually place 5th place last week. won my buyin back plus $100. so not bad. but i have a hard time knowing what cards to play. for instance the hand i was eliminated in last week i had pocket kings i was short stacked having $17k in chips to the 60k average, so i saw a chance to double up and figured if i busted out i was in the money so eitherway was good.. my pocket kings lost to A6 in the hole and A on the flop my set never appeared :(. i went all in pre-flop. so what is a good book/site that can help me learn how to play hands better. i been on odds website and read the holdem section i dont understand probabilities and what not. so a little extra reading wont hurt i assume. also would like to be able to read people better.

i understand i am really new at holdem but i am enjoying the game far more than i thought i would and have even moved away for craps/bj which were my 2 favorite games til now

2. i want to go from tournament play to cash tables and want to know what to expect for differences. i see alot of people playing real loose in tournament play because chips counts are so high, do you see this in cash games as well or do players play tighter

Quote: kauboj

I have 2 questions here.

1. I am fairly new at playing holdem about 2 months i started playing online at bodog and learned alot, been slowing moving up in tournament standings actually place 5th place last week. won my buyin back plus $100. so not bad. but i have a hard time knowing what cards to play. for instance the hand i was eliminated in last week i had pocket kings i was short stacked having $17k in chips to the 60k average, so i saw a chance to double up and figured if i busted out i was in the money so eitherway was good.. my pocket kings lost to A6 in the hole and A on the flop my set never appeared :(. i went all in pre-flop. so what is a good book/site that can help me learn how to play hands better. i been on odds website and read the holdem section i dont understand probabilities and what not. so a little extra reading wont hurt i assume. also would like to be able to read people better.

First off, congratulations on your tournament placement! It's always exciting to place high in a tournament...

First off, the hand you described... What position were you in? How many chips did your opponent have? What position was he/she in? What were the blinds/antes at the time of the all-in? How many rounds did you have left? These are all questions you need to know the answers to if you want to be successful long-term in poker. From my guessing, you did exactly what you needed to do, and my guess is the A-6 was probably correct to call. Thus the luck factor in poker came into play, and you sadly came up short.

As far as a book, Super System/Super System 2 is probably the best book to read in the long-run, but the book focuses on a lot of different types of games. I would recommend a Sklansky book for beginners. There's a lot of them out there, but they are relatively easy reads with good information.

If you want to learn how to read people better, there is no better expert than Mike Caro. However, you're a newbie, so I would highly recommend learning percentages and how to bet first, as opposed to reading players. At low/mid level games, those skills are WAY more important that "getting reads." Eventually, it is important to know how to read players, but at this point, stick to the basics.

Quote: kauboj

2. i want to go from tournament play to cash tables and want to know what to expect for differences. i see alot of people playing real loose in tournament play because chips counts are so high, do you see this in cash games as well or do players play tighter

Tournament play and cash play are two TOTALLY different beasts. Many skills transfer from one to the other, but highly successful cash players are often not good tournament players, and vice versa. The biggest difference between cash and tournaments is the ability to get more chips if needed. Eventually, in a tournament, you will be unable to get more chips if you bust out. In a cash game, all you have to do is buy-in for more, and you're back in the game. For an undisciplined player, this can be extremely dangerous, but with a little control, you should be okay.

I'm not a professional; I don't pretend to be one. However, when I play, I stick to cash games for the most part (Omaha Hi/Lo is the exception, I will play a tournament in that game over a cash game any day.) You need to decide which you want to learn. There are advantages and disadvantages to both... if you would like, I can go into great detail in another post. If you want to play both while learning, I would stick to limit holdem for cash and NL tournaments. The limit cash games will teach you a lot about hand strength, while you can hone your reading skills and betting skills to the tournaments where no real money is at stake on a given hand. Both games are like night and day, so proceed with caution early on... but with some time, you should be able to transition to NL cash games with little risk.

Good luck on your endeavors. I'm eager to hear your ongoing progress.

I can't recommend a book, but suggest you find and join a poker league in your area. What I've found about leagues is that, when not in a hand, you'll usually get good answers to your questions.

Regarding the pocket kings, you played it right - although I sometimes call kings "The Ace magnet."

Late stages of a tourney where peeps are shoving light with trash, you're certainly not gonna get away from pocket kings preflop, so you did nothing wrong. A6 is light, IMO. But he's prolly just hoping to flop an ace, and he did. Them's the breaks. Congrats on the way things are going though, keep it up, and come to Vegas to play live.

i was under the gun in that hand and the call was made from the button. as far as rounds left who knows there were 5 players left i busted out in the last pay spot. blinds were 1500/3000 ante of 500. i had 17k chips and the chip leader who called i think had like 120k he would not have been hurt if my kings beat him but i felt my best play to double up. i had what 3 more big blinds and i would have been out on the post alone, so i said what the hell ill go for it. but that was not my worst bad beat

the week before i had AsKc heavy round of preflop/flop betting flop showed a AdJc3c i feeling pretting darn good the turn card came as a 9c stil feeling strong that the only way i am gonna really get beat here is if my head up opponent is carrying Ac, made the all in bet with my last 10k in chips (mind you i already have 69k on the board) turned the cards and she had the Ac sure enough and the river was the 2c. 9th place finish there. still in 2 months made the final table twice.

As far as everything else thanks for the tip i dunno if im ready for the cash games yet. but i dont wanna hang at low level tournaments for too long i want to really get good. but i know that takes time. so i figure ill save my cashout for bigger tourneys.

I do figure though the best bang for my buck is the tourney for now $65 buyin gets be 4 hours of play well worth it even if i dont cash i think i loose far more in blackjack/craps far faster

Zip i just caught your post. Yeah i felt it was the right move i got burned on flop i know it happens.. im not disappointed at all i just was hoping to catch the set. but glad to know that basically i made the right call. NEXT TIME! LOL

And yeah i actually plan on going for wsop not this year but next so i mught be coming to vegas. i have Harrah's Chester, PA that has a ring event this year but i am not entering it. and of course there is Ceasars AC also so i have 2 ring events within 2 hours of me. i just dont understand how the whole wsop works just yet.

Quote: kauboj

i was under the gun in that hand and the call was made from the button. as far as rounds left who knows there were 5 players left i busted out in the last pay spot. blinds were 1500/3000 ante of 500. i had 17k chips and the chip leader who called i think had like 120k he would not have been hurt if my kings beat him but i felt my best play to double up. i had what 3 more big blinds and i would have been out on the post alone, so i said what the hell ill go for it. but that was not my worst bad beat

So there was 500x5+4500= 7000 in the pot... you make it 17k to go (24k in the pot), button must call 17k to win 24k + an advance in the cash. The A-6 there is a marginal call since his odds are 2:1, he should be winning 8500 to make it the right call. On the button, it's a safer play, since it's unlikely the blinds will call unless they have a monster, in which case he's only out 12% of his chip stack with a fold. Again, statistically speaking it was a marginal call...

If he knew how you played though, it may be a more than correct call. UTG, he has to figure you for an A-Face or a pocket pair. 5-handed, it's unlikely you have Aces, especially as he's holding one, so that leaves High pairs, which he's 33% favorite (give or take), med pairs (which could be a coin flip to 33%) or a low pair (which is a coin flip). A-Face would be deadly as he would be only a 17% (give or take) favorite. That said, his average is around 40%, so 7000 is about right.

Quote: kauboj

As far as everything else thanks for the tip i dunno if im ready for the cash games yet. but i dont wanna hang at low level tournaments for too long i want to really get good. but i know that takes time. so i figure ill save my cashout for bigger tourneys.

If you're being genuine about what you say, then you are more than capable of handling yourself in the bigger tournaments. Discipline is huge in holdem. Tournament players have crazy swings, with big wins being huge, but a lot of losses to get there. Make sure if you're getting a book that it focuses on TOURNAMENT play... cash games operate completely differently.

That being said, you seem to have an interest in cash games, so I would recommend playing a low limit, limit hold em game (3-6 or 5-10). Read a book on low level limit play first, but the skills you learn there will force you to have a better understanding of how to play NL games better. You'll chase less flushes, drop smaller pocket pairs a lot easier, and understand the value of position so much better. Remember, poker rooms USED to only feature limit cash games. Now they can be tough to find, but they still teach valuable lessons.

Quote: kauboj

I do figure though the best bang for my buck is the tourney for now $65 buyin gets be 4 hours of play well worth it even if i dont cash i think i loose far more in blackjack/craps far faster

That's absolutely the right attitude. If you mean what you say, you will have a lot of success playing Holdem.

Quote: kauboj

Zip i just caught your post. Yeah i felt it was the right move i got burned on flop i know it happens.. im not disappointed at all i just was hoping to catch the set. but glad to know that basically i made the right call. NEXT TIME! LOL

And yeah i actually plan on going for wsop not this year but next so i mught be coming to vegas. i have Harrah's Chester, PA that has a ring event this year but i am not entering it. and of course there is Ceasars AC also so i have 2 ring events within 2 hours of me. i just dont understand how the whole wsop works just yet.

The WSOP is a brand, much like the WPT. Truthfully, the WPT tends to have more successful turnouts for their multiple event tournaments at host sites, since they were really the first to do it. However, the WSOP Main Event itself is by far and away the easiest access big tournament out there. If you sneeze in the right place, somebody will sponsor you $10,000 to go play in the Main Event.

Anyways, the Circuit events are a series of events sponsored over the course of about 10 days. They are larger buy-in tournaments with numbered event and satellites. The numbered events win "rings" and seats to the MAIN CIRCUIT event. This is kind of like the Main Event at the WSOP, except smaller. The buy-in is typically 1600, although there are some I believe that are 5000. Winning this event automatically gets you a seat into the Main Event, as well as a large cash prize. Occasionally, second place will also get a seat, but this depends on the number of entrants.

Each numbered event scores points on a year-long tally board covering all the Caesars properties. The more players, the more points, and the bigger the event, the more points. At the end of the "poker year" which is July-June, the top 100 point earners (or something like that) play in the Tournament of Champions for a prize of a cool million and bragging rights.

I've never played in a circuit event, but the cash games during those tournaments are off-the-map. Money is flowing like water, and there are so many bad cash players that anybody with discipline should be able to win, even putting bad luck aside.

thanks for the tips. ill keep them handy, i think for having ADD i do pretty good at not chasing hands... i fold probably 75% of my hand and try not to play too many ace/face + number unless they are runners. chasing the flush is something i try not to do but sometimes you get yourself in a hand and you gotta hope the flush turns or rivers up. my biggest thing is wanting to see the flop before i make any large bets... but these tourney players are make big bets pre-flop so i just fold out and let those people smack each other around.

i play delaware park and they have a 1/2 limit holdem i might go check it out maybe take $50 and see what happens like i said cant loose no worse than i do at bj or craps

Quote: kauboj

i play delaware park and they have a 1/2 limit holdem i might go check it out maybe take $50 and see what happens like i said cant loose no worse than i do at bj or craps

That's an excellent idea. If you want to be a student of the game, I would still recommend reading a low limit, Limit Holdem book; I'm pretty sure David Sklansky has written one, as it will really teach you the value of position and hand strength. Limit holdem, to me, is a lot like Blackjack... there is a correct strategy to playing every hand, and if you follow that strategy, then in the long run, you should be able to break even. The only bad thing about 1/2 limit is that the rake will kill you in the long run; there is no way to overcome that. However, my guess is the play is so bad that you should be able to maintain a long-term break even while earning comp dollars and cutting your teeth on the game.

Yeah cant get around the casinos wanting their fair share of the table. but you do build hours and get freeroll entries for earning 40 hours in a month and if you have the highest hours played you win cash

Quote: kauboj

thanks for the tips. ill keep them handy, i think for having ADD i do pretty good at not chasing hands... i fold probably 75% of my hand and try not to play too many ace/face + number unless they are runners. chasing the flush is something i try not to do but sometimes you get yourself in a hand and you gotta hope the flush turns or rivers up. my biggest thing is wanting to see the flop before i make any large bets... but these tourney players are make big bets pre-flop so i just fold out and let those people smack each other around.

Tournament play tends to be very different than cash play.

In tourneys, there rarely are hands that aren't raised pre-flop. And often hands that do not see a showdown.

In cash games, it depends on the table, but often there are hands where there are many limpers and no pre-flop raise. And rare for it to not go to the showdown.

Quote: kauboj

i play delaware park and they have a 1/2 limit holdem i might go check it out maybe take $50 and see what happens like i said cant loose no worse than i do at bj or craps

I've never played there, but most of the casinos I've been to have a minimum buy-in of $60 (max $300) for the $1/$2 game. And if you buy in for only $60, they'll pretty much peg you for a new player and play you differently / more aggressively.

So in short time, you might be down to, say, $20, then get a good hand, but not make much money because you'll be all in, etc.

It happened to a player at a table I was at yesterday. Spur of the moment trip to A.C.

At the river, there was about $40 in the pot. An old man had $37, but bet only $35. The younger guy got cocky and put the old man all in. We all gave him shit for wanting the old guy's last $2. He later admitted that he would have bet far more, if the old guy had more - which would not have been criticized.

There was no pair on board. The young guy had the nut-flush - an ace high flush. The old man had The Nuts - a straight flush.

The young guy then said, sheepishly, "I guess I got away cheap..."

Quote: DJTeddyBear

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I've never played there, but most of the casinos I've been to have a minimum buy-in of $60 (max $300) for the $1/$2 game. And if you buy in for only $60, they'll pretty much peg you for a new player and play you differently / more aggressively.

To be fair, he did say it was a 1/2 LIMIT game, where $50 should be enough for a good player to last a while. Of course, this is assuming he is playing correct, low limit strategy and being moderately tight aggressive, which most 1/2 LIMIT games are not.

Come to think of it, I would double check and make sure that it IS a limit game you are talking about... if it's NL, then $50 won't be enough at all.

I missed the part that it's a limit game.

Typically, the lowest limit game offered is $2/$4 while $1/$2 is usually the lowest NL game. (I HAVE seen both $1/$1 and $1/$3, but these were still NL.)

Note that in a $2/$4 limit game, the blinds are $1 and $2.

Kauboj,

Congratulations on your 5th place! Always cool to get into the money. It looks like you're playing NL tourneys which are very different from cash games (as has been pointed out by everyone else - please hear that loud and clear - VERY DIFFERENT). As far as reading to better understand strategy - I agree that David Sklansky is good. However, I would add anything by Dan Harrington and Daniel Negreanu's Power Hold'em Strategy.

Dan Harrington is one of the top players with a world class Chess rating background and Backgammon as well. His writing is easy to follow and a quick read...you'll need to highlight and go back over it as you gain experience - there's that many levels to his game.

Negreanu's book contains chapters by some of the best players with slightly different takes on the game. Some of it is for tourney's, some for on-line and some just Negreanu's "small ball" philosophy. Also an easy read, plus you can jump to what topic interests you most.

If you're shopping by just title on-line or in stores be careful - many of the books out there are aimed at Limit games not No-Limit. There is arguably as large a difference between these two types of games as between cash and tourneys.

For myself I've pretty well converted from cash games to tourneys almost exclusively. I like paying my entry fee and playing as long as possible and avoiding the swings that can occur at a cash table.

The wife and I are in AC on Friday...I'll play the Noon and 6PM tourneys at the Borgata. Let me know if you want to meet and play. It's sounds like you're ready to sit at a live table.

Quote: Woldus

There is arguably as large a difference between these two types of games as between cash and tourneys.

Ditto. The biggest difference is, because of the relatively limited betting / raising action, people tend to stay in with marginal and/or calling hands a lot longer. Therefore, it's a lot harder to bluff or be bluffed. So at the showdown, you better have a damn good hand.

Quote: Woldus

The wife and I are in AC on Friday...I'll play the Noon and 6PM tourneys at the Borgata. Let me know if you want to meet and play. It's sounds like you're ready to sit at a live table.

I got an email today. Showboat is having a relatively big tourney, with relatively small buy-in, 11/25-11/27. 11:00, $175+$25. Friday and Saturday it has a $20,000 guarantee prize pool. Sunday, $10,000 prize pool. There are also evening tourneys.

I may go on Sunday 11/27.

Showboat Tourney Email

My bad its a 2/4 limit, and 1/2 and 2/5 no limit.

yeah i am gonna stick with the tourneys for awhile. i figure i wanna give my self 2 years before i start entering a wsop ring event so i will just keep plugging away and keep my winnings for the entry fees to the bigger games..

but did wanna thank everyone again for the great advise.

Well another night of successful tournament play, after going from chip leader to short stack back to 2 way tie for 2nd highest chip count.... pot was chopped for 2nd place prize money pulling in $535.00 for a three way split. chip leader didnt want to chop so we gave him 1st place $935. After 2 hours of play to take the final to 4 players we were ready. 5 hours was long play.. gotta build up the stamiina if i wanna play in the big boy tourneys. lol!